16 replies to this topic

[Yosharian]

True MWO Balance
The premise is simple: allow the Clans to retain their awesome firepower while also bringing the Inner Sphere up to a competitive level. Before the meat, some background.

Background
What's it like fighting the Wolf? Imagine lightning on legs, or an earthquake with arms, or catastrophe with genius, or just pure hell on wheels.

Clan mechs have always been overpowered in Battletech, the game upon which MWO is based. Veteran Battletech players will tell you as much. BattleValue, the points system that attempts to place a number on how powerful each mech is, helps alleviate this problem somewhat, but isn't perfect.

MWO's main problem is that it doesn't really balance via tonnage or some kind of points system currently. Instead, it uses a balancing system which assigns arbitrary 'classes' to mechs and divides them up into groups accordingly. So two mechs which are barely different at all in terms of firepower, armor, etc., can end up completely different balance groups.

Example: the heavy Quickdraw versus the medium Shadowhawk. The QKD has a 5 ton advantage over the SHK, which gives it an armor and firepower advantage. However, there are drawbacks to being in a larger weight class; for example, the QKD's jumpjets are twice as heavy as the SHK's! However the main issue is that, being a heavy, the QKD is essentially expected to perform against other Inner Sphere heavies that completely outclass it due to superior tonnage. This is without considering meta advantages such as high hardpoints, which will be dealt with separately.

So in order to begin balancing the game, we must address the way players play the game, which is to take the heaviest mechs in each weight class, currently. They are forced to, if they wish to remain competitive. Thus, the lowly QKD remains more or less consigned to the dustbin. (Quirks, yes. Will address this later)

Once all mechs are made at least a little bit more viable by rethinking the current matchmaking/group system, weapon systems, modules, equipment, etc must all be balanced globally. We do this by looking at what dominates the current meta, or taking weapons and equipment that are known to be successful, and balancing other, under-used items against them.

Lastly, we take a look at each mech chassis in greater detail and decide what it brings to the battlefield: role warfare.
There are other details, but you get the idea. Therefore, onwards to the balancing!

Part 1: Matchmaking
Do not judge yourself by the friends you have, but by the enemies you make.

Group system changes:
Groups will be balanced around the following system:

12 man groups have the following tonnage limits, based on these calculations:
- 3 assaults weighing 90 tons each;
- 3 heavies weighing 65 tons each;
- 3 mediums weighing 50 tons each;
- 3 lights weighing 25 tons each;

For a total of 690 tons per 12 man group. These calculations favour Mediums, having a greater weight allocation in terms of min-max weight compared to Heavies. They also put a strain on Light tonnage: taking 3 Arctic Cheetahs is fine, but your teammates will have to take lighter mechs to compensate.

These numbers are easy to change based upon your own interpretations, but essentially the idea is to balance big groups around tonnage rather than arbitrary weight 'classes' (a stupid idea in the first place, but in the weight class system cannot simply be removed, unfortunately).

Smaller groups will have similar tonnage limits based on the above calculations. If players drop in groups that are significantly under the limit that's their choice, but that is just the drawback of this system. The matchmaker can of course weight these specific under-tonned groups lower when matching groups, in order to help this somewhat.

Another idea that I have heard floated around is to change the 3/3/3/3 dynamic but I'm unsure how effective this will be. Plus it really sucks if you're an Assault pilot and you get shafted with low Assault limits when you group with your buddies, for example. So I decided not to investigate this idea.

Part 2: Weaponry and equipment
In Clan politics, success has more to do with speed, persistence, and aggressiveness than with less important qualities such as intelligence, morality, and soul.

Clan Lasers vs Inner Sphere Lasers
- Clan tech should be long duration, long range, high damage, high heat.
- IS tech should be low duration, low range, medium damage, low heat.

This gives MWO Lasers a distinctive flavour. Clan tech beats IS tech in long-to-medium range trading. This is as expected; the Clans should dominate this kind of combat. When it comes to protracted engagements, Clans should suffer somewhat from their hot weapons, while Inner Sphere remain cool. Additionally, when playing poke-me-gently around corners and hill-humping, the Inner Sphere low duration helps them deal with the Clans' absurd range advantage. However, overall the Clans will always dominate generally speaking when it comes to Lasers.

The Clan Extended Range Large Laser
Currently this weapon is in a bad spot because it is far weaker than its cousin, the C LPL. It just needs a little tweak to give it a bit more potential in its natural role.

- Duration reduced to 1.4 seconds, down from 1.5
- Range increased to 780, up from 740

The Clan Large Pulse Laser
Compared to other weapons, the range on this weapon is too large. Consider the following figures:

IS SPL: 110 range; IS MPL: 220 range (double SPL); IS LPL: 365 range (triple SPL + 35)
C SPL: 165 range; C MPL: 330 range (double SPL); C LPL: 600 range (triple SPL + 105)

The 105 figure stands out. Why this arbitrary 105 stacked on top of a reasonably good formula? This is essentially triple the bonus that the IS LPL gets (35). If we compare the IS/C SPL ranges, we see that the clans get a 1.5x range bonus. Therefore the linear bonus applied to the IS LPL (35) should be multiplied by 1.5 when determining the C LPL's range.

- New C LPL range = (165 x 3) + (35 x 1.5) = 495 + 53 = 548.

Particle Projection Cannons
PPCs at the moment are in a better spot than they used to be, but still need work. For starters, heat values across the board must be reduced. These weapons are far too hot and currently only work on certain mechs which have heavy energy/PPC generation quirks and velocity quirks. These crutches must be removed and the weapon made viable across all mechs. Currently these weapons are absurdly bad compared to Large Pulse Lasers in almost all situations, especially on Clan mechs.

- Heat reductions: IS PPC 9 (down from 10), IS ERPPC 13.75 (down from 15), C ERPPC 13.75 (down from 15)
- Velocity buffed to 30% of current values: IS PPC 1430, IS ERPPC 1560, C ERPPC 1560

Clan Ballistics vs Inner Sphere Ballistics
Clan Ballistic weaponry is considered sub-par because of its chain-fire aspect. PGI must decide whether it wants to retain this flavour or dump it.

