135 replies to this topic

[Scar Glamour]

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 07:45 AM, said:

Your problem is reading comprehension and I can't help you with that. My point----->Over your head.



Though to be frank... I'm not sure how reading a book on improving reading comprehension will help someone with reading comprehension issues to begin with. What if they don't comprehend the reading comprehension helper book? Go figure. There's self help for everything!

Now I realize why so many people believe that the official forums are full of arseholes.

On a side note, you cannot possibly be so dumb as to hint at my problems with reading comprehension when you blatantly refused to explain anything. So I figure you're just trolling.

[Ultimax]

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

What about the folks who steal kills with impunity? There really are players around here who think that scoring 200 damage while getting four kills is a sign of skill and efficiency.

You're not actually countering my point.

I'm not saying running around kill stealing should be the primary factor in deciding match scores.

I'm saying raw damage alone shouldn't count for so much.


I'm saying that the match score needs to be derived from a number of factors without a single one dominating.



Not to mention, that running around killing weak mechs is basically the role of many lights.


Sandblasting mechs with auto-aim Streak-crows and generating inflated damage shouldn't be so heavily rewarded in the match score.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 September 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Winterburn, on 22 September 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Now I realize why so many people believe that the official forums are full of arseholes.

On a side note, you cannot possibly be so dumb as to hint at my problems with reading comprehension when you blatantly refused to explain anything. So I figure you're just trolling.

I gave you my answer several posts back. Just re-read them. You'll get it, I promise!

Not trolling, I'm genuinely trying to be helpful.

I once had a Biology Professor about two and a half decades ago--he was a nice, smart guy. I happened to do very well in his class. One day we were dissecting creatures of sorts--I think they were frogs but could have been worms. Anyways, I was walking around the room and a fellow student asked me a question--an answer to something. Instead of giving him an answer, I responded with another question...

The question I posed to him had the answer buried inside it--it gave him the tools he needed to not just solve that problem, but many other problems too!

He looked at me and blinked. He was not happy. The professor, however, was.

If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 22 September 2015 - 07:55 AM.

[Davers]

New Player: What's the best way to get a better Tier?

Answer: Mix in some missiles in with your lasers.

Diversity Achieved! or Unintended Consequences? You Decide!

[Scar Glamour]

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

I gave you my answer several posts back. Just re-read them. You'll get it, I promise!

Not trolling, I'm genuinely trying to be helpful.

I once had a Biology Professor about two and a half decades ago--he was a nice, smart guy. I happened to do very well in his class. One day we were dissecting creatures of sorts--I think they were frogs but could have been worms. Anyways, I was walking around the room and a fellow student asked me a question--an answer to something. Instead of giving him an answer, I responded with another question...

The question I posed to him had the answer buried inside it--it gave him the tools he needed to not just solve that problem, but many other problems too!

He looked at me and blinked. He was not happy. The professor, however, was.

If you give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. If you teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime.

"A sophism is a specious argument for displaying ingenuity in reasoning or for deceiving someone. A sophist is a person who reasons with clever but fallacious and deceptive arguments."

Edited by Winterburn, 22 September 2015 - 08:00 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Ultimatum X, on 22 September 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

You're not actually countering my point.

I'm not saying running around kill stealing should be the primary factor in deciding match scores.

I'm saying raw damage alone shouldn't count for so much.


I'm saying that the match score needs to be derived from a number of factors without a single one dominating.

I'm not trying to. I'm salting the pie so it has more flavor--i.e. enriching the discussion with more stuff to think about.

I agree--it shouldn't be derived from one number alone. But I also don't want it to be strong derivative of kills like I've seen some on these forums argue for.

But damage should be a sizeable component of it. Terribad hill is only a few hundred points shy of 50 damage done. Crest it and you enter the real world.

So maybe make damage a weighted metric. If you do less than say 200, have it penalize you, if you do over 500 have it reward you but with diminishing returns. If you do 700 - 900 the benefit lessens until at say 1000+ you aren't improving your match score at all.

