61 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

The reason flamers don't shutdown 'Mechs is stunlock isn't fun.

That being said, flamers suffer horribly from implementation. Their potential is split between damage and heat when it should have damage mode or heat mode. They fire constantly when it should simple be a fire-effect-done-recharge like most MWO guns.In fact, you can't have proper flamers until PGI manages altmode firing weapons, much like the LB-X is missing half it's usefulness.

[Mister Blastman]

wanderer, on 16 September 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

The reason flamers don't shutdown 'Mechs is stunlock isn't fun.

Oh, don't worry--it isn't stunlock. Once they shut down, they are gonna explode! Watch my video.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 16 September 2015 - 03:35 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

wanderer, on 16 September 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

The reason flamers don't shutdown 'Mechs is stunlock isn't fun.

thats completely Wrong the problem is is Stun locks the Mech Equipped with it,

[Otto Cannon]

I'd like to see flamers as a weapon you can fire without generating much heat. The effect should be a small amount of damage similar to a machine gun with the same crit bonus (both should be increased to about 1.5dps imo), and reduce the target's cooling by about 20%. The heat effect should not stack past a single flamer, so using more than one would simply add damage but nothing else.

[wanderer]

Mister Blastman, on 16 September 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

Oh, don't worry--it isn't stunlock. Once they shut down, they are gonna explode! Watch my video.

I remember flamersplosioning people with crazed Hunchbacks in the past. Especially on Caustic.

Catch someone in the caldera and they would burn.

[Mcgral18]

So, some stats are in. Both mechs are 20 Heatsink Novas, with 12 Flamers equipped.

A Nova with 12 Flamers and 20DHS will overheat in roughly 8 seconds on Caustic, and 10 seconds on Frozen City.
-85 and +85 Degrees Centigrade.

A 12 Flamer Nova on Frozen City cannot overheat a 20DHS mech. It brought me to 45% heat, but even with cool shot, he couldn't push it any further without dying himself due to critical melting of... everything.

On Caustic, 12 Flamers can overheat (well, 90%) a mech without dying himself. 12 Flamers took me 7 seconds to reach 90%, and it took him a CoolShot not to overheat.


1 Flamer stats are different.
1 Flamer on Caustic took 30 seconds, and a fair chunk of the heat bar.

1 Flamer of Frozen took closer to 35 seconds, BUT he didn't even break 20% on the heat scale.


Playlist of videos here:
https://www.youtube....iWkQLqdwOXhOyQ_
Labelled, but not sorted properly.

[LordNothing]

for science!

[Mister Blastman]

LordNothing, on 16 September 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

for science!

For fire!

[LordNothing]

fire, science, same thing.

[JC Daxion]

Basically i would make it work like this..


Fire the flamer, it slowly adds heat to your mech.. (You slowly build heat like any other small energy weapon)


Effect on opponent. Small DPS.. As far as balance goes, i would think similar to machine guns?


Bonus effect of flamer. Any part the flamer hits, now has increased chance of Destroying a heat sink. Exact %.. that is for balance to decide.

This way, it still is in the spirit of a flamer, Concept, make the enemy get hot! But would not be a troll tool, to force mechs to shut down, or completely kill their ability to do damage.




Now this would put them in the similar lines of machine guns.. Machine guns for DPS and weapon slot crits after armor is removed..

Flamers, DPS, plus chance to pop a Heat sink..

Could add some flavor to both these weapons.. As i do think machine guns could use a little love too.. Perhaps add a little armor piercing to them

FYI, i kinda also think flamers should be back up weapons.. Perhaps limit the number that can be mounted? I dunno 2, 3 or 4? To me you could do a bit more with them, with out having to worry to much about massive boating on a couple of mechs.

Edited by JC Daxion, 18 September 2015 - 03:31 AM.

[WILL WORK FOR AMMO]

SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET
I MUST SAY SOMETHING

Mcgral18, on 16 September 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

A 12 Flamer Nova on Frozen City cannot overheat a 20DHS mech. It brought me to 45% heat, but even with cool shot, he couldn't push it any further without dying himself due to critical melting of... everything.

We replicated the test and some other things for Frozen City using a 20 DHS Direwolf and flamer Nova (both mastered).

(Click here for HTML5 users)

How did you manage to get your results on the 12-flamer Frozen City test? We were able to send the Direwolf to 90% in around 7 seconds with 12 flamers and unless its been changed recently, day/night do not affect heatsink properties on that map. Were both of you mastered?

Though I am for buffing flamers, I would be more interested in the disclosure of flamer mechanics. I feel that lack of information contributes to the perception that flamers must be boated in mass quantities to be useful, even in environments where competitive builds and players cannot be seen.

Obligatory comic sans.