If it dumps it, Clan will have a viable alternative to Lasers when looking for pin-point damage.

If it retains it, the Clans must be given some kind of incentive to use these weapons. I suggest a simple heat drop across the board, say 5-10%. This will give the Clans a bit of breathing room when they are trying to deal with their absurdly hot energy weapons.

Furthermore, Clan Ballistic tech should begin cooldown cycles immediately after firing the first projectile, instead of after the final projectile as it currently works. This is an unneeded and unfair penalty for the Clans.

Clan Gauss
Clan Gauss is in a powerful position right now because it is a perfect complement to the Clans' hot laser weaponry. This means it needs to be considered separately. Clan Gauss needs to have some kind of balancing factor imposed on it. I suggest a small penalty on the charge up mechanic, perhaps 0.25-0.5sec or so. I also suggest a small penalty on ammunition counts, with Clan Gauss ammo being 9 shots per ton, down from the previous 10. These are small changes that will subtly reduce the effectiveness of the C Gauss without making it crap. Clan pilots will have to aim for slightly longer and be slightly more careful with their ammunition. I know for a fact that this will help balance competitive Clan builds because they are frequently very tight on ammo. Summary:

- penalty on charge mechanic: 0.25sec-0.5sec
- ammo/ton reduced to 9, down from 10

The Infamous AC2
The AC2 is one of the worst weapons in the game currently. It is too heavy, too hot, and deals too little damage. Statistics:

IS AC2 - 2 damage - 1 heat - 0.72 cooldown - 720 range - 1 slot - 6 tons - 2000 speed - 75 ammo/ton

If we compare it to the very successful AC5:

IS AC5 - 5 damage - 1 heat - 1.66 cooldown - 620 range - 4 slots - 8 tons - 1150 speed - 30 ammo/ton

Let's examine the AC2's advantages:
- cooldown: irrelevant because the AC2 is too hot to fire for long periods
- range: mostly irrelevant because most ranged combat happens around the 600m mark
- speed: its best attribute by far
- ammo/ton: second best attribute

Now let's examine the AC2's disadvantages:
- damage: piss-poor damage compared to the AC5
- heat: same heat as the next weapon up in its class!
- tonnage: only 2 tons less than the next weapon up in its class!

Proposed changes next to old values, with AC5 for comparison:
IS AC2 - 2 damage - 1 heat - 0.72 cooldown - 720 range - 1 slot - 6 tons - 2000 speed - 75 ammo/ton
IS AC2 - 2 damage - 0.6 heat - 0.72 cooldown - 720 range - 1 slot - 5 tons - 2000 speed - 65 ammo/ton
IS AC5 - 5 damage - 1 heat - 1.66 cooldown - 620 range - 4 slots - 8 tons - 1150 speed - 30 ammo/ton

By nerfing the ammo/ton slightly and buffing the tonnage and heat, we make this weapon what it should be - a light autocannon that packs a small punch at long ranges and can actually be fired for more than 5 seconds. Pilots must be a little more careful with ammunition in order to balance this. Similar changes can be made to the Clan range of AC2s also.

The AC10 and LB 10-X AC
LB 10-X AC:

- Cooldown reduction to 2 seconds, down from 2.5 seconds
- Max Range reduction to 620m, down from 1620
- Ammo/ton increase to 20/ton, up from 15/ton
- Heat reduction to 1.75, down from 2

The LB 10-X AC loses its absurd range in favour of much-needed buffs to make it a close combat beast, being cooler, faster to fire and having a more durable ammo count.

AC10:

- Ammo/ton increase to 21/ton, up from 20/ton
- Heat decrease to 2.75, down from 3

This gives the AC10 its niche - a smaller version of the highly-successful AC20 with a more durable ammo count and less heat.


LRM, Artemis and TAG
LRMs need to be completely revamped. They are an awful weapon system currently because they are either devastating against vulnerable mechs or completely useless in direct fire engagements, especially when ECM is in play. For a look at how ECM could be changed, see my other thread titled 'True Information Warfare'.

- LRMs at short range (under 300m): same speed as SRMs, increased to 300, up from 160. Hitbox targeting nerfed slightly (15% less CT hits)

- LRMs at medium range (300-500m): speed increased to 210, up from 160

- LRMs at long range (500m+): speed reduced slightly to 150, down from 160. Hitbox targeting improved slightly (15% more CT hits)

This gives LRMs some much-needed buffs in close-to-medium range combat, where they are currently almost useless. In order to balance this, LRMs launched at close ranges will hit non-CT hitbox locations more often.

- LRM ammo count improved to 200/ton, up from 180/ton

Currently LRM users have to take ridiculous amounts of ammunition in order to avoid running out.

- LRM20: heat reduced to 5, down from 6

The LRM20 currently has no reason to exist: the LRM15 outclasses it in every respect. This gives the LRM20 some much-needed love, allowing it to exist in a niche - having the same heat as the LRM15 but more firepower.

- LRM short-range penalty removed across the board

- When fired without locks, LRMs behave like SRMs

There is absolutely no reason for LRMs to have this penalty. It's completely unnecessary. LRMs are not bloody artillery. LRMs can be dumb-fired without locks with the same projectile behaviour as SRMs, essentially making them low-damage SRMs at this range.

- Artemis causes LRMs and SRMs to travel at 1.5x speed

Giving Artemis a reason to exist with regards to LRM users, and buffing SRMs significantly. Artemis is a very costly upgrade currently and it's almost never worth it.

- TAG laser is completely invisible to the enemy

Currently TAG is in a very poor spot. It's never taken by Lights, and small wonder - the bloody laser instantly gives away your sodding position! TAG should be a deadly and feared piece of equipment when combined with LRM support. Additionally, when used by certain Mechs (for example the Raven), using TAG could add a bonus to overall target retention, or other interesting quirk effects.

