37 replies to this topic

[_Pickle_]

Zelthar the mecha wizard, on 17 September 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

If you did, you'd know he's right. Clan players are far more skilled and organized than IS players because we have to be. A lot of the current Clan 'mechs are unquirked or have negative quirks. We don't have the luxury of falling back on quirks(crutches) to win battles. We don't have a 60 ton Battlemech with a 50% AC/5 cooldown quirk(67% with a cooldown module and fast fire unlocked in the elite 'mech skills) We only have a handful of viable 'mechs to use compared to the IS that can effectively use whatever they want, granted there's still the holy trinity of Stalker-4N, Thunderbolt-5SS and Dragon-1N, but there's a reason why Clan players always take Stormcrows, Hellbringers, Timber wolves and Arctic Cheetahs(I personally dislike the Archtic Cheetah) into CW. It's because they're the only ones we have that are viable for CW matches. As far as IS vs. Clan weapons goes... Clan AC/UAC fire in bursts, each shot doing a set amount of damage that = up to the AC's total damage, unfortunately, that means Clan ACs will only ever do their full damage to a single component of an enemy 'mech if said 'mech was not moving.
Meanwhile, IS AC/UAC do their full damage in a single shot and are usually backed up with one or more quirks to further improve the effectiveness.

Clan Lasers burn longer, generate more heat as a result and have disgusting ghost heat shackled to them. We would love to have a Battlemech that can rival the Stalker-4N... Sadly, firing more than 2 Clan LLs means usually generating about 40% to 50% of that 'mech's max heat, if not a shutdown.

LRMs are not viable on either side but again...IS LRMs will deal their full damage in one volley 9-10 times, while Clan LRMs fire in a fast stream of 1 missile at a time that, like Clan AC/UAC deal a % of the weapon's maximum damage.

Clan SRMs aren't much different than IS from what I can tell, Streaks meanwhile.... Clan's have a simple tech advantage until the timeline is moved forward enough for IS to have their's. Clan streaks are only ever used to deal with the patented IS Light Rush®

Clan ERPPCs are too hot to use on most Clan 'mechs outside of the Warhawk, which has low arm mounts across all variants

IS/Clan Gauss Rifles function the same excluding the few IS 'mechs that have Gauss Rifle/ballistic cooldown quirks.

Saying this game is unbalanced is nothing short of beating a dead horse, anyone with a functioning brain can tell you that this game is unbalanced... But having the casual nobodies that only play solo got to the forums after losing matches over and over and over, complaining "Clan mechs OP PGI plz nerf" are not the people that PGI should be listening to when it comes to MWO's Battlemech and weapon balancing. Look what happened to WoW, Blizzard did exactly that and as a result WoW is on life support with expansions rolling out like cars on an assembly line just to keep people playing. PGI needs to listen to the competitive(as small as it is) for feedback as to how this game should be balanced, they're the ones that know what they're talking about.

ALSO, Before any IS players tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about... The majority of the 'mechs I own are IS.

As an IS Loyalist, I can understand and agree to your point. 90% of the 'Mechs I own are IS, but I do own some Clan 'Mechs like the Mad Cat and Cauldron-Born, a few Pumas, and I have to agree that Clan 'Mechs are hotter, don't have any great quirks, have a lot more ghost heat problems, and also have some negative weapon and hard point quirks. I will admit that the Clan 'Mechs do take a bit more skill to pilot, as not only are they hotter, have less space for extra heatsinks, and can't change out the engine. I've also noticed that Clan 'Mechs have a much lower torso twist than the average IS 'Mech.

[D A T A]

240 vs 240 INNER SPHERE IS BETTER

[sdsnowbum]

Don't think of it as an attempt to balance, think of it as a handicap to curtail the Clan winning streak.

PGI is turning one of the ***** they have built into their system. Let's all see what happens.

[Nightshade24]

Steel Raven, on 17 September 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

... because Clans have been wuppin the IS for awhile statistically. It doesn't sound like it will stay in the IS favor for long but it might be enough to boost the number IS players so you Falcon have at least more people to shoot at.

so when the clans started getting wupped because now instead of an equality(ish) in all but player population we will have a whole shift to the IS and they start wuppen' do the clans get a +10 ton boost and IS get back to 240 tons?

