339 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

GeneralArmchair, on 23 September 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

The clan counterpart will be the Jenenr IIC, and by all indications will blow the Huginn out of the water just like the Arctic Cheater blew the Firestarter out of the water in the laser brawl game.

Which I have to tell you now is a mech that is not even out yet. And it will not blow the Huginn out of the water. (that and the arctic cheetah didn't blow the firestarter out of the water, it blew the spider which makes sense as the spider is an anti infantry support mech and not a 'laser brawler' ).

In the meta of things: Oxide will not really be around to much as an SRM platform I would think. My reasoning is the fact the other variants got 2 to 6 energy hardpoints and we would expect laser builds and/or sniper builds to be more common then the missile one. however this is also the case for the stormcrow. We may see a streak boat platform instead (6 x SSRM2?). It will be a pretty devestating mech firepower wise but the raven has an advantage the Jenner IIc does not have. Size and hitbox. jenner IIC is larger then the jenner and we all know the huge CT problem, now all or nearly all of it's weapons will be having 'catapult ear' arms that will come of with ease...

That and if anything, the Jenner IIC will blow the adder, kitfox, mist lynx, and ice ferret out of the water. It can LRM boat better then all of those, SRM boat, SRM + LRM boat, Laser boat, ER PPC boat, Brawl, Snipe, Skirmish, scout, etc.

Literally everything. which just shows the many problems of omnitech... do not expect most people to be jumping and yelling "OP" at the Raptor- the IS "Cicada" that's a 25 ton mech with omnitech http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Raptor ... luckily it has DHS unlike the owens...

But I would rather say we shouldn't discuss to heavily on the jenner IIC, it isn't out yet, we haven't seen in game screenshots, etc. PGI can screw it over from concept art and make all the missiles very low, make it very wide, etc.

Or PGI took some peoples suggestions (including mine) to nerf clan tech on a battlemech, for instance SRM's come out in volleys of 2 or stream out like there LRM conterparts. Longer beam duration, etc. I doubt any meta player would take the Jenner IIC if the SRM and SSRM's spewl out in a stream.

[Victorion]

Bloody, on 23 September 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

yup, why support until you are sure that the Mech is playable? because 2 of the BK designs are not even worth spending the CBs or time to level.

I have no idea what your expectations in life is mate but do you go to a restaurant and order something, realize that its is **** and then order a different dish from the same cook and expect something different? \

If so, ermm i got a car to sell you, actually I have 2 cars to sell you...

Comparing going out to dinner with... a digital mech that isn't performing exactly how you want it to.

I don't even know how to respond to this.

I will say though, that I actually put some thought into my purchase, and due to that, I am satisfied with said purchase.

We saw how quirks we're on the PTS, we've heard how large, meta warping quirks are the last thing the developers want to make right now.

So right off the bat before I bought it, I knew it wasn't going to have the 25-50% quirks people obsess over.

It was also very obvious that it was not going to be very good in the high alpha, low heat, high hardpoint meta.

And yet your most prevalent complaint around the forums is... that it's not quirked to hell, and has low hard points..

I mean... did you just hear "BLACK KNIGHT" and hit buy without even contemplating how the chassis was going to fit in with the overall game?

How many people do you think are going to do the exact same thing when the Warhammer gets released, due to it having basically the exact same hardpoint set up?

Are we going to have to go through this same old song and dance again?

Because I'm starting to get the impression that this is what a lot of its detractors did.

I went into buying it with procedural expectations based on what I observed PGI was trending towards quirk wise, and the geometry that I saw on the mech itself.

A lot of people seem to have done the opposite, and simply, and stupidly, expected it to be quirked into Tier I, without even bothering to read the writing on the wall.

Edited by Victorion, 23 September 2015 - 08:48 PM.

[Nightshade24]

MischiefSC, on 23 September 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

Who in the world called the Mauler P2W? The things T3. Maybe a couple T2 options for the put tier. Banshee uses it as a marital aid to violate actual dangerous enemies though by comparison.

If IS packs came out as solid as Clan packs nobody would 'whine'. It would be the first time in over 2 years that IS mech bundles, or in fact IS mechs at all, were not terribad out of the box.

The same people who get 800+ damage in a mauler before getting basics (this includes me, personally I am in love with that thing) and the same people who look at it and go...

"Replaces awesome... check"
"Replaces all but the stalker 4N.... check"
"Replaces the wubshee.... check"
"Replacess dakka banshe.... check"
"IS conterpart to the dakka Direwolf... check"

Granted for me no mech is obsolete and/ or replaced unless a silly happens (ie Thunderbolt being able to out do 4 warhawks in a PPC damage fight) (or the mist lynx... mist lynx would be worth it again after strong info-warfare quirks come in)


But I think the mauler is a very good IS mech and probably the best one right after a pack release for IS thus far. (Founders do not count, they comprise 50% of the mechs in the game at the time of release back when the jenner was OP because it can win a 1 vs 1 with literally any mech in game at the time or back when running 6 SRM 6's was cool on a catapult or so on..)
Maybe it's just me... but I can say for certain I will love the wolfhound.

[Bloody]

The writing on the wall says that me the consumer deserves a product which is fit to purpose. Now again, YOU might be content with a sub par performing product, and you certainly put a lot of effort into buying knowing it was going to be ****. While as i am not content and as the consumer i will exercise my right to actually demand a better product.