AMS
AMS needs huge buffs as currently it is almost useless unless taken en masse.

- speed increased to 500, up from 100
- range increased to 180, up from 120
- tonnage reduced to 0.25, down from 0.5
- rate of fire increased such that AMS can handle twice the current incoming fire
- targeting priority system: NARC/STREAK > SRM > LRM
- extra targeting modes: Solo (only protects self), All (all hostile missiles), Non-tracking (only SRMs)

Machine Gun
- damage increased to 0.09, up from 0.08
- range increased to 300, up from 120
- speed increased to 1300, up from 100
- IS MG tonnage reduced to 0.25, down from 0.5, in line with C MG

Without looking at crit-seeking behaviour as I think that is incredibly difficult to balance without access to hard data, the Machine Gun needs to have a better general role currently as it is almost useless. A small damage increase together with huge speed and range buffs will allow the MG to actually have a purpose on the battlefield besides giving a lucky ammo crit once every two months. Tonnage savings allow IS MGs to compete with other useful equipment, instead of being dumped in favour of a few extra heatsinks.

Flamer
- heat reduced to 0.1, down from 1
- incremental heat mechanic removed
- tonnage reduced to 0.5, down from 1, in line with C Flamer

These changes allow the Flamer to be actually useful, instead of setting your own mech on fire. Remember that a Flamer has a max range of 90.

STREAK SRM
Clan Streaks are in a good place right now, despite the fact that when boated on a certain mech they can seem extremely strong.

- IS STREAK SRM 2: heat reduced to 1, down from 2

Throw Inner Sphere STREAK users a bone, I guess. I don't really care about this weapon system if I'm being honest, as I don't the concept of randomly-located close combat damage, and I strongly dislike the idea of a 'remove Light mechs from game' button as it introduces a 'feast or famine' situation for Light pilots.

Ghost Heat
Ghost heat aka 'firing more than X amount of this weapon will result in extra heat' is a reasonable attempt at balancing the insanely powerful alpha strikes that MWO can produce. Contrary to most players, I think it's actually in a pretty good spot right now. The only thing I think should be changed is that ghost heat should become an integral part of the balancing system for individual mechs. Will touch more on this further down.

Jumpjets
Jumpjets need a complete overhaul based on the following rules:

a) Jumpjets are no longer grouped by weight class, but instead derive statistics directly off the mech's tonnage (gradually improving statistics as tonnage increases)

b] Jumpjets should allow mechs to make decent jumps across the board (i.e. should be able to scale similar obstacles/buildings)

c) Mechs that must not jump too high for balance purposes (e.g. Dire Wolf) will receive negative quirks to enable this, and certain mechs may receive jumpjet quirks (including extra rotation speed for example, not just straight up 'jump higher' bonuses) as bonuses to allow them to compete competitively (e.g. Nova, Summoner), especially mechs with locked Jumpjets (e.g. Executioner)

d) Broadly speaking, Mediums, Lights and Heavies currently jump adequate distances/heights; Assaults need roughly 25%-30% more thrust based on existing behaviour

e) Jumpjets should have behaviours depending on tonnage: Light jumpjets should be fairly high thrust (15% better thrust) but slightly shorter (10%) burn times; Medium jumpjets should be more or less how they are now; Heavy jumpjets should have slightly longer (10%) burn times; Assault jumpjets should have significantly longer burn times (30%) (these behaviours gradually become stronger as tonnage increases rather than being arbitrary ranks, I only give distinct numbers with with classes to give you a better idea of the behaviours)

f) Leg damage for Jumpjet-capable/equipped mechs needs to be lowered (10%) as these mechs are designed to withstand more fall damage, and leg damage from falling needs to be lowered across the board (30%)

The maths behind rule a) requires access to specific data (namely thrust values) that I do not have, but essentially can be summed up like this:

- Take all values for jumpjets for all mechs after tweaking for all other rules stated above and normalize them across the board such that there are not jarring differences between mechs. A Shadowhawk should not have jumpjets that are twice as light as a Quickdraw's, for example. Instead these values should change gradually in reasonable increments (say 0.25 tons) as Mech tonnage increases.

No need to elaborate further as this is extremely simple when you have access to all the relevant data - 10 mins work at most. Of course it's significant work to implement within the game, but there you go!

Modules
- Radar Deprivation: 'you have been targeted' alert removed, moved to Beagle Active Probe/Clan Active Probe instead.

- Capture Accelerator: increased cap speed by 50%, up from 15%

- 360% Target Retention: increased range to 350m, up from 200m

- Shock Absorbance: increased damage reduction to 70%/60%/50%/40%, up from 35%/30%/25%/20%

- Sensor Range: changed name to 'Advanced Sensors'; increased sensor range bonus to 25%; added increased targeting speed bonus (time to get red dorito) of 25%

- Speed Retention: increased to 50%, up from 30%

- Hill Climb: reduced slowdown bonus increased to 75%, up from 10%

- Improved Gyros: almost completely (95%) removes screen shake caused by enemy fire, used to be 'reduced screen shake'; reduced reticle shake (25% less sway) caused by jumpjet thrust

Equipment
Single Heat Sink: increased heat dissipation to 0.11, up from 0.10; increased heat capacity bonus to 1.1, up from 1.0 (could be better bonuses but not enough data available to make that judgement yet, but the idea is to make SHS slightly more viable for niche/crazy/fun builds)

Beagle Active Probe: tonnage reduced to 1.25, down from 1.5

Command Console: tonnage reduced to 1, down from 3

Guardian ECM/Clan ECM: range reduced to 165, down from 180

IS Ferro Fibrous: occupies 12 critical slots, down from 14

Engines
Clan XL is a sore point for many Inner Sphere players and it's one of the Clans' most powerful assets. However, I don't want to spend too much time on this as I feel it's a problem that can be solved fairly easily simply by introducing the Light Fusion Engine which, technically speaking, was introduced in 3062.

