56 replies to this topic

[Wibbledtodeath]

OK.

So if we are going to have a "complete" rebalance- and while we are testing, can Ghost Heat be removed and THEN the balance worked out?

I never played before Ghost heat was introduced- but now we have quirks (a visible balancing mechanism) can this not be used for balance rather than an unintuitive mechanism that requires ref to 3rd party websites to comprehend?

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 15 September 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Serpentbane]

Remove GH, yes....

[Greyhart]

yes it is cumbersome idea and difficult for people to understand.

this would also mean reworking heat and heat-sinks

[Livewyr]

If they could balance the weapons against eachother, we wouldn't need ghost heat.

[Goose]

The fail thing about threads like this is how they never mention what they are replacing GH with …

[Livewyr]

Goose, on 15 September 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

The fail thing about threads like this is how they never mention what they are replacing GH with …

Balancing the weapons...

[Noth]

Livewyr, on 15 September 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

Balancing the weapons...

Which won't fix the actual issue that ghost heat was meant to and actually does fix in some cases, boating weapons for optimal alpha strikes. Only changes to the heat system will do that, and is not mentioned in the OP.

[Livewyr]

Noth, on 15 September 2015 - 09:25 AM, said:

Which won't fix the actual issue that ghost heat was meant to and actually does fix in some cases, boating weapons for optimal alpha strikes. Only changes to the heat system will do that, and is not mentioned in the OP.

True, but it will go a long way in reducing the desire to boat long range weapons if they have an decreased rate of fire compared to their short range cousins.

As to how to fix it? I've come up with multiple ideas for more creative solutions. (And I'm not the only person to come up with good ideas for it.)

(We don't want to eliminate the alpha strike completely, it has a kind of charm, especially in a desperate last fight)
Example: Boated SRMs? Wildly increase the spread on all SRMs fired within .5 seconds or whatever.. (Call it an overload)
Example: Boated LRMs? Wildly increase their spread... (although with clan LRMs being chained already, this is kind of moot.)
Example: Boated ACs? Create a JAM chance on the reload after firing so many ACs..
Example: Boated UACs? Bump up the Jam Chance considerably...
Example: PPCs (if for some reason the heat doesn't deter you) Have a chance of misfire that causes some damage to your mech.
Example: Boated Lasers? Extend the burn time considerably.

There are so many creative solutions, tailored to the weapons, that make more sense than a random heat spike from firing 1 too many AC10s...

[pyrocomp]

Livewyr, on 15 September 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

True, but it will go a long way in reducing the desire to boat long range weapons if they have an decreased rate of fire compared to their short range cousins.

As to how to fix it? I've come up with multiple ideas for more creative solutions. (And I'm not the only person to come up with good ideas for it.)

(We don't want to eliminate the alpha strike completely, it has a kind of charm, especially in a desperate last fight)
Example: Boated SRMs? Wildly increase the spread on all SRMs fired within .5 seconds or whatever.. (Call it an overload)
Example: Boated LRMs? Wildly increase their spread... (although with clan LRMs being chained already, this is kind of moot.)
Example: Boated ACs? Create a JAM chance on the reload after firing so many ACs..
Example: Boated UACs? Bump up the Jam Chance considerably...
Example: PPCs (if for some reason the heat doesn't deter you) Have a chance of misfire that causes some damage to your mech.
Example: Boated Lasers? Extend the burn time considerably.

There are so many creative solutions, tailored to the weapons, that make more sense than a random heat spike from firing 1 too many AC10s...

Almost all that you mentioned relate to the things that will decrease DPS after you fired that nice 90pt alpha (and DWF can up that to 105 pt) in some poor guy. Plus, as you phrased it, random spike in burn duration will need same tables on the 3rd party sites. This exchanges the Ghost Heat to Ghost Slowdown.

No, thanks. Current heat system has no possibility to balance out alphas in any other restrictive way. If the Mech will be splitted into heat exchangeing components, then yes, GH will be redundant.

[Gattsus]

Kanajashi(?), the patch reviewer, had a good idea about gh, something regarding having a reactor instead of gh, so every weapon uses energy from this reactor which has a maximum amount and a replacement rate.

[pyrocomp]

Gattsus, on 15 September 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Kanajashi(?), the patch reviewer, had a good idea about gh, something regarding having a reactor instead of gh, so every weapon uses energy from this reactor which has a maximum amount and a replacement rate.

Put a better engine and fire as much as you like it. Not nearly good.

[lsp]

Goose, on 15 September 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

The fail thing about threads like this is how they never mention what they are replacing GH with …

Nothing? We don't need ******* ghost heat to begin with. Make it table top or don't make it. DHS should be redone too, so should the heat system. But they aren't interested in fixing core issues with the game, they just want to continue with their bandiad solution of "quirks".

Edited by lsp, 15 September 2015 - 10:44 AM.

[Wibbledtodeath]

Goose, on 15 September 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

The fail thing about threads like this is how they never mention what they are replacing GH with …

Well I kinda did really- Quirks. PGI believes it can balance fire power with with mobility, durability and Information warfare using quirks (Infowar needs more- but plenty of suggestions have been put up regarding this already). I am suggesting exactly the same process they are going through now- just without ghost heat in the mix. No extra mechanics to program in other than what they are already implementing - just turn off Ghost heat, balance out mechs according to their new (& old!) power potential.