[Nightshade24]

Svarn Lornon, on 18 September 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

LOL, they are? Considering the recent experiences from our clan tour I can't really sign this statement. Neither the organization nor the skillpart.

Not the mechs (to a degree, many of them have faults that need to be overcome with skill, for eg no ability to equip or unequipped FF, ES, etc. or change engine). however he meant the playerbase- at the current moment most of the bigger more active units play CW as a clan and also are some of the more skilled guys.

So they are far more organised then the IS because if you got 12 man team of one of the random top 10 units in MW: O fighting 12 Inner sphere pugs well then guess who is the more skilled and organised team out of the two.

[Iain Black]

dang, still cant pick 12 locusts...

[Reaper3015]

Yes... give the IS more advantages. Because overpowered perks are not enough apparently.

[Jae Hyun Nakamura]

if you ever needed 10 tons more. i had much better and equal games with 240/240 faceing premades like the PHL, TJ, 12DG and HHoD and other really good IS premades. What we get now is a regular stomp going 48/ 10<30.

[Monkey Lover]

I want to see that clan skill with Summoner and novas ha-ha. Getting into a crow is easy mode I don't care what you say. I own a lot of.both and when we do public Q I take clan mechs.

[MahKraah]

Jae Hyun Nakamura, on 18 September 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

if you ever needed 10 tons more. i had much better and equal games with 240/240 faceing premades like the PHL, TJ, 12DG and HHoD and other really good IS premades. What we get now is a regular stomp going 48/ 10<30.

thats exactly the same experience is pilots have: they get slaughtered when facing a good 12 man



i have a coupple hundred cw games in my stats, eaqualy as soloplayer and as part of a (casual)12man team.

without the so called mega quirks, average is 12mans would regulary lose against mixed clan teams and would not have the smallest chance vs a average clan 12 man.

i found the balance to be ok bevore the last batch of clan mechs where introduced.
those new clan mechs are quiet good , especialy the fact that nowdays clan teams use to have 4-6 ecm mechs in EACH wave.
no target marking : no coordinated fire , not visible mechs (mist). is ecm is ALWAYS countered and therefor streaks are viable weapons for claners
clan mechs are generaly alot more durable and /or alot faster.

the biggest factor for the hugh clan success on the map nowdays is that 80% of the most active and successfull is teams from cw-beta 1 are playing clan now, to use the new mechs that where introduced lately and to take advantage of multiple faction rewards.

i think 10 tons difference might be the sweet spot to restore balance

[BerserX]

***SKIP TO BOTTOM (AFTER SMILEY) FOR TONNAGE LIMIT STUFF. lol***

Canonically, IS ALWAYS had more mechs than Clans in a given fight. Clan mechs were always superior, and only SUPER good IS pilots or a few good/decent pilots could take down a Clanner. There's a reason you normally read a section where a no name IS pilot is running from a no name Clan pilot. The converse never happens to my knowledge, short of some significant tactical advantage.

I agree that Clan mechs take more skill than IS to pilot. I have only had the Blackhawk Package mechs for the longest time (going to purchase Ebon Jags as soon as they go on sale), and I haven't added any new Clan mechs BECAUSE there are only a few viable arsenals (but those arsenals are super meta in most cases). I usually fear a Clan mech on the battlefield much more than an IS mech (short of the Wubba-bolt and laser platform previously known as the Stalker), because they usually run some sort of super meta arsenal. I have only recently delved into my Novas and Kitfoxes again, because I have become bored running the same IS mechs constantly, and don't play enough to rake in CBills hand-over-fist.

I think the big issue here is that Clan METAS are OP. Only a few IS metas are ridiculous, but those few are also blown way out of proportion (i.e.: my unit had a special brawl to commemorate the anniversary of our founding, and the Wubba-bolt kicked butt bad in the heavy class - only beaten by a Jager because the pilot was really good with his build. Orions, Dragons, Catapults, Grasshoppers, etc. were not at all competitive. The super metas were only beaten by REALLY good players.). I want to see ALL quirks redone into generalized quirks for weapon types (i.e.: AC general quirks, SRM general quirks, Laser general quirks, etc.), with NO weapon-specific quirks (Grid Iron's OP gauss rifle, or Wubba-bolt's OP MPLs). Weapon modules are for this purpose. I want to have a reason to own a Thunderbolt aside from uber meta PPC and MPL quirks.

