27 replies to this topic

[Hex Pallett]

Judging from Paul's post, seems like this new pass of quirks aim to address two problems: one, to include IW as a parameter for a mech's effectiveness, and two, to reduce the power creep/quirk abuse.

Let's talk about the quirk abuse, and how the F did we get here. Spoiler: it's because MWO's full-customization for mechs.

Lemme give you a recap how much trouble did it cause (and please follow through): MWO announced, mech loadouts are fully customizable. In the following year we had Splatcat, Streakcat, LRMpocalypse, hexa-PPC Stalker, JagerBomb, probably missed a few other things too. Sure there're other causes, but min-maxing through abusing the customization is IMHO the primary suspect, and lots of outlandish fixes had to be applied, most notably the Ghost Heat.

Then came the Clanners. "But we already gave IS full customization, how do we up the game for Clanners?" "How, about, you know, let them CUSTOMIZE THE HARDPOINTS?" Now the Clanners can min-max even harder! Gauss boat! C-UAC5 boat everywhere! Dual-gauss AND dual ERPPC! You get the point.

Then, to give IS an edge to counter that (plus the canon Clan advantages), we had the current quirk systems, which went out of hand real quick - I could bring my Hunchback 4G rapid-fire AC20 to a brawl against an Atlas and I'm probably gonna win.

And now Paul said the current quirk system is causing another wave of power creep. Paul, you're a good man, but are you seeing a trend here? Full-customization fundamentally encourages min-max power creeping, and for every big update that affects balance - the Clan, the quirks - you're PUSHING the power-creeping further and further.

So, before we do another balance run based on an arbitrary and flawed scoring system - which I will explain later - can we took a step back and address how much problem full-customization has cause, and maybe, just maybe, restrict the customization to a reasonable level? As to how - that has been talked about a million times, classify weapons, so IS small/SP/medium/MP lasers are class-1, LL/LPL are class 2, PPC/ERPPC class 3, etc, etc, and only same/lower class weapons can be installed to a given hardpoint, maybe a few exception for IS mechs like Locust, maybe remove this restrictions to Clan mechs - which still doesn't encourage min-maxing as much as the current Omni-pod system. THEN let's look at quirks, and mechs' physical shape and such, and give them quirks accordingly, because otherwise no matter how you change the quirks, it'll always be prone to power creeping, because the game fundamentally encourages it.

This whole quirk-repass is over-complicating the issue and a huge waste of time.

***

EDIT: Forgot explaining why Paul's scoring system is flawed.



Paul did not explain fully how the overall score is actually calculated, but I have my doubts: the effects of some of the determinants (speed, firepower, shape, etc.) to the overall effectiveness of a mech are not always additive, but are rather multiplicative, or even exponential. So you may wanna be careful evaluating a mech based on this.

Edited by Helmstif, 13 September 2015 - 07:49 PM.

[Otto Cannon]

We don't have full customisation, there are hardpoint types in fixed locations with limited crits.

If we also had sized hardpoints on top of that you'd just render certain mechs even less likely to be used and make it even harder to get people using a wide variety of mechs by compensating with quirks.

[Chuck Jager]

I see it more as the going against Darwin's theory and protecting the casual players. The ones who do not take advantage of customization equally ruin the game when they are on your team. It is kinda like telling your food that it is special and has a place too.

[FupDup]

Remove customization and some mechs and builds will still be better than others, the difference is just that those mechs and builds will be stock instead of custom. That's about it.

Some mechs are just plain better stock than others, and some guns are just plain better than others.

[Hex Pallett]

FupDup, on 13 September 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

Remove customization and some mechs and builds will still be better than others, the difference is just that those mechs and builds will be stock instead of custom. That's about it.

Some mechs are just plain better stock than others, and some guns are just plain better than others.

You're circumventing the issue here. I never said "remove customization", I said "limit it to a certain degree to minimize min-maxing" so we wouldn't have thinks like Jagerbomb or Direstar. Yeah you can argue those are goof builds, but NOT to those on the receiving end. No competitive shooter has ever allowed that kind of thing to happen.

[oldradagast]

Eh, the OP has somewhat of a point: Full customization does allow extreme boating of whatever the meta-weapon of the week may be. That being said, the game needs some level of customization or we're all stuck playing horrid stock mechs, many of which are unbalanced or useless.

I still say the main problem is pinpoint damage. That drives the meta weapons (anything but missiles, etc.) and wrecks mechs with poor hitboxes or a lack of high-mounted weapon hardpoints.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I dunno how limiting what can be built would improve MWO, I think that how the Heat System works is more of an issue, since the really high capacity and really poor dissipation favors play styles that group weapons to be fired together gaining a big heat spike and then returning to cover to cool as the most efficient way to run mechs. And how weapons converge doesn't help much either, plus they are out pacing Armor and Structure in terms of their increased rate of fire and damage output.

---

However, I'm curious to see if Hardpoints could be modified to emulate how MW4 allows weapons to be mounted.

