7 replies to this topic

[soapyfrog]

So here is my stab at bringing clan lasers somewhat into line; this is more a way to get them to have thier own unique feeling mechanic without having them be either overpowered or taking away their trademark long range.

The idea is inspired by EVE online autocannons or blasters, which have a short optimal range but a long falloff. It seems to me that it would not be that hard to implement.

Broadly, clan lasers should have short optimal ranges, similar to their IS counterparts. After that, damage should fall off slowly all the way out to their traditional maximum range.

e.g. Clan ER Medium Laser could have it's optimal range shortened to 270m while retaining it's max range of 810m. This would mean that it will do half damage at 540m. At IS Large Laser optimal range it would do 4.6, which means the IS Large Laser outperforms it decisively at mid to long range, albeit for 5 times the weight.

Naturally it is stil substantially better in raw damage and range than an IS medium laser, which weighs the same, so to balance that it would retain it's long beam duration and high heat. I would even increase the duration back up to 1.3s, maybe more.

This same treatment can be applied to all clan lasers, I think. What would be even better would be to have non-linear damage decrease, maybe with a sine function, to acheive a steeper drop off damage through the middle of the falloff range; with a sine function you could go even shorter with the optimal range.

Thoughts?

[Shlkt]

Solid suggestion IMO. Would obviate the need for huge IS weapon quirks.

[Tsangdhori]

Really like this idea, but I have one minor quibble over sin falloff possibly not being inherently intuitive. I think, though, that the benefits here far outweigh any momentary confusion among new players.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

A possibility. Just need to adjust the values. I was thinking of using set Max Ranges as the caps for Laser Weapons so for example: Large Laser Class 900 M Max, Medium Laser Class 540 M Max, and Small Laser Class 360 M Max.

And so modules and quirks would never raise the Max Range on Lasers, only extending the Range for their Full Damage.

Then Restore Damage and Heat values so C-LPL is 10 Dam and Heat, C-ERLL is 10 Dam, 12 Heat and so on.

Next have a standard Damage per Tic (the rates can be tweaked as necessary, this was my starting point):



C-ERLL
10 Damage, 12 Heat
2.60 Beam Duration
750 M Full Damage, Max Range 900 M

IS ERLL
8 Damage, 10 Heat
2.08 Duration
657 M Full Damage, Max Range 900 M

IS LL
8 Damage, 8 Heat
1.44 Beam Duration
450 M Full Damage, Max Range 900 M

C-LPL
10 Damage, 10 Heat
1.00 Beam Duration
600 M Full Damage, Max Range 900 M

IS LPL
9 Damage, 10 Heat
0.90 Beam Duration
365 M Full Damage, Max Range 900 M

C-ERML
7 Damage, 5 Heat
1.82 Beam Duration
450 M Full Damage, Max Range 540 M

IS ML
5 Damage, 3 Heat
0.90 Beam Duration
270 M Full Damage, Max Range 540 M

C-MPL
7 Damage, 4 Heat
0.70 Beam Duration
360 M Full Damage, Max Range 540 M

IS MPL
6 Damage, 4 Heat
0.60 Beam Duration
220 M Full Damage, Max Range 540 M

C-ERSL
5 Damage, 3 Heat
1.30 Beam Duration
180 M Full Damage, Max Range 360 M

C-SPL
3 Damage, 2 Heat
0.30 Beam Duration
180 M Full Damage, Max Range 360 M

IS SL
3 Damage, 1 Heat
0.54 Beam Duration
135 M Full Damage, Max Range 360 M

IS SPL
3 Damage, 2 Heat
0.30 Beam Duration
110 M Full Damage, Max Range 360 M

So these values can be tweaked as necessary, but I think a combination of longer beam Duration and set Max Ranges would be good. And could then be further modified by Fast Fire, Modules and Quirks.

The questions are then, what ranges should full damage be applied, and what value for beam duration is too long for that extended range?

[Skarlock]

Let's say that you made clan lasers, and only clan lasers, do absolutely 0 damage outside of their max range. If this was the case, I'd say clan lasers still are vastly, overwhelmingly superior to IS lasers. Take for example the IS medium laser. For 1 ton you get 5 damage up to 270 meters. Your absolute max range would be something like 540 meters, sure, but your damage output at that range would be so trivial, you'd be lucky to even change the color of a light mechs armor at that range with 6 of them. On the other hand, you get 7 damage up to 400 meters with a clan medium laser. So up to 400 meters, the clan weapon is doing 40% more damage. After that, the IS weapon is only doing somewhere around 2.5 points of damage whereas the clan laser is doing 0.

However, even if you nerf clan lasers, you still have to do something about clan gauss, clan engines, clan superior endo/ferro upgrades, and smaller clan double heat sinks. Clans aren't stronger because they have one and only one thing that makes them superior. Clans are stronger because they have many, many things that when combined give them far superior tonnage and space efficiency for their weapons as well as better speed and agility. It would be fine to do something like this, but it's a far cry from true balance IMO because it's not enough.

[soapyfrog]

Well this is why I limited myself to balancing lasers; everything else also needs tweaking (includng probably some gentle buffing to IS weapons).

That said the point of reducing the optimal range is to make the clan damage advantage much less marked, and something that they do need to pay extra heat and beam duration for.

[Tarogato]

While I do like the idea of playing around with range profiles like the OP suggestions, I think a few other methods of balance should come first.

1. fix some of the heat values that PGI broke.
2. fix some of the damage values that PGI broke.
3. increase duration on Clan ER lasers if the above wasn't enough.
4. adjust ranges on Clan lasers if the above wasn't enough.

"What do you mean values that PGI broke?"

IS ML in tabletop deals 5 damage for 3 heat. PGI decided to make it cost 4 heat. (IS got nerfed)
IS SL in tabletop deals 3 damage for 1 heat. PGI decided to make it cost 2 heat. (IS got nerfed)
cERLL in tabletop deals 10 damage for 12 heat. PGI decided to give it 11 damage. (clan got buffed)
cSPL in tabletop deals 3 damage for 2 heat. PGI decided to give it 6 damage for 3 heat. (is that necessary?)
cMPL in tabletop deals 7 damage for 4 heat. PGI decided to give it 8 damage for 6 heat. (that's actually a nerf... )
cLPL in tabletop deals 10 damage for 10 heat. PGI decided to give it 13 damage. (wtf? really?)

[Kaptain]

Tarogato, on 16 September 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

While I do like the idea of playing around with range profiles like the OP suggestions, I think a few other methods of balance should come first. 1. fix some of the heat values that PGI broke. 2. fix some of the damage values that PGI broke. 3. increase duration on Clan ER lasers if the above wasn't enough. 4. adjust ranges on Clan lasers if the above wasn't enough. "What do you mean values that PGI broke?" IS ML in tabletop deals 5 damage for 3 heat. PGI decided to make it cost 4 heat. (IS got nerfed) IS SL in tabletop deals 3 damage for 1 heat. PGI decided to make it cost 2 heat. (IS got nerfed) cERLL in tabletop deals 10 damage for 12 heat. PGI decided to give it 11 damage. (clan got buffed) cSPL in tabletop deals 3 damage for 2 heat. PGI decided to give it 6 damage for 3 heat. (is that necessary?) cMPL in tabletop deals 7 damage for 4 heat. PGI decided to give it 8 damage for 6 heat. (that's actually a nerf... ) cLPL in tabletop deals 10 damage for 10 heat. PGI decided to give it 13 damage. (wtf? really?)

Whoa... yeah that's a good place to start.