The metas need nerfing/rebalancing. I definitely agree with the tonnage limit, but it's not an excuse for revisiting the gross metas that exist or the fact that Clan mechs are WAY too expensive for their limited abilities (outside running straight metas), or that their energy weapons are too hot and their hardpoints are all locked. I personally would run Clans very often if I didn't have to pretty much use straight meta, or be ridiculously good (or have an incredibly skilled unit) to use them effectively.

Back to the tonnage limit though...

I think a good balance would be what I've harped on all along: 10v12, Clan v. IS. It just needs to be for CW, and would allow the Clans to be unnerfed, while letting the IS have a small numbers advantage (small tonnage advantage can follow). In the meantime, a good band aid solution may be to let the Clans run 260 (equivalent to four Hellbringers) and let the IS do 300 (equivalent to four Orions), or somewhere in the ballpark for both. Then, an in-game mechanic can be added if necessary to prevent/delay the winning team's reinforcements if the point discrepancy is above a certain threshold (I personally don't like this idea, but it would help games run closer, assuming PUGvPUG since better units will likely congregate and wait anyways to strike in force). The prevent/delay would be faction-neutral, negating any argument of it targeting certain groups, and it would give lesser groups a respite/breather to mop up remaining targets without getting rolled or feeling pressured by the next onslaught. A good way to implement this, to prevent high-rated units from being inconvenienced when going head-to-head, may be to have MM compare overall team ratings and determine if a certain team needs a prevent/delay enemy drop handicap to be competitive for the match.

Just an idea. It's a band aid sure, but if we're just going to keep seeing band ****, I want a different colored one! (keep getting bland, tan BandAid brand ones - no Power Rangers or Snoopy band ****. lol)

Seriously though, let's stop seeing so much weapon nerfs/quirks or tonnage changes after this next round of balances (assuming it's not too broken again), and start seeing some team nerfs/quirks to make games end closer (at least try something similar on the PTS).



With that, I'm done ranting. Time to hit the sack because I'm too tired to make sure my post has any kind of cohesion and doesn't contradict itself.

*me staring at screen, keeping eyes open* --->
*how I really feel* ---> ZzzzZzzzZzzz

Edited by BerserX, 18 September 2015 - 06:19 PM.

[Dawnstealer]

Catalina Steiner, on 18 September 2015 - 04:20 AM, said:

...watch the map, I suppose.

[goatreich]

Nice. But when the un-quirkening happens we'll need even more than those 10 tons.

[Gumon Choji]

I just saw some foolishness from my clan brothers.

Quirks are not a crutch but a good way to add to the game play. I like the positive ones. Negative ones I feel your frustration. it is like going to the gas station and having someone pee on my windshield. It improves nothing and leaves a "unique" smell in the forums for months. But seriously our clan mechs are over powered. Not all but the ones we play are.

Looking at you Dire wolf, Arctic Cheetah,Storm Crow and Mad Cat.

We all know it and if everything has ECM then come on I admit we are powerful. Also we have many Great players.
Give the 10 tons. but make our non meta Mechs worth taking. Seriously. I want more varied options. None of this Nurfing garbage. I really do not like people releasing themselves on my good mechs.

[Jae Hyun Nakamura]

Monkey Lover, on 18 September 2015 - 03:32 PM, said:

I want to see that clan skill with Summoner and novas ha-ha. Getting into a crow is easy mode I don't care what you say. I own a lot of.both and when we do public Q I take clan mechs.

I want to see the IS skill with Catapults and Trebuchets... *flipboing*

[The Unstoppable Puggernaut]

Why don't PGI try 8 clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs (no nerfs no quirks) for each drop. People can then pick to fight in a mob vs power/strength.

[Fobhopper]

Zelthar the mecha wizard, on 17 September 2015 - 08:36 PM, said:

If you did, you'd know he's right. Clan players are far more skilled and organized than IS players because we have to be. A lot of the current Clan 'mechs are unquirked or have negative quirks. We don't have the luxury of falling back on quirks(crutches) to win battles. We don't have a 60 ton Battlemech with a 50% AC/5 cooldown quirk(67% with a cooldown module and fast fire unlocked in the elite 'mech skills) We only have a handful of viable 'mechs to use compared to the IS that can effectively use whatever they want, granted there's still the holy trinity of Stalker-4N, Thunderbolt-5SS and Dragon-1N, but there's a reason why Clan players always take Stormcrows, Hellbringers, Timber wolves and Arctic Cheetahs(I personally dislike the Archtic Cheetah) into CW. It's because they're the only ones we have that are viable for CW matches. As far as IS vs. Clan weapons goes... Clan AC/UAC fire in bursts, each shot doing a set amount of damage that = up to the AC's total damage, unfortunately, that means Clan ACs will only ever do their full damage to a single component of an enemy 'mech if said 'mech was not moving.
Meanwhile, IS AC/UAC do their full damage in a single shot and are usually backed up with one or more quirks to further improve the effectiveness.