Introducing this engine which has a 75% weight saving compared to standard (normal IS XL is 50%) would basically settle this problem, in my opinion.


Part 3 - Mech Chassis Quirks
True warriors do not follow paths, they make them. It is not just their desire, it is their nature.

Quirks are a great way of raising poor mechs up to the level of their meta counterparts, and play a vital part in giving each mech a place on the battlefield. I think the following rule should be applied: avoid giving mechs quirks which only influence specific weapons. Example: the Dragon 1N should have generic ballistic quirks instead of specific AC5 quirks. Secondly some quirks need to be reigned in as they are far too strong.

I'm going to mostly address chassis' rather than variants as I feel it would take too long to individually detail each variant that is underperforming, and PGI have shown that they're working on that area anyway. These are the mechs I think need to be changed:

The Inner Sphere
Spider - needs some durability quirk love to make it a harder to leg, and some heat gen quirks

Jenner - needs durability quirks for its barn-sized CT

Raven - HUGINN needs a slight nerf, maybe knock 10% off that SRM speed

Kintaro - needs some durability/agility quirks

Wolverine 6K - needs a slight nerf on its LL quirks (5% or so)

Dragon 1N - AC5 quirk needs retuning, try 30% (total, down from 50%) as a starting value and work from there

Catapult - needs existing quirks made stronger and its massive ears need to be looked at

Thunderbolt 5SS - MPL range needs to be reduced to 30% (total, down from 50%), heat gen reduced to 13% (down from 15%)

Cataphract - needs some agility quirks to help it work around its gorilla arms

Orion - needs to be directly buffed to compete with the Timber Wolf; needs a ton of buffs in almost every area but especially agility since it has none of those

Awesome - needs stronger durability and mobility quirks, turn this mech into the monster brawler it deserves to be; allow the Awesome to fire 3 PPCs/ERPPCs without ghost heat penalty

Victor - needs heat gen quirks

Highlander - needs stronger agility/mobility quirks and more buffs in the weapons department, again this mech should be a devastating brawler but it's just sad

Atlas - needs a ton of durability and agility/mobility quirks to turn this thing into the tanking monster brawler it should be; the Atlas should be the close range fist that counters the Dire Wolf's strength at medium/long range

The Clans
Mist Lynx - needs more NARC bonuses since that is what it is best at, similar to the Raven 3L; hardwired Clan Active Probe needs to be made removable

Cheetah - needs all structure bonuses removed and some laser duration penalties; doesn't need heat gen penalties IMO

Kit Fox - needs to have better energy heat gen quirks so it can spam lasers while hiding next to the big boys

Adder - mobility/agility so it can peek over hills and blast people with PPCs/lasers more effectively

Ice Ferret - needs to have similar energy heat gen quirks to the Firestarter and be very mobile/agile

Nova - desperately needs stronger heat gen quirks

Stormcrow - needs to have slight heat gen penalties and to keep its current laser duration penalties to impact its most powerful builds, don't touch the agility as for me that is what gives the SCR its 'flavour'

Mad Dog - needs god-like missile quirks and better mobility/agility so it can reposition a bit more effectively

Summoner - needs stronger all-round quirks, this mech just needs a lot of love because of its crap hardpoints, jumpjet quirks as previously mentioned are a possibility

Timber Wolf - same as SCR, needs slight heat gen penalties and to keep its moderate laser duration penalties, don't touch the agility

Gargoyle - needs some moderate laser quirks to make it a bit better at vomit/ERSL spam

Warhawk - more agility/speed to differentiate it even more from the DWF

DWF - just needs slight heat gen/laser duration penalties

Executioner - same as Gargoyle

And that's it.

Edited by Yosharian, 19 September 2015 - 03:32 AM.

[waterfowl]

jesus.

[PALEHORSE33]

You didn't factor in any of the quirks into the weapon systems when comparing the between IS and clan.. Current IS meta has less heat, shorter burn, and more range than any clan mech with a mark VII computer...

Edited by PALEHORSE33, 19 September 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[Yosharian]

PALEHORSE33, on 19 September 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

more range

wat

I have addressed the quirks of many overquirked mechs in Part 3, and compared Clan vs IS lasers by looking at all statistics including damage. If there is a specific mech that you think I haven't addressed, please point it out.

It's true that Inner Sphere lasers have the burn time advantage and produce less heat, but they also do far less damage and have far less range.

Clan lasers do more damage over their burn times so it's unfair to compare the two without considering damage.

Lastly the majority of Clan mechs can carry an incredible number of heatsinks compared to Inner Sphere mechs so heat is not as big a balance issue as you would make it seem.

waterfowl, on 19 September 2015 - 03:13 AM, said:

jesus.

Edited by Yosharian, 19 September 2015 - 03:32 AM.

[Kiiyor]

Yosharian, on 19 September 2015 - 03:01 AM, said:

True MWO Balance
...snip...

Wow, I need some time to process all this. My only initial gripe was that you hadn't addressed physical characteristics in balance, but you had, and I just hadn't read it yet, heh.

I like the idea of making TAG invisible to the enemy.

Hmmm, more thoughts later I guess.

Edit to save scroll wheels everywhere

Edited by Kiiyor, 19 September 2015 - 04:31 AM.

[Alek Ituin]

I like this.

Two gripes though:
1) IS and Clan Endo/Ferro should be equal. IS special structure/armor should only take 7 slots per, lore be damned!

2) All AC/2's should be 3-4 tons, with a 0.50s CD, at absolute worst. They should be akin to a 40mm Bofors, rapid firing with high velocity, generally decent damage per shot, but more bark than bite against armored units. Reduce their impulse to near zero though, so they aren't as trolly...

Edited by Alek Ituin, 19 September 2015 - 04:45 AM.