For example, the HBK-4G would have 10 Ballistic Slots in its Hunch for the stock AC/20 and then could mix different combos of Ballistics up to those 10, such as 2 UAC/5s. Then the HBK-4H would only have 7 slots and Shadow Hawks would at most have 5 slots for most variants in comparison.

[Rebas Kradd]

Helmstif, on 13 September 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

So, before we do another balance run based on an arbitrary and flawed scoring system - which I will explain later - can we took a step back and address how much problem full-customization has cause, and maybe, just maybe, restrict the customization to a reasonable level?

It's out of the question. You'd be taking away builds that people have paid good money for. NGE all over again if they did that.

I agree with you that open customization makes it nigh-impossible to balance, but that genie is out of the bottle. It's never going back in. Best you can do is Ghost Heat and quirk mixed-hardpoint chassis.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 13 September 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[Havyek]

All previous incarnations of MW had pinpoint damage. So what is making MWO so much different?

Catering to poor players? Maybe.

IMO maps are a large part of the problem. Most of the previous maps in previous incarnations of MW had maps that were open with areas of cover. ALL areas of the map were usable. Matches were 30 minutes long, large and pretty much all weapon systems were usable.

Not so with MWO.
Several maps favour peeking and/or long range heavily (alpine and new forest colony) some maps are wide open for LRMs, some like River city make LRMs absolutely worthless (over kind of worthless).
We need some maps where a brawler can ambush from short range, or a ranged build can set up and poke, and a map that's large enough that there is more tactically involved then "run towards the spot we always run to and then do what we always do".

Also, FFS put something in place that allows someone to see what map we're being dropped on BEFORE the drop. Something like CW where you launch then have 60s to select a mech.

[Hex Pallett]

Rebas Kradd, on 13 September 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

It's out of the question. You'd be taking away builds that people have paid good money for. NGE all over again if they did that.

Not a valid argument. Splatcat, hexa-PPC Stalkers, you're saying those ain't builds that ppl paid good money for? Plus, if PGI remove the current quirks, should they give me a refund for my not-autoshotgun Centurion 9D or not-assaultgun Hunchback 4G that I no longer want?

[oldradagast]

Helmstif, on 13 September 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

Not a valid argument. Splatcat, hexa-PPC Stalkers, you're saying those ain't builds that ppl paid good money for? Plus, if PGI remove the current quirks, should they give me a refund for my not-autoshotgun Centurion 9D or not-assaultgun Hunchback 4G that I no longer want?

Sure, it's a valid argument. PGI doesn't have to give a refund, but people don't have to keep paying them for mechs, either.

A business strategy based on "I can do whatever I want because I already have your money and the NDA says so!" is not a valid one. And they should know better by now that constantly introducing wild balance swings in the game that fundamentally affect how mechs behave is bad for business when mechs are the only thing you have to sell.

[Andi Nagasia]

Helmstif, on 13 September 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

You're circumventing the issue here. I never said "remove customization", I said "limit it to a certain degree to minimize min-maxing" so we wouldn't have thinks like Jagerbomb or Direstar. Yeah you can argue those are goof builds, but NOT to those on the receiving end. No competitive shooter has ever allowed that kind of thing to happen.

Joke builds that dont work arnt the Problem, Who besides the B33F do you know uses the DireStar Effectively?
also OmniMechs Trade the Ability to swap out Engines and Upgrades for the Ability to swap hardpionts, TradeOff?

[XX Sulla XX]

Really its mainly just a balance problem with a few weapons. If that was address over all balance would not be that hard.

[Livewyr]

As has been stated "millions of times" if you limit the customization of mechs... you just eliminate chassis/variants.

If you do not believe me, look at the Timber Wolf vs the Summoner.
The TBR weighs 5 tons more, but that should not explain why you see 1 SMN in every 15 games or rarer. Why is it so rare?
Clan Omnis have limited customization, no engine, structure, armor, MASC, or Jumpjet changes.

The TBR can change number of JJs through omnipod switching, it has Endo and Ferro.
The Summoner has 6 locked jumpjets. It has Ferro, but not Endo.

It does not have nearly the podspace of the Timber Wolf, despite being only 5 tons lighter. Do you see where I am going with this?


Limit the hardpoint sizes and you achieve the Summoner effect, not with Podspace, but with weapon choice.

[Hex Pallett]

Livewyr, on 13 September 2015 - 05:46 PM, said:

Clan Omnis have limited customization, no engine, structure, armor, MASC, or Jumpjet changes.

Because those are arbitrary restrictions in a way to balance Clan against IS. I'm no lore nerd but I'm pretty sure those are not justified in BT canon (as the swappable engine/equipment for IS mechs). If we limit hardpoints by classifying them, why not then allow Clan mechs to be customized to the same level as IS mechs, structure and engine and all? I'm sure most ppl find the engine/structure/armor lock to be an annoyance.

Those are superimposed rules to gimp Clan mechs. Restrict hardpoints properly, then it's justifiable to unlock these factors. I for one find speed to be very important for effective combat, even more than weapons.

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Joke builds that dont work arnt the Problem, Who besides the B33F do you know uses the DireStar Effectively?