Clan Lasers burn longer, generate more heat as a result and have disgusting ghost heat shackled to them. We would love to have a Battlemech that can rival the Stalker-4N... Sadly, firing more than 2 Clan LLs means usually generating about 40% to 50% of that 'mech's max heat, if not a shutdown.

LRMs are not viable on either side but again...IS LRMs will deal their full damage in one volley 9-10 times, while Clan LRMs fire in a fast stream of 1 missile at a time that, like Clan AC/UAC deal a % of the weapon's maximum damage.

Clan SRMs aren't much different than IS from what I can tell, Streaks meanwhile.... Clan's have a simple tech advantage until the timeline is moved forward enough for IS to have their's. Clan streaks are only ever used to deal with the patented IS Light Rush®

Clan ERPPCs are too hot to use on most Clan 'mechs outside of the Warhawk, which has low arm mounts across all variants

IS/Clan Gauss Rifles function the same excluding the few IS 'mechs that have Gauss Rifle/ballistic cooldown quirks.

Saying this game is unbalanced is nothing short of beating a dead horse, anyone with a functioning brain can tell you that this game is unbalanced... But having the casual nobodies that only play solo got to the forums after losing matches over and over and over, complaining "Clan mechs OP PGI plz nerf" are not the people that PGI should be listening to when it comes to MWO's Battlemech and weapon balancing. Look what happened to WoW, Blizzard did exactly that and as a result WoW is on life support with expansions rolling out like cars on an assembly line just to keep people playing. PGI needs to listen to the competitive(as small as it is) for feedback as to how this game should be balanced, they're the ones that know what they're talking about.

ALSO, Before any IS players tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about... The majority of the 'mechs I own are IS.

I will admit IS AC weapons are better than Clan, but Clan have more useful lasers (IS lasers: medium lasers goes to 270 and cost 1 ton, if you want more range you have to either take an Large laser which has around 540 range, and is 5 tons, there is no middle ground to help bridge the range gap between medium and large weapons) your lasers have much better range (honestly all your weapons excempt LRMs have better range) AND clan LRM's arm WITHIN 180 meters. Not to mention your mechs also have an superior double heatsinks (2 slots instead of IS taking 3 slots), all your parts are case protected AND your XL engines being blown up on your side doesnt immediately kill the mech. Not to mention almost all your omnipods can be switched out, unlike IS mechs which have to buy a whole 'nother mech to get different hard points. So please, seriously shut the **** up. Clan mechs have so many bonuses above IS mechs its not even ******* funny. And this is someone who has almost every single mech pack released, and pilots both IS and Clan mechs regularly. And lets not forget that you can get a targeting system that increases not only weapon projectile speed, but also crit chance and increased weapon effective range.

Clan mechs honestly dominate the **** out of IS mechs in CW, and it usually boils down to the fact that Clan weapons seriously out range IS weapons to the point that on certain maps (like the alpine one thats just one long ******* valley) the only reason clanners lose is because they ****** up. I have seen matches where IS won matches they should have lost not because they had better weapons (they really dont), not because they have better tactics (most of the time its a flustercluck), its because clanners did something really stupid and IS took advantage of it.

The reason why most clan mechs dont have quirks is because most of the clan mechs are to incredibly ******* good as it stands already. If you played on the PTS and saw what clan mechs looks like with quirks like IS, there literally was no reason to play IS mechs because clan mechs were just too incredibly good. Why take a King crab that has the CT of a barn and could be outrun by a 1 legged Atlas in an asskicking contest when you could run a Direwhale with an XL engine, missiles and lasers/ppc's out the wazoo and have almost no heat issues and you could still move faster than both? I am not even joking about this, Quirkageddon reaction was not as overblown as it sounded.