[Naduk]

clan damage needs to come down as well as their range
their medium laser should not be out shooting a IS Large laser (clan ML range is currently 405m)
IS ML range is 270 , make clan ML range 300 and continue this theme across the board
there is absolutely no reason clan range needs to be so extreme
do not forget that your base range increases your extended max range (where your doing less but still hitting)
meaning a clan ML can do damage at 800m vs a IS 530m this is just wrong , flat out stupid

single heats sinks should be 1.4 heat dissipation and 0.7 heat capacity (or something to fit this theme)
give them a reason to exist , rapid heat removal but much lower red line
this will make the choice between singles and doubles mean something
and also open the doors to more than just high alpha builds

machine guns and flamers most certainly need buffs but dont futz with their tonnage
both of these weapons should at the very minimum be on par with a medium laser as they are all 1 ton min

adding the LFE would not solve the clan XL issue
as the issue is entirely reliant on the clans getting a free life and still having 50% or less engine weight
from a logical stand point it makes little sense that nothing could have over 30% of its engine blown off and still remain in operation , imagine ripping 30% of your car's engine out and trying to drive it at all

no the solution here is to make a clan mech that loses a side torso of an XL behave the same as if it was legged (in terms of penalty application)
reduction to speed, reduction to all other maneuverability and heat capacity
an IS pilot simply dies with the loss of a side torso, the penalty's need to be harsh

clan units needs to have their free CASE removed and pay half a ton like anyone else

for both clan and IS endo and ferro need to be equalized
currently Ferro is very undesirable unless you can fit both, but if you only get one, ferro gets chucked for endo every time
unless your a clanner then you get no choice and feel gimped or betrayed by it
ferro should provide a flat damage reduction before armour is taken , it would not need to be high as it already give extra weight , but it needs to do something more than its current state, its even worse for light mechs because its a % based trade on your already very low armour rates, so the poor lil guys really get shafted with ferro , if it actually provided a survival boost people would desire it and need to really spend some time choosing

radar derp needs to be changed into a -3.5 seconds of tracking time (exact opposite of target decay mod)
the instant removal of lock is just a powerful as ECM but its worse because it can be combined with it and weighs nothing at all
with the average LRM launcher taking 8tons of space that is a gross amount of weaponry to nullify for free
imagine the cries if you could get a shield module that blocked gauss rounds that weighs nothing as its a module

[Yosharian]

Naduk, on 19 September 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

clan damage needs to come down as well as their range
their medium laser should not be out shooting a IS Large laser (clan ML range is currently 405m)
IS ML range is 270 , make clan ML range 300 and continue this theme across the board
there is absolutely no reason clan range needs to be so extreme
do not forget that your base range increases your extended max range (where your doing less but still hitting)
meaning a clan ML can do damage at 800m vs a IS 530m this is just wrong , flat out stupid

single heats sinks should be 1.4 heat dissipation and 0.7 heat capacity (or something to fit this theme)
give them a reason to exist , rapid heat removal but much lower red line
this will make the choice between singles and doubles mean something
and also open the doors to more than just high alpha builds

machine guns and flamers most certainly need buffs but dont futz with their tonnage
both of these weapons should at the very minimum be on par with a medium laser as they are all 1 ton min

adding the LFE would not solve the clan XL issue
as the issue is entirely reliant on the clans getting a free life and still having 50% or less engine weight
from a logical stand point it makes little sense that nothing could have over 30% of its engine blown off and still remain in operation , imagine ripping 30% of your car's engine out and trying to drive it at all

no the solution here is to make a clan mech that loses a side torso of an XL behave the same as if it was legged (in terms of penalty application)
reduction to speed, reduction to all other maneuverability and heat capacity
an IS pilot simply dies with the loss of a side torso, the penalty's need to be harsh

clan units needs to have their free CASE removed and pay half a ton like anyone else

for both clan and IS endo and ferro need to be equalized
currently Ferro is very undesirable unless you can fit both, but if you only get one, ferro gets chucked for endo every time
unless your a clanner then you get no choice and feel gimped or betrayed by it
ferro should provide a flat damage reduction before armour is taken , it would not need to be high as it already give extra weight , but it needs to do something more than its current state, its even worse for light mechs because its a % based trade on your already very low armour rates, so the poor lil guys really get shafted with ferro , if it actually provided a survival boost people would desire it and need to really spend some time choosing

radar derp needs to be changed into a -3.5 seconds of tracking time (exact opposite of target decay mod)
the instant removal of lock is just a powerful as ECM but its worse because it can be combined with it and weighs nothing at all
with the average LRM launcher taking 8tons of space that is a gross amount of weaponry to nullify for free
imagine the cries if you could get a shield module that blocked gauss rounds that weighs nothing as its a module

What you're asking for is for the Clans to lose everything that makes them different.

It's not going to happen. You have to be realistic.

[Paigan]

I posted the following several times:

Simply gives IS more tactical options. To play creative, nasty, etc. as opposed to clan superior technology but rigid tactics.

For example:
- Strip Clan mechs of most/all module slots (maybe shift advanced zoom to general cockpit functions or leave some limited module slots in)
- Give IS more modules ("tinkering" on mechs), more consumable (probably free / reloading one) like mines, smoke, ammo packs, etc.
- Give IS considerably more drop tonnage (e.g. clan 240, IS 300 or so)
- Use some LIMITED quirks. Positive, but also negative ones.

That way, tha game can be balanced, but in a lore-friendly, asymmetrical way. Just like Starcraft is.

This is PAINFULLY simple to recognize.

Edited by Paigan, 19 September 2015 - 06:49 AM.

[Mcgral18]

SRMs aren't good enough, period. isSRMs need more damage (2.5), and a vanilla velocity buff to 500M/s wouldn't be too much.
The cSRM6 has a nearly 12M CoF, brought to 8M with Artemis, with the isSRM6 not far behind. Give cSRMs buffs, but less buffs than the IS. Probably damage; keep them at 2, but reduced spread (less than IS) and a velocity buff.


