47 replies to this topic

[Necromantion]

Khobai, on 16 September 2015 - 11:40 PM, said:

Dont worry guys. PGI is going to make the Orion equal to Timberwolf by compensating all its firepower, armor, and speed shortcomings with infotech bonuses. The Orion's infotech will be over 9000. Anything it targets with its sensors will instantly explode.

BWAHAHAHAHAA yup.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 17 September 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

Obviously you have to normalize things based on hardpoints. Because mechs can easily have like 4-6 lasers but can only have like 2-4 UAC/5s. So based on hardpoint normalization the UAC/5 would have a base value thats about 50% higher than the medium laser.

But the dynamic battle value would still mostly depend on how much the laser is used in relation to the UAC/5. Eventually as the lasers battle value increases lasers will be used less and less and other weapons like the UAC/5 will get used more and more and as a result and things will start to equalize.

And whats wrong with that anyway? If medium lasers are used more than UAC5s, it means theyre considered better than UAC5s, because better weapons tend to get used more than worse weapons. Why shouldnt better weapons have higher battle values? That makes perfect sense to me.

It's because sometimes more common isn't ALWAYS better, for example there will always be more Medium Lasers than Gauss Rifles because of the sheer tonnage involved. However, one Gauss has a higher lethality than one Medium Laser, so that single ML being worth more than a single GR would be dumb.

[Duke ramulots]

The problem with balancing a Madcat and Orion that PGI don't seem to understand is that the 12 v 12 system is the thing holding them down. If matchmaking were based on mech value you would just have to remove the number of mechs from the equation and would end up with much more interesting fights of 15 v 8 and so on.

[Khobai]

Quote

It's because sometimes more common isn't ALWAYS better, for example there will always be more Medium Lasers than Gauss Rifles because of the sheer tonnage involved. However, one Gauss has a higher lethality than one Medium Laser, so that single ML being worth more than a single GR would be dumb.

I get that which is why I said youd have to normalize base values based on hardpoints and how many of one weapon you can take vs how many of another weapon you can take. Again that can all be done by pulling usage stats and seeing what the ratio of peoples loadouts are for medium laser vs gauss. Wouldnt be hard to approximate the base value of those weapons.

Once you get some base values that make sense you could implement the dynamic portion that increases or decreases the value based on overall usage of the weapon.

It really wouldnt be that difficult to implement a static battle value system. A dynamic battle value system would be a bit more difficult to implement but would prevent help prevent a single dominant meta.

Edited by Khobai, 17 September 2015 - 01:04 PM.

[Nick86]

Almond Brown, on 17 September 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

Well why stop there. Give the I.S. Clan XL engines and 2 slot DHS's etc etc. Then everyone who ever bought a Clan Chassis would be very happy surely.

Just wanna point out that A.) I bought a few Clan Packages and B.) The people who did buy them only bought them ahead of everyone else who didn't for a specific period of time. After that period, they are FREE when you choose to buy them for Cbills.
My point is, in every other MWO game, you can use MixTech but Mechs are still distinct from eachother in other ways. And yes, I mean full MixTech too.

Ultimately this is what WILL happen in one way or another - you will have a balancing of weapons and quirks to other abilities. The most solid way of doing this as several years of BS shows us... is to just bite the bullet, equalise the equation with unlocked technology, then add 'flavours'. Some mechs may be better than others.. some will just be better than some 'things' than others. Then, if we want to, we tweak from there... instead of rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance after rebalance.......

I should've put *failed rebalance..
Ah fuc* it.. 'Post'

Hell, throw in sized hardpoints too..

Edited by Nick86, 17 September 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[Surn]

Or you can balance the rewards instead of the mechs. If you pilot a timbergod, you earn less than you would with the same result in orion.

[Khobai]

Quote

Or you can balance the rewards instead of the mechs. If you pilot a timbergod, you earn less than you would with the same result in orion.

that fails to penalize someone who doesnt care about rewards... if you have billions of cbills like some people how is that a deterrent?

[Lykaon]

Throet, on 16 September 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:

Part of the reason this doesn't work is because the 'Mechs and weapons in MWO are not balanced around TT values. In TT, clan weapons are hands down better than IS weapons in every way. This is entirely not the case in MWO. Clan weapons in MWO are, in many ways, inferior to IS weapons. This means that, head to head, a single Orion actually has a chance at beating a Mad Cat(Timber Wolf). From my perspective, I would say that single Orion has a slight edge, due to the ability to mount shorter duration beam weaponry, and PPFLD ballistics... I have to note, for the record, that I do not have any Orions or Mad Cats(Timber Wolf) in my garage.

to much focus on weapons and not enough attention paid to the facts.

An Orion is not in way shape or form competative with a Timberwolf.

The Timber wolf has clan endo steel and clan ferro fibrous allowing it to have more available tonnage for weapons using 14 crits to do so..The Orion can only fit the Endo steel and have enough space for a decent weapon loadout also using 14 crits.

The Timber wolf has a Clan XL engine and a 375 rated one.The Clan XL is not a death sentence to mount because losing a side torso isn't instant death.If the orion wants to try and keep up with the Timberwolf's weapon payload it too needs an XL but gets the death sentence side torsos to boot.

Free CASE for clan mechs adds to survival potential as well.

Now let's look at those shorter duration beam weapons...

A clan laser has a longer burn time than it's inner sphere counterpart this is true.and you would have a valid point IF the clan laser did not also have higher damage and longer range.

Of intrest is the clan laser's higher damage.How much damage can be applied to a target by a clan laser during the burn time of it's I.S. counter part?

Inner Spere medium laser

Burn time .9 seconds
max range 540m
3 second cooldown
5 damage

Clan ER Med Laser

Burn time 1.15 seconds
Max range 810m
3 second cooldown
7 damage

So .25 seconds longer burn duration with 40% higher damage output.This means the clan er medium does more damage than it's IS counterpart during the first .9 seconds of the beam duration. Meaning the clan ER medium laser has higher damage output per second as well as longer range.

So where is the Inner Sphere advantage? is it because the Inner Spere can spend less time doing lower damage? this is not an advantage as I see it.