That's one way to do it (those are arbitrary numbers on the high end) and reduce how significant it is while not removing it from a core dominant trait.

[Mister Blastman]

Winterburn, on 22 September 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

"A sophism is a specious argument for displaying ingenuity in reasoning or for deceiving someone. A sophist is a person who reasons with clever but fallacious and deceptive arguments.

Now you're quoting stuff on the internet. That's dangerous. Please go back and read my earlier posts. They were meaty and full of substance.

Legend has it someone once challenged Ernest Hemingway to write the shortest story possible. So he accepted and came up with the following: "For sale: baby shoes, never worn."

Now this is just an Urban Legend, of course, but it highlights the crux of Hemingway's style--saying the most with the least amount of words possible. I gave you your answer. Go read my previous posts, stop trying to be clever and my point will come to you after some thought.

(and yes, sometimes I really can be an elitist ********.)

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 22 September 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Damage farming gives you big numbers.

Removing an ST gives you the damage from the arm as well, thus dual STing a Whale would give you 400 damage VS the 200 from the CT.

There's still a technique to it, you can't be a Terribad and consistently get high scores, but it is less efficient on paper.

In practice, it's hard to CT core a good player, and I find it easier to just take both STs.
Avoid that 60% damage reduction when possible.

One issue? As always, bigger is better. Heavies and Assaults can consistently get higher scores than Lights and Meds.
Puts Light pilots at a disadvantage, even the Cheetah and FS-9.

From whom do you think demands for massive nerfs to Cheetah and FS-9 came from?

[Scar Glamour]

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

(and yes, sometimes I really can be an elitist ********.)

Sorry to break it for you scrub, but going to school and repeating your professors' stories on the forum doesn't make you sound like an elitist. It makes you sound like a person desperate for attention.

Also, Santa isn't real. Yeah, I am feeling extra cruel today.

[Ultimax]

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

I agree--it shouldn't be derived from one number alone. But I also don't want it to be strong derivative of kills like I've seen some on these forums argue for.

Is that what I'm arguing for? Did you read my OP and further points?

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

But damage should be a sizeable component of it. Terribad hill is only a few hundred points shy of 50 damage done. Crest it and you enter the real world.

You keep resorting to this logical fallacy.


You don't need strawman arguments to have a discussion with me.


I've never said terribads doing low damage and kill stealing should get high match scores, and I think you seriously over-estimate the number of people with low damage but high kills running around.


If you do 600 damage and get 6 kills in an FS9, that's a great match. That's efficiency, that's not a scrub "stealing kills".

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 September 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Winterburn, on 22 September 2015 - 08:15 AM, said:

Sorry to break it for you scrub, but going to school and repeating your professors' stories on the forum doesn't make you sound like an elitist. It makes you sound like a person desperate for attention.

Also, Santa isn't real. Yeah, I am feeling extra cruel today.

lol

I'm hurt. I'll go back to scrubbing your [censored]'s [censored]. Even the forums have limits to what I can say.

/skulks back into corner, curls up into little ball and rocks against the wall while playing the guitar.

[Mister Blastman]

Ultimatum X, on 22 September 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

Is that what I'm arguing for? Did you read my OP and further points?




You keep resorting to this logical fallacy.


You don't need strawman arguments to have a discussion with me.


I've never said terribads doing low damage and kill stealing should get high match scores, and I think you seriously over-estimate the number of people with low damage but high kills running around.


If you do 600 damage and get 6 kills in an FS9, that's a great match. That's efficiency, that's not a scrub "stealing kills".

Wow. I don't know what to say. You should lay off the caffeine. I'm not attacking your position--I'm instead expressing as a devil's advocate that other folks might want to see kills count for more. Or did you miss those threads?

I'm trying to enhance your argument for a modification to match score!

What is wrong with everyone here today? Did the stupid truck roll by or something?

Sheesh.

I said 200 damage and four kills. I've seen the threads. They're here. I've seen the players in the game--I saw some this weekend!

Now quit feeling attacked and look at how I made your argument stronger with my post about derivatives. It can only make the solution better and falls in line with your original line of thinking.