The MG needs more than that. Range is useless because of the 3M CoF, and the "Speed" is completely useless and not arguably useful; the MG is a laser. The projectile is completely separate and just fluff. Increasing the 'speed' does nothing to improve performance.
1 DPS, 0 CoF on the isMG, 0.5 'spread' (1M CoF) on the cMG. PGI won't change weight, adjust around that with stats.

Flamer would still be rather useless at that point. Give it the same Dam/ton as the MG.


LFE won't balance the factions; they'll just kill the STD engine. Normalize the XL engines between the factions. Extend losing ST penalties to include Speed and Agility (Torso twist speed, accel, deccel, ETC...)
isXL doesn't die upon ST loss, but gets 60% effectiveness to speed, CT heatsinks, and agility. cXL gets a slight nerf to 75% with the same penalties.

To prevent the STD from being obsolete, give it significant structure buffs. Present brainstorm, a blanket buff (same to a LOLcust or Atlas) to the tune of +30CT and +15-20ST.
Why ST buff? Why not.


Artemis Speed Buff? Eh, alright. It halves lock times, reduces spread by 34% and improves tracking currently.


isSSRMs? That's a pathetic buff. 2.5 damage, or exclusive CT seeking again (either 2.0 or 2.5, this is a significant buff).



Myth Lynx NARC buff?


No...just no.

20% less ERML heat? That sounds nicer; unnerfed heat.


Nova heat? I guess, but armour is far more important for the love child of the Dragon and the Awesome. Super wide with a big nose.


Also on topic for the Myth Lynx: Give all mechs with a sub 250 engine heat gen quirks of +0.6x, x being the number of PoorDubs they're required to bring. Normalize the mechs to all have 10 TrueDubs with an easy bandaid fix.



The entire LBx family is bad; if PGI wants them to stay crit weapons, just increase the 'critDamageMultiplier' from 2 to 5. Suddenly, even the LB2x has a fair chance of destroying a non-Crit Padded item, while the LB10x would be very good, to the LB20x godly.
That, or increase damage 20-40%. Cooldown doesn't help it enough, as seen with the +57%RoF quirks. That's sub 2s cooldown.


Having an over 1s charge on the Gauss is just cruel.
Give the cGauss a sub-1 'critDamageMultiplier' so it becomes not the best crit weapon in the game. Set it to '0.5', so 7.5 crit damage per crit.
Increase the isGauss HP, typical 10 starting point? Reduce chance or damage to explode. 3 tons could account for a safely mechanism.


I'd suggest something for Clan Lasers. Keep their normal range where they are to start, but reduce the Maximum Range to ~1.5x. cERML is still to 608M, and the cLPL to 900, but it's something unique that can be twisted.

There's also no math involved, as the Maximum Range is just another range (not 2x or 3x) so you could set the cERML to a 540M maximum range with a 450 optimal without issue (not that I would, but it should be possible)

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanERMediumLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanERML_desc" nameTag="@ClanERML"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.15" tons="1" maxRange="810" longRange="405" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="3.0" heat="6.0" impulse="0.0" minheatpenaltylevel="7" heatpenalty="1.4" heatdamage="0" damage="7" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Energy" slots="1" Health="10" visRange="1500" heatPenaltyID="10"/>

And the MG, for good measure

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\MachineGun.dds" descTag="@MachineGun_desc" nameTag="@MachineGun"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0" speed="100" lifetime="1.0" duration="-1.0" tons="0.5" maxRange="240.0" longRange="120.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="1" ammoType="MachineGunAmmo" cooldown="0.0" heat="0.0" impulse="0.001" heatdamage="0" damage="0.08" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Ballistic" slots="1" Health="10" spread="1.5" maxheight="0" critChanceIncrease="0.06,0.03,0.01" critDamMult="9.0" rof="10.0"/>

Note the '-1.0' duration and the Effect list referring to a Beam

-<EffectList>
<Effect name="Beam" asset=""/>
<Effect name="ParticleBeam" asset="mech_weapons.machine_gun.tracers"/>
<Effect name="TraceEffects" asset="machinegun"/>
<Effect name="Sound:FireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons:machinegun:machinegun_fire" float="0.0"/>
<Effect name="Sound:PostFireLoop" asset="sounds/weapons:machinegun:machinegun_tail" float="0.0"/>
<Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\ac_20.tif"/>
<Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="direct" float="4" float2="4"/>
</EffectList>

And the LB10x, for the glory of Stan (and CritDamMultiplier)

<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\LB10XAutoCannon.dds" descTag="@LB10-XAC_desc" nameTag="@LB10-XAC"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" gravity="0,0,-9.8" volleydelay="0" speed="1100" lifetime="10.0" duration="0.0" tons="11" maxRange="1620" longRange="540" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="1" ammoType="LB10-XACAmmo" cooldown="2.5" heat="2.0" impulse="0.04" heatdamage="0" damage="1" numFiring="1" projectileclass="bullet" type="Ballistic" slots="6" Health="10" spread="1.30" critChanceIncrease="0.14,0.08,0.03" critDamMult="2.0" numPerShot="10"/>

Which is a ballistic, and uses a projectile:

-<EffectList>
<Effect name="Projectile" mass="10" scale="1.0" asset="objects/weapons/autocannon_shell.cgf"/>
<Effect name="ProjectileMaterial" asset="mat_ac2"/>
<Effect name="Muzzle" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_2.muzzle_flash"/>
<Effect name="MuzzleFP" asset="mech_weapons.autocannon_2.muzzle_flash_fp"/>
<Effect name="Sound:Fire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:LB10_fire" float="0.0"/>
<Effect name="Sound:PostFire" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:LB10_tail" float="0.0"/>
<Effect name="Sound:Reload" asset="sounds/weapons:cannon:LB10_reload" float="1.5"/>
<Effect name="DamageBrush" asset="Textures\\decals\\damage_brushes\\ac_20.tif"/>
<Effect name="DamageBrushType" asset="direct" float="64" float2="64"/>
</EffectList>

And not a beam.




