113 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Lots of interesting ideas in this thread.

I'd just like to go on record to state that I think a removal of the minimum heat sink rule is counter-productive and the wrong way to go about it. Far better to give heat reduction quirks if the ideal solution of having all the first ten DHS be TrueDubs isn't feasible because PGI™.

Why? I've played a Commando with 7 SHS (back in CB). It's not enjoyable, and I'm fairly certain it'd overheat on Terra Therma from just walking, let alone firing anything. A 7 DHS Commando would be easier to manage, but it still loses about 4.2 heat capacity compared to a 10 DHS one in the current game.

As for buffing the Commando, I think several people are on the right track with missile buffs (not going to harp on again about the broken missile code, but yeah. Broken missile code is broken). The Commando is a fast, nimble 'mech that's severely hampered by the fact that it only ever has four hard points, and on all but one variant at least one of those is a missile hard point.

At 25 tons, it just cannot carry enough ammo to make those missile hard points deliver enough damage to make it competitive (and also, spread damage is of course worse than not spread damage), so an ammo buff would be very appreciated. In fact, any buff to missiles would be welcome for the Mando; be it range, spread, velocity, cooldown, ammo, or something else.

For a 'mech that's supposed to punch way over its weight class with the help of a lot of SRM tubes, it's kind of fascinating (in an "omg that's horrible" way) that one of the very best builds is the 2xLL one.

[MechWarrior5152251]

You would have 15% lights in que instead of 3%? Most people who play this game are simply too slow to be able to use lights effectively. It takes both twitch reflexes and paying attention to your surroundings. Most people here do not even notice their mech doll light up when someone is shooting them in the back...

[TwentyOne]

The game would become more diversified and fun. Nothing should exist in MWO that is 50% worse than something else. If a mech is _that_ bad then DO NOT PUT IN THE GAME. No other game puts purely useless **** in that nobody will use.



There's no reason all mechs of each mass cannot be within 10% +/- power rating of eachother. Yes a black knight and an orion should be able to fight an win vs a timber wolf. That is how game balance works in any other damn game. Otherwise why spend the time and money creating the BK and Orion?

[Rhaythe]

Deathlike, on 22 September 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

However, it won't ever happen because the event showed that everyone had to be in a bigger mech to get their required match score. Gee, I wonder why...

Got mine by slapping an UAC20 on my Badder. Felt antimeta to me almost.

[Burktross]

Buff the locust to cheatah levels and I will be unstoppable! Blood for the blood god!

[Davers]

Rhaythe, on 22 September 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

My mistake. That would be a major departure to have IS weapons doing MORE damage than clan counterparts though. I can foresee some public upheaval over that.

IS SRMs do more damage than IS SSRMS or Clan SRMs of any type right now. About .15 more which isn't really noticeable.

[sycocys]

stjobe, on 22 September 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

Lots of interesting ideas in this thread.

I'd just like to go on record to state that I think a removal of the minimum heat sink rule is counter-productive and the wrong way to go about it. Far better to give heat reduction quirks if the ideal solution of having all the first ten DHS be TrueDubs isn't feasible because PGI™.

I didn't really make my notion of the heat sink min very clear - I think I would give the 25 ton and under, running 245 and lower 3 "magically invisible and weightless" heat sinks. Removing the outside sink requirement, but still having the technical minimum amount.

Yes I know its magic, but once you go up that next 5-10 tons you can equip engines that don't require 3 additional sinks, have more hard points and better armor all at once. Giving these little guys those 3 for being little isn't going to upset the balance and it would let the players still decide how they like to build them out. Past the fact that I really dislike the quirk system, if you do add mega quirks all you end up doing is forcing these mechs to be legit with only the things that are quirked.

Edited by sycocys, 22 September 2015 - 09:52 AM.

[Davers]

MechWarrior5152251, on 22 September 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

You would have 15% lights in que instead of 3%? Most people who play this game are simply too slow to be able to use lights effectively. It takes both twitch reflexes and paying attention to your surroundings. Most people here do not even notice their mech doll light up when someone is shooting them in the back...

Not really understanding your point here.

We shouldn't have more people playing lights because players don't have good twitch reflexes?

[GreyNovember]

sycocys, on 22 September 2015 - 09:51 AM, said:

I didn't really make my notion of the heat sink min very clear - I think I would give the 25 ton and under, running 245 and lower 3 "magically invisible and weightless" heat sinks. Removing the outside sink requirement, but still having the technical minimum amount.

Yes I know its magic, but once you go up that next 5-10 tons you can equip engines that don't require 3 additional sinks, have more hard points and better armor all at once. Giving these little guys those 3 for being little isn't going to upset the balance and it would let the players still decide how they like to build them out. Past the fact that I really dislike the quirk system, if you do add mega quirks all you end up doing is forcing these mechs to be legit with only the things that are quirked.

You can't really have more armor than max though, unless you're already shaving off a significant portion of armor for it to matter.

Point taken that Quirks basically force it into that role, but you can always build it as you already have, while ignoring the quirk. It's not going to be optimal, but the commando and lynx aren't. Be it chassis shape, engine limit, or hardlocked equipment. The system you propose doesn't really incentivize using the missile based commandos; Granted you get more ammo from free tonnage.

Again, the solution I'm gunning for is to make the change as simple as possible. No geometry change. No unintended consequences of changing heat sink mechanics for sub 250 engines. No relocating/adding hardpoints. Take the one mech, quirk it in vaccum, then compare it's relative power level to it's variants, then to the baseline; which would be just below the cheetah.