Maybe as others have suggested a rework of the heat threshold/heatsink mechanic is needed. But it may not be (& I am not sure PGI really want it to go). Back when weapons were getting hit with global nerfs for balance it disadvantaged the little mechs disproportionately. Ghost heat was a solution to stop the bigger ones with uber harpoints from overboating. But quirks can do this selectively also (albeit not as progressively, but it would be more transparent).

To give PGI some credit- the Quirkening was actually pretty good for bringing under performing mechs up to a reasonable bench line (yes a very few became OP- but we also got some very unique role mechs and I think an overall increase in diversity). Now with more quirk flexibility why not try to remove ghost heat?

Ultimately the idea behind the re-balance is to have balancing mechanisms set so that PGI doesn't drive off STEAM recruitments with major changes in the future. If this is the case, Ghost heat (which baffles the heck out of new players, and turns off TT fans alike) either needs to go now- or we will be stuck with a (actually functional but highly unpopular/not very fun or transperent) additional balancing mechanism probably for the life of the game.

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 15 September 2015 - 04:07 PM.

[wanderer]

You could remove ghost heat- if you actually made overheating a negative earlier on.

Right now, there's no problem with cooking a 'Mech until you hit 100%.

[Wibbledtodeath]

wanderer, on 15 September 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

You could remove ghost heat- if you actually made overheating a negative earlier on.
Right now, there's no problem with cooking a 'Mech until you hit 100%.

Lol. Well I still have no problem cooking my engine in game.
There are lots of things that could or should have been done in the past (and even more opinions on what that should have looked like). But the past is exactly that and bemoaning it fixes nothing.

Really, Personally my favourite fix to ghost heat would be implementing size based energy hard points (small, large, undifferentiated) that carried penalties if the wrong sized weapon was put in them (e.g. Undifferentiated= any energy weapon goes without penalty. Small: large weapons get a heat penalty, Large: small weapons get reduced ROF). This could do everything ghost heat does and more- but would be intuitive and not overly restrictive.

Are there be better heatsink/heatthreshold designs- possibly (although I personally don't object to current heat sink implementation- have played MW games with different designs and they were fun also- not sure they were more balanced)

I am just not sure hardpoint/heatsink changes can be implemented soon.

But rebalance can reasonably done without ghost heat NOW. It is what is currently under development- so why not use it. If not, we are probably stuck with ghost heat for the foreseeable future.

(and on another tangent- Ghost heat is a bit like the Australian republic debate- most Australians wanted a republic, but as no one could agree on the form that would take it never happened/split the votes for it.
Similarly I think most people can agree we don't want ghost heat- but getting agreement on what the replacement would be is more divisive. However, this re-balance may be the last opportunity to drop it- if its not already too late).

Addition: Plus (if you are reading this PGI) Removing ghost heat is likely to be a popular move and may help with acceptance of the rebalance results

Edited by Wibbledtodeath, 15 September 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Livewyr]

pyrocomp, on 15 September 2015 - 10:27 AM, said:

Almost all that you mentioned relate to the things that will decrease DPS after you fired that nice 90pt alpha (and DWF can up that to 105 pt) in some poor guy. Plus, as you phrased it, random spike in burn duration will need same tables on the 3rd party sites. This exchanges the Ghost Heat to Ghost Slowdown.

No, thanks. Current heat system has no possibility to balance out alphas in any other restrictive way. If the Mech will be splitted into heat exchangeing components, then yes, GH will be redundant.

How do you get the "After" the alpha?

No.. just like what ghost heat does now, if you fire all of the weapons at once, you trigger their "Ghost in the Machine" effect on that attack... (ACs could jam on the first shot if you try and fire all 4 AC5s...)

The DPS gets lessened, spread, or canceled (depending on weapon) on the Alpha strike.

[TyphonCh]

I disagree. Ghost heat is a necessary evil to prevent boating. End of story.

[Wibbledtodeath]

Team Chevy86, on 15 September 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

I disagree. Ghost heat is a necessary evil to prevent boating. End of story.

You are probably right that it is the end of the story.

But also that it is an evil

Necessary? nah. Always more than 1 way to skin a cat.

[Duke Nedo]

http://mwomercs.com/...ily-ever-after/

[Gattsus]

pyrocomp, on 15 September 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Put a better engine and fire as much as you like it. Not nearly good.

That wasn't the solution he mentioned. in summary, the engine and the reactor are two different things. The engine manages speed/heatsinks, and the reactor max. energy output. Every weapon draws a certain energy from the reactor and every mech could have a different reactor, which can be tweaked for balance purposes. You can't draw more energy than what the reactor can output, otherwise weapons don't work. It has the upside that alpha strike is 'gone' as you shouldn't be able to shoot all your weapons at once, though maybe with a small delay, depending on numbers. It's straightforward, upfront, easy to implement solution. Though someone mentioned a(few) downsides that I can't remember, though nothing that can't be tweaked.