Well, that's good enough for now. There were other things I probably didn't agree on.

[Yosharian]

Paigan, on 19 September 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

For example:
- Strip Clan mechs of most/all module slots (maybe shift advanced zoom to general cockpit functions or leave some limited module slots in)
- Give IS more modules ("tinkering" on mechs), more consumable (probably free / reloading one) like mines, smoke, ammo packs, etc.
- Give IS considerably more drop tonnage (e.g. clan 240, IS 300 or so)
- Use some LIMITED quirks. Positive, but also negative ones.

That way, tha game can be balanced, but in a lore-friendly, asymmetrical way. Just like Starcraft is.

This is PAINFULLY simple to recognize.

1) Less module slots I'm in favour of, but stripped completely? Absolutely not. Besides, the Clan Trinity already have a small number of module slots.

2) Perhaps, but in this case I would make it a separate mechanic from modules.

3) I'm not really a big Community Warfare player, but didn't PGI just buff Inner Sphere drop deck tonnage? 60 tons more is way too much, though.

4) Quirks: can you be more specific?

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

SRMs aren't good enough, period. isSRMs need more damage (2.5), and a vanilla velocity buff to 500M/s wouldn't be too much.
The cSRM6 has a nearly 12M CoF, brought to 8M with Artemis, with the isSRM6 not far behind. Give cSRMs buffs, but less buffs than the IS. Probably damage; keep them at 2, but reduced spread (less than IS) and a velocity buff.

I don't think SRMs need that big of a buff.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

The MG needs more than that. Range is useless because of the 3M CoF, and the "Speed" is completely useless and not arguably useful; the MG is a laser. The projectile is completely separate and just fluff. Increasing the 'speed' does nothing to improve performance.
1 DPS, 0 CoF on the isMG, 0.5 'spread' (1M CoF) on the cMG. PGI won't change weight, adjust around that with stats.

I am fully aware that the MG is a 'laser'. Increasing the speed of the projectile is about communicating that to the player, rather than it being a hidden mechanic. I just picked a high number. I probably should have indicated it clearly. In my defense, I started writing this at 7am and was a bit out of it.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Flamer would still be rather useless at that point. Give it the same Dam/ton as the MG.

It would be substantially better than it is now.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

LFE won't balance the factions; they'll just kill the STD engine. Normalize the XL engines between the factions. Extend losing ST penalties to include Speed and Agility (Torso twist speed, accel, deccel, ETC...)
isXL doesn't die upon ST loss, but gets 60% effectiveness to speed, CT heatsinks, and agility. cXL gets a slight nerf to 75% with the same penalties.

I disagree that it won't balance them out; I think it will do just that. And killing the STD engine doesn't bother me. The STD engine could always be given bonus durability if LFE was implemented. That way there would be a reason to use it.

Normalizing XL engines won't happen. I prefer to discuss measures that have a chance of being implemented, rather than pie-in-the-sky.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

To prevent the STD from being obsolete, give it significant structure buffs. Present brainstorm, a blanket buff (same to a LOLcust or Atlas) to the tune of +30CT and +15-20ST.
Why ST buff? Why not.

Right, I agree completely.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Myth Lynx NARC buff?

No...just no.

Have you tried NARCing in it? I have it on very good authority that it is extremely potent.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

20% less ERML heat? That sounds nicer; unnerfed heat.

I don't remember suggesting this, but I don't think the cERML needs buffs.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Nova heat? I guess, but armour is far more important for the love child of the Dragon and the Awesome. Super wide with a big nose.

I'm fine with some CT durability quirks as well. I agree it's very easy to hit the CT.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Also on topic for the Myth Lynx: Give all mechs with a sub 250 engine heat gen quirks of +0.6x, x being the number of PoorDubs they're required to bring. Normalize the mechs to all have 10 TrueDubs with an easy bandaid fix.

PGI is already doing that. Built-in heat gen quirks for mechs that have 'PoorDubs'.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

The entire LBx family is bad; if PGI wants them to stay crit weapons, just increase the 'critDamageMultiplier' from 2 to 5. Suddenly, even the LB2x has a fair chance of destroying a non-Crit Padded item, while the LB10x would be very good, to the LB20x godly.
That, or increase damage 20-40%. Cooldown doesn't help it enough, as seen with the +57%RoF quirks. That's sub 2s cooldown.

I think crit seeking buffs are fine, I'm just not confident enough with the mechanics to make any concrete suggestions in that area.

I don't think increasing damage is the right method.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Having an over 1s charge on the Gauss is just cruel.
Give the cGauss a sub-1 'critDamageMultiplier' so it becomes not the best crit weapon in the game. Set it to '0.5', so 7.5 crit damage per crit.
Increase the isGauss HP, typical 10 starting point? Reduce chance or damage to explode. 3 tons could account for a safely mechanism.

I understand it's cruel, but 0.25s extra charge is not that bad, and Clan Gauss is way too powerful for its tonnage currently. I suppose reducing crit chance is a fair suggestion, but how good is its crit potential currently?

I'm not in favour of making Gauss less fragile.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

I'd suggest something for Clan Lasers. Keep their normal range where they are to start, but reduce the Maximum Range to ~1.5x. cERML is still to 608M, and the cLPL to 900, but it's something unique that can be twisted.

I saw that thread and I think it's a good idea.

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2015 - 07:22 AM, said:

Well, that's good enough for now. There were other things I probably didn't agree on.

Fair enough.

Edited by Yosharian, 19 September 2015 - 07:47 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Yosharian, on 19 September 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

I saw that thread and I think it's a good idea.


Fair enough.

Quote

I don't think SRMs need that big of a buff.

They most certainly do. They have a sub 300M range, with no extended range. They need to dominate at that range. They don't even dominate the 20M range; lasers are better. Everywhere, lasers are better.