[Mcgral18]

WILL WORK FOR AMMO, on 18 September 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET
I MUST SAY SOMETHING



We replicated the test and some other things for Frozen City using a 20 DHS Direwolf and flamer Nova (both mastered).
(Click here for HTML5 users)

How did you manage to get your results on the 12-flamer Frozen City test? We were able to send the Direwolf to 90% in around 7 seconds with 12 flamers and unless its been changed recently, day/night do not affect heatsink properties on that map. Were both of you mastered?

Though I am for buffing flamers, I would be more interested in the disclosure of flamer mechanics. I feel that lack of information contributes to the perception that flamers must be boated in mass quantities to be useful, even in environments where competitive builds and players cannot be seen.

Obligatory comic sans.

Maps supposedly have the same Temp, -85 C.


I'll also assume that the mech screen can only display 12 items, and the shooter has more than 10 Flamers?

My mech was mastered with doubled basics, not sure about the shooter. 20% cap, 15% dissipation (offsets the heat gain) could make a difference.

Maybe he wasn't cooled off fully when he started. Two plausible explanations.

[WILL WORK FOR AMMO]

Shooter had 14 flamers, but only used 12 of them during all the tests in the video except for the test involving 26 flamers.
[Smurfy link to build]

Overheat in 10 seconds is consistent, so its unlikely he was experiencing residual ramp-up or started with some heat (at least not enough to cause such a drastic difference in results). My friend and I initially hypothesized that the flamers were making contact with the ground, as we had noticed a number of patches ago that Nova weapons in the arms had issues converging on a single point closer than 50 meters. We tested targeting the leg in the video, but somehow managed to bring the mech to 90% a whole 330 milliseconds faster than usual (cause unknown, and needs more testing to see if the result is consistent).

What mech was being brought to the 90% threshold? We used a Direwolf, so it may be that the convergence issues were not as noticeable compared to a mech with smaller legs.

Edited by WILL WORK FOR AMMO, 18 September 2015 - 06:17 PM.

[Davers]

Mister Blastman, on 15 September 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

I love how flamers add heat to yourself when they are coming from the fusion reactor's own plasma. If anything... flamers should decrease overall heat slightly and cause power drain due to less matter in the reactor core.

Not really crazy about adding a whole new stat called 'power drain' just to have viable flamers.

[Otto Cannon]

What happens if you chainfire two flamers for constant fire but alternated between the weapons?

[FupDup]

Otto Cannon, on 18 September 2015 - 06:25 PM, said:

What happens if you chainfire two flamers for constant fire but alternated between the weapons?

The user doesn't generate any heat from chainfired Flamers...I *assume* that the target might not as well.

[wanderer]

At this point, I'd be happy with flamers being exclusively "heat guns" or dealing damage, as then they'd no longer be garbage at both.

Or, by some miracle we could finally fricking have competent weapons coding and flamers would actually operate as the dual-mode weapon they should. The fundamental concept of the MWO flamer makes it a junk weapon, and the only solution is to revamp it completely.

[Otto Cannon]

FupDup, on 18 September 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

The user doesn't generate any heat from chainfired Flamers...I *assume* that the target might not as well.

That's what I assume too, that you'd just get the craptastic damage with no real heat to either party, but I wondered if anyone had tested it to be sure.

[FupDup]

Otto Cannon, on 18 September 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

That's what I assume too, that you'd just get the craptastic damage with no real heat to either party, but I wondered if anyone had tested it to be sure.

I know that the user not generating heat is confirmed; all that needs to be tested is the target's heat.

Edited by FupDup, 18 September 2015 - 07:09 PM.

[Mcgral18]

WILL WORK FOR AMMO, on 18 September 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

Shooter had 14 flamers, but only used 12 of them during all the tests in the video except for the test involving 26 flamers.
[Smurfy link to build]

Overheat in 10 seconds is consistent, so its unlikely he was experiencing residual ramp-up or started with some heat (at least not enough to cause such a drastic difference in results). My friend and I initially hypothesized that the flamers were making contact with the ground, as we had noticed a number of patches ago that Nova weapons in the arms had issues converging on a single point closer than 50 meters. We tested targeting the leg in the video, but somehow managed to bring the mech to 90% a whole 330 milliseconds faster than usual (cause unknown, and needs more testing to see if the result is consistent).

What mech was being brought to the 90% threshold? We used a Direwolf, so it may be that the convergence issues were not as noticeable compared to a mech with smaller legs.

My mech was the 20DHS 12 Flamer Nova (mastered).


Heat Retention could be the culprit. Not sure how long those timers last...or even how that mechanic works.

Other situations convergence could have been an issue, but this one seemed firmly on the leg, from a safe distance (sub 20M being the trouble zone).

Edited by Mcgral18, 20 September 2015 - 09:06 AM.