Doesn't matter. If the game rule can be abused, it will be. And trust me, Steam is griefer bloody HEAVEN. Is that the experience you wanna show to the influx of new players? One-shot grief builds? Direstar? Jagerbomb? Is that how you want them to spread the word? Outside of this community PGI does not have the best fame *ahem Transverse ahem*, you wanna keep the cascade rolling?

***

Look, ppl, I know this "customization restriction" is not a famous idea because that's gonna change the whole meta, which some of us thrived on. But FFS the whole quirk overhaul thing is gonna break the meta anyway, and it's not gonna solve any problem fundamentally.

Edited by Helmstif, 13 September 2015 - 07:21 PM.

[Davers]

FupDup, on 13 September 2015 - 01:29 PM, said:

Remove customization and some mechs and builds will still be better than others, the difference is just that those mechs and builds will be stock instead of custom. That's about it.

Some mechs are just plain better stock than others, and some guns are just plain better than others.

But then you could quirk individual variants without changing the performance of every other mech in the game. Maybe the Hunchback 4G's AC 20 is single shot, but the King Crab's dual AC20 is burst fire. Things like that. Then you could directly compare their performance to other mechs in the same weight class and role to see how they are performing.

I know we will never get that, and that customizing mechs is a big part of the game for some people. The Mechlab is too big to strip out now. But balance would be a lot easier if mechs were fixed. I don't know any serious Battletech tournament that allows custom mechs, unless it's a Build The Best Monster Halloween tournament (machine gun mechs for the win!).

[Andi Nagasia]

Helmstif, on 13 September 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

Because those are arbitrary restrictions in a way to balance Clan against IS. I'm no lore nerd but I'm pretty sure those are not justified in BT canon (as the swappable engine/equipment for IS mechs). If we limit hardpoints by classifying them, why not then allow Clan mechs to be customized to the same level as IS mechs, structure and engine and all? I'm sure most ppl find the engine/structure/armor lock to be an annoyance.

Those are superimposed rules to restrict Clan mechs. Restrict hardpoints directly, then it's justifiable to unlock these factors. I for one find speed to be a very important factor for effective combat, even more than weapons.

Wrong, those are restrictions placed on TT OmniMechs to Balance them against TT BattleMechs,
but what we have arnt True OmniMechs, and the Clan IIC mechs will be BattleMechs with Full Customization,

Helmstif said:

Doesn't matter. If the game rule can be abused, it will be. And trust me, if you go on Steam, it's gonna happen plenty. Is that the experience you wanna show to the influx of new players? One-shot grief builds? Direstar? Jagerbomb?

ok how about this the DireStar can only Fire 2 times before it dies due to over heating,
miss a shot thats 1 shot down, hit an Arm thats 1 shot down, its not a Meta Build, its a JOKE,

Helmstif said:

Look, ppl, I know this "customization restriction" is not a famous idea because that's gonna change the whole meta, which some of us thrived on. But FFS the whole quirk overhaul thing is gonna break the meta anyway, and it's not gonna solve any problem fundamentally.

Tech balance is coming soon, that will balance IS vs Clan more so than what we have now,
then we wont have to hear about weapon Quirks being the only thing thats balancing IS vs Clan,

[Hex Pallett]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

ok how about this the DireStar can only Fire 2 times before it dies due to over heating,
miss a shot thats 1 shot down, hit an Arm thats 1 shot down, its not a Meta Build, its a JOKE,

It's called griefing. Ruining other ppl's gameplay experience in a suicidal manner is the definition of griefing. It's a joke to us because B33f is lovely, not to your common pugs, especially those on the receiving end. No real multiplayer game should allows this level of griefing.

Not mentioning the notions of P2W. We know MWO is not P2W, but again, not to your common pug noobs, and there's gonna be a lot of them when MWO comes to Steam. Direwolf is, after all, the heaviest, most expensive Clan mech.

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

Tech balance is coming soon, that will balance IS vs Clan more so than what we have now,
then we wont have to hear about weapon Quirks being the only thing thats balancing IS vs Clan,

I for one am not sure PGI knows what the hell are they doing, as exhibited by the extremely abstract and possibly bulls*** point system Paul illustrated.

Edited by Helmstif, 13 September 2015 - 07:34 PM.

[Johnny Z]

The OP's main point cant be argued with really.

I think the main thing to take from this is that some of the wild imbalances like inner sphere vrs omni tech need to be looked at and anything else that can assist in making the hundreds if not thousands of variables easier to deal with.

I would like to see other additons on and off the field after the new sensors addition gets worked out, like flares and decoys or what ever. I hope they dont take forever getting this together.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 September 2015 - 07:38 PM.

[EmperorMyrf]

OP I don't think limiting customizations in the mechlab is going to achieve what you (and I) want, it's only going to limit the number of chassis' that can support minmaxed builds. would you be OK with the existence of boomjagers and direstars etc if they weren't able to alpha everything into one spot? I think all that is necessary for the game is a hard limitation on how much damage can leave your mech at a given point in time brought upon by some new mechanic (there have been multiple suggestions on how to do this over the years)