Quote

It would be substantially better than it is now.

Marginally, not substantially.
They deal less damage than the MGs, at less range, generating heat.

Quote

I disagree that it won't balance them out; I think it will do just that. And killing the STD engine doesn't bother me. The STD engine could always be given bonus durability if LFE was implemented. That way there would be a reason to use it.

Normalizing XL engines won't happen. I prefer to discuss measures that have a chance of being implemented, rather than pie-in-the-sky.

Why wouldn't it be implemented? It's Find+Replace and Copy Paste code.
Easier than any other suggestion I've heard.

Quote

Have you tried NARCing in it? I have it on very good authority that it is extremely potent.



I don't remember suggesting this, but I don't think the cERML needs buffs.

Myth Lynx ERML quirks. NARC is useless on it, Fridge does that better.

That, or 75% MG RoF quirks. Fear the 8MG Myth Lynx.
Of course, removal of BAP works.

Quote

PGI is already doing that. Built-in heat gen quirks for mechs that have 'PoorDubs'.

1.9!=2.0

They did it poorly, and not on all the affected Mechs.

[Paigan]

Yosharian, on 19 September 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

1) Less module slots I'm in favour of, but stripped completely? Absolutely not. Besides, the Clan Trinity already have a small number of module slots.

2) Perhaps, but in this case I would make it a separate mechanic from modules.

3) I'm not really a big Community Warfare player, but didn't PGI just buff Inner Sphere drop deck tonnage? 60 tons more is way too much, though.

4) Quirks: can you be more specific?

For points 1-3 you have to keep one thing on mind: IS would no longer have their Uber quirks, making them SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than clans in comparison. So these "tactical bonuses" would make them on par with the clans, but not too good.

4) Well it's a basic concept, I have no exact list of "+XX%" quirks for every mech.
But the basic idea is: a very limited number of something around +5% to +15% (NOT more) and a limited number of negative quirks, to make mechs more distinct. And in the process slightly more positive quirks for is to complement points 1-3.

Simple examples: I always figures TBR arms should get an armor malus due to being so skinny. Mad Dogs should get a slight missile bonus (and maybe considerable laser malus) for being the Clan missile boat. Warhawk should get a general heat dissipation bonus for being the "heatsink" boat, and maybe some weapon cooldown maluses in return.

Similar for IS Mechs, of course. Atlas getting more armor, catapult some missile bonuses, etc. Giving mechs "character", not just magically quirk them up accross the board until lostech is superior to high tech.

Edited by Paigan, 19 September 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[Yosharian]

For the part of the thread where I talk about mech chassis balance, I'm assuming all weapon quirks stay.

If all the weapon quirks go then there's no hope for balance, period.

[Paigan]

Yosharian, on 19 September 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

For the part of the thread where I talk about mech chassis balance, I'm assuming all weapon quirks stay.

If all the weapon quirks go then there's no hope for balance, period.

I generally can't take people serious who think that writing "period" is an argument in itself like they personally are god or something and don't need to provide arguments. Writing that is an extreme sign of arrogance or ignorance (don't want to insinuate either)

[Yosharian]

Paigan, on 19 September 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

I generally can't take people serious who think that writing "period" is an argument in itself like they personally are god or something and don't need to provide arguments. Writing that is an extreme sign of arrogance or ignorance (don't want to insinuate either)

....

jeez...

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Matchmaking

Honestly weight is not a huge problem in having good matches. The number one problem and the one that can not be overlooked to many buckets. Playing solo right now works very well. In groups because of to many options including all group sizes except 11 and picking game modes its working less well. What is needed are less options for group play. It is really that simple. When the new PSR came out the matchmaking was very good but weight times were longer. Soon we will go to some kind of voting system for game mode that helps fix this.

As for weight limits to help make more mechs viable maybe. But keep in mind in group play 90% of groups are small. So how do you limit them and the over all group? If you make the average for a two man say 75 then you will have a huge number of two man groups with two 75 ton heavies. Then match making will slow down trying to put together something under the weight limit for each sides over all team. If you remove it then you will have mostly heavies like now.

Also if some one wants to run a 100 ton mech then the other person can only run a 50 ton mech. Then its you are not working together the same. Some times you want to bring two 100 ton mechs and work as a team.

Any way not sure weight limits would make the game better. Also not sure if there are not better ways to make more mechs viable.

Quote

Clan Lasers vs Inner Sphere Lasers
- Clan tech should be long duration, long range, high damage, high heat.
- IS tech should be low duration, low range, medium damage, low heat.

There is a basic problem with this. Large differences in Clan and IS do not work well. Because one or the other will end up being the meta then the other will not be used. So it works much better to have IS and Clan lasers balanced with only small differences. Is with only a LITTLE bit less range. And with only a LITTLE shorter burn time.

Also it makes a lot more sense to go ahead and add IS ER Small and Medium lasers and X-Pulse lasers and balance with those in mind. No reason to have to add them in later and redo things.

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Gauss

IS Clan Gauss balance should be worked on. And while you are doing it you might as well go ahead and add light and heavy gauss and do it all at one time. Again like lasers IS and Clan should be balanced without huge differences.

Quote

Autocannons

Like with lasers and Gauss IS and Clan should be just a little different in flavor but well balanced against each other. And like lasers and Gauss they should go ahead and add IS newer autocannons like the IS Ultra AC 20 and the IS Hypervelocity Autocannons.

Quote

LBX

LBX needs to have more damage end of story. They should adjust damage like the do for SRMs. It the most simple and effective way to make them better.

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LRM

Do not have a strong opinion on LRM except they should never be the dominant meta. Nothing is worse for the game than people being killed every match by LRMs from across the map.

Quote

Engines.

I agree indtroduce the light fusion engine and then balance all engines at the same time.

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Quirks

I agree they will always be needed. And I think if you balance IS/Clan weapons correctly you will not need huge weapons quirks.