I'm trying to help.™

[Deathlike]

I had been arguing this point when the new PSR system was deployed. People had been telling me "you don't know what's changed" and all this.

So, we'd had PSR for how long now? Maybe a month?

Now we have a tourney to explore/exploit holes in the logic/theory.

I feel like all the things I've said before about PSR came to fruition, and this event doubled down on what I projected. Please feel free to look over what I said about match score when the new PSR system debuted or about to debut.

Either I'm some genius (which I'm not) or that PGI fell into the logical trap they set up for themselves.


There was a point way back when that "Match Score" should be used more was a chant, but I don't think anyone in their right minds though this was the way to go exclusively, since matches themselves taken in numeric form lacked total context to a player's contribution to a match. Being a tank to allow the team to win doesn't raise match score, but doing damage in all subpar weapons such as LRMs, LBX, and MGs would give you scores that are so meaningless that people would put themselves in Tiers that they don't belong (some people will be in higher tiers that shouldn't be there, probably including myself).


So, thanks PGI, for validating what I thought about the entire revamped Match Score system. Who thought PGI liked making me some sort of prophet?

[Raggedyman]

Ultimatum X, on 22 September 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

What's your opinion of this?

Tier's aren't going to be perfect when they come out, however the core concept of what they should do has merit to it so as long as they look at how things are working post launch and go "mokay.... we wanted to be HERE but we ended up here,
how do we fix that?" then it'll all be good in the end.

[Felio]

So pinpoint front-loaded damage gets low PSR, and streak boats get high PSR. Sounds... bad.

[XX Sulla XX]

Its fine the way its setup. If you notice the better players do more consistant damage do matter what mechs and weapons they are using. And they also do it in losses. Bad players will hit a wall pretty quickly as they run into better players no matter what weapons etc they are using.

[Lugh]

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

What about the folks who steal kills with impunity? There really are players around here who think that scoring 200 damage while getting four kills is a sign of skill and efficiency.

It is, as they are finishing mechs that could be retreating away from your fire, or someone else's fire and would otherwise survive and put more damage on your team.

If I am in a fast Medium or Light and I see the cherry red dude going hull down over that hill over yonder and I can put fire on him to finish him, that's MY job.

If I don't that cherry red CT Dire whale comes around behind the team, because PATIENCE, and suddenly the team is Down three mechs in short order.

[Mister Blastman]

Lugh, on 22 September 2015 - 08:49 AM, said:

It is, as they are finishing mechs that could be retreating away from your fire, or someone else's fire and would otherwise survive and put more damage on your team.

If I am in a fast Medium or Light and I see the cherry red dude going hull down over that hill over yonder and I can put fire on him to finish him, that's MY job.

If I don't that cherry red CT Dire whale comes around behind the team, because PATIENCE, and suddenly the team is Down three mechs in short order.

That's doing your job as a light 'mech. I wasn't referring to that.

What I was talking about is folks who stay away from their team, refuse to take damage and plink from far, far away, waiting for the hole to open up and finish the job. By staying out of the action they don't help spread the enemy damage making it harder for the rest of their team to win.

[Davers]

We will have to wait and see how it pans out. If it turns out that players that are universally thought of as 'good' end up Tier 3 then we know we have a problem.

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

That's doing your job as a light 'mech. I wasn't referring to that.

What I was talking about is folks who stay away from their team, refuse to take damage and plink from far, far away, waiting for the hole to open up and finish the job. By staying out of the action they don't help spread the enemy damage making it harder for the rest of their team to win.

Why couldn't you have just said this to Winterburn and avoided a whole page worth of argument?

[Lugh]

Mister Blastman, on 22 September 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

That's doing your job as a light 'mech. I wasn't referring to that.

What I was talking about is folks who stay away from their team, refuse to take damage and plink from far, far away, waiting for the hole to open up and finish the job. By staying out of the action they don't help spread the enemy damage making it harder for the rest of their team to win.

Oh you mean all those locust and raven 3l pilots ..gotcha...