[Tahribator]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. We can't have too many viable 'Mechs in this game! /s

[sycocys]

GreyNovember, on 22 September 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

You can't really have more armor than max though, unless you're already shaving off a significant portion of armor for it to matter.

The heavier mechs simply have more armor to allot, that's all that is too that.

I wouldn't mess with the engines at all, just give these mechs that are 25 tons and under 3 free heat sinks and call it a day. 3 tons of extra missile ammo or a larger launcher an 2 tons is far more than you'd ever need in one of these mechs anyhow.

Edited by sycocys, 22 September 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[sceii]

Rhaythe, on 22 September 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Got mine by slapping an UAC20 on my Badder. Felt antimeta to me almost.

It is damn hard to get 400 points in uac20badder, but fairly east to get 300. You usually have 3 to 5 tons of uac20 ammo, depending on your secondary guns. It is 420+4ersl damage potential or raw 700 without ersl.(if you manage to place all bullets in enemy)
Still a superfun skirmisher/ambusher type of a mech. No one expect this small critter pack a 60dmg alpha strike.

[Rushmoar]

I'm all for diversity. So no, I don't want to see a Mist Lynx be as the same as a Cheeta. If you want something that plays like a Cheeta then pilot a Cheeta. But the Lynx needs to be useful to the team and play a roll in its victory. Cheeta is a 35 tonner to the 25 tonner Mist Lynx. They should not be equal but the Lynx does need to do somethings better over the Cheeta. Fire power and armor goes to the Cheeta so pure survivability should fall to the Lynx. The Lynx needs to be harder to kill then a Cheeta. Just my opinion here.

Also I'm for all lights having leg armor or structure bonuses. The legs will always be the weak spot for lights. So I didn't do any QQing when the Cheeta kept its quirks for the legs on the last balance pass for the Cheeta. The Cheeta did need a nerf, that was for sure. Think more light should get quirks for their legs.

[GreyNovember]

Rushmoar, on 22 September 2015 - 10:49 AM, said:

I'm all for diversity. So no, I don't want to see a Mist Lynx be as the same as a Cheeta. If you want something that plays like a Cheeta then pilot a Cheeta. But the Lynx needs to be useful to the team and play a roll in its victory. Cheeta is a 35 tonner to the 25 tonner Mist Lynx. They should not be equal but the Lynx does need to do somethings better over the Cheeta. Fire power and armor goes to the Cheeta so pure survivability should fall to the Lynx. The Lynx needs to be harder to kill then a Cheeta. Just my opinion here.

Also I'm for all lights having leg armor or structure bonuses. The legs will always be the weak spot for lights. So I didn't do any QQing when the Cheeta kept its quirks for the legs on the last balance pass for the Cheeta. The Cheeta did need a nerf, that was for sure. Think more light should get quirks for their legs.

You then give us the problem of the Atlas compared to a Banshee, only the roles are now reversed.

The Lynx is durable. Okay. But it's still slower, hotter, and weaker than the Cheetah, which is 30 tons. Not 35. Everything basically points to the cheetah at this rate still.

Trust me, if the cheetah was 35 tons, I'd be a touch more insistent on how hard these mechs should be quirked.

[FupDup]

GreyNovember, on 22 September 2015 - 10:55 AM, said:

You then give us the problem of the Atlas compared to a Banshee, only the roles are now reversed.

The Lynx is durable. Okay. But it's still slower, hotter, and weaker than the Cheetah, which is 30 tons. Not 35. Everything basically points to the cheetah at this rate still.

Trust me, if the cheetah was 35 tons, I'd be a touch more insistent on how hard these mechs should be quirked.

Fun fact: A 35-ton Cheeto would gain +2 tons of pod space, +1 internal Trudub, and some additional structure + armor. It would only lose a little bit of jump height...but easily worth it. The speed would be identical.

Edited by FupDup, 22 September 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[GreyNovember]

FupDup, on 22 September 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Fun fact: A 35-ton Cheeto would gain +2 tons of pod space, +1 internal Trudub, and some additional structure + armor. It would only lose a little bit of jump weight...but easily worth it. The speed would be identical.

That's the speed at least. But it'd still out alpha, and be colder than the lynx.

[DivineTomatoes]

All this whining about the cheetah, christ.

The locust and the commando are already fine mehcs, you just need to play them correctly.

Cheetah is pretty much easy mode, the locust and commando don't need anything done to them and they should be reserved for the people that know what to do with them.

[GreyNovember]

Reaver2145, on 22 September 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

All this whining about the cheetah, christ.

The locust and the commando are already fine mehcs, you just need to play them correctly.

Cheetah is pretty much easy mode, the locust and commando don't need anything done to them and they should be reserved for the people that know what to do with them.

Please point out the whining.

That's great that you are part of the people who can use them as they are, But you didn't give a reason as to why they shouldn't be buffed to be of similar value to a cheetah or a firestarter.

Locusts, at least the 1E, are fine. It's got 6SPL and runs at 170 speeds. So I'm not arguing on that front.

[sycocys]

Personally I'd put the the Commandos other than the 1D (reasons I mentioned) on par with both the Firestarter or Cheetah. It's just a different play style, there's no tanking anything and pure ninja action but the maneuverability of the chassis far outpaces any of the other lights hands down.

It's only actual shortfall is the limited ammo space when it comes to most of the variants having missile hardpoints. I generally just run 2s on them, but it would be nicer to run 4s or a 6.

[Mcgral18]

Reaver2145, on 22 September 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

The locust and the commando are already fine mehcs, you just need to play them correctly.

I don't like people who say this.