See here is the crux of the issue, you have much lower expectations than me.I want a better product, I want my money to be spent to my level of expectations , where as you are content to receive whatever the developer sees fit to shovel onto your plate and you actually defend such business practices.

So again, i have 2 vehicles to sell you. Dont worry, i am sure you will be fine with it given your background of purchasing decisions.

[MischiefSC]

Nightshade24, on 23 September 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

The same people who get 800+ damage in a mauler before getting basics (this includes me, personally I am in love with that thing) and the same people who look at it and go...

"Replaces awesome... check"
"Replaces all but the stalker 4N.... check"
"Replaces the wubshee.... check"
"Replacess dakka banshe.... check"
"IS conterpart to the dakka Direwolf... check"

Granted for me no mech is obsolete and/ or replaced unless a silly happens (ie Thunderbolt being able to out do 4 warhawks in a PPC damage fight) (or the mist lynx... mist lynx would be worth it again after strong info-warfare quirks come in)


But I think the mauler is a very good IS mech and probably the best one right after a pack release for IS thus far. (Founders do not count, they comprise 50% of the mechs in the game at the time of release back when the jenner was OP because it can win a 1 vs 1 with literally any mech in game at the time or back when running 6 SRM 6's was cool on a catapult or so on..)
Maybe it's just me... but I can say for certain I will love the wolfhound.

That only works if you're playing bads. The Mauler plays like a Dire Wolf with less armor, less DPS and a tiny, tiny increase in mobility.

I've never had an issue with a Mauler since it's been out. In fact I hunt them in any banshee build I play, or Battlemaster.

YMMV. Try to take one into any competitive environment like CW or even group queue. It'll go down crazy fast.

[Victorion]

Bloody, on 23 September 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

The writing on the wall says that me the consumer deserves a product which is fit to purpose. Now again, YOU might be content with a sub par performing product, and you certainly put a lot of effort into buying knowing it was going to be ****. While as i am not content and as the consumer i will exercise my right to actually demand a better product.

See here is the crux of the issue, you have much lower expectations than me.I want a better product, I want my money to be spent to my level of expectations , where as you are content to receive whatever the developer sees fit to shovel onto your plate and you actually defend such business practices.

So again, i have 2 vehicles to sell you. Dont worry, i am sure you will be fine with it given your background of purchasing decisions.

Better is completely subjective.

Change fit to purpse with "fit to the purpose I inherently desire" and you have a much more accurate statement.

"See here is the crux of the issue, you have much lower expectations than me.I want a better product, I want my money to be spent to my level of expectations , where as you are content to receive whatever the developer sees fit to shovel onto your plate and you actually defend such business practices"

*facepalm*

I saw a mech I liked the visuals of, I saw a mech that I liked what type (not position) the hard points had, and made my decision to purchase it from there.

No, I am not content to take whatever PGI shovels on to my plate.

I made a concientious decision to purchase the Black Knight for what I observed it was going to have.

It seems like to me you did exactly what you are accusing me of.

Pushing the buy button and just going "SHUR HOPE PGI DOES ME GUD" and then getting upset when they don't build a mech to your exact fantastical specifications.

[Escef]

MischiefSC, on 23 September 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

YMMV. Try to take one into any competitive environment like CW or even group queue. It'll go down crazy fast.

A mech does not need to be competition viable to be usable or fun. Most of the people that play this game do not do so competitively. And, TBH, competitive play of most games crushes the fun out of the endeavor.

[Victorion]

Escef, on 23 September 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

A mech does not need to be competition viable to be usable or fun. Most of the people that play this game do not do so competitively. And, TBH, competitive play of most games crushes the fun out of the endeavor.

Seriously, can not agree with this enough.

I can not understand how large swaths of people who comment in this forum absolutely can not or outright refuse to wrap their head around this.

We get it.

You and your Tier I buddies wouldn't be caught dead in a comp match in anything less then a Thunderbolt, Timberwolf, or Dire Wolf.

Please tell us how this is in any way, shape or form, relevant to the vast majority of the rest of the player base.

Edited by Victorion, 23 September 2015 - 09:31 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Escef, on 23 September 2015 - 09:25 PM, said:

A mech does not need to be competition viable to be usable or fun. Most of the people that play this game do not do so competitively. And, TBH, competitive play of most games crushes the fun out of the endeavor.

Okay, it's really simple. There are different levels of performance, right? Not everything is going to be the same tier. Mechs are going to run from Tier 1 to Tier 5. Nobody is arguing that. Ideally we'd like performance from T5 to T1 to be as close as possible but difference is inevitable, even desireable.

The problem is that we've only gotten T5-T3 for the IS for 2 years. No T2, no T1 options.

Think of it like cars. Yes, a basic Sedan is a car and drives around. If, however, for the EXACT SAME PRICE you can get a Ferrari or Porche or high performance car why is it somehow a bad thing to want at least 1 or 2 good cars available. You enjoy owning a beater? Great. Glad for you. There's nothing wrong with wanting at least the option for something a bit nicer sometimes.

[Nightshade24]

MischiefSC, on 23 September 2015 - 09:22 PM, said:

That only works if you're playing bads. The Mauler plays like a Dire Wolf with less armor, less DPS and a tiny, tiny increase in mobility.

I've never had an issue with a Mauler since it's been out. In fact I hunt them in any banshee build I play, or Battlemaster.

YMMV. Try to take one into any competitive environment like CW or even group queue. It'll go down crazy fast.

CW isn't a competetive enviroment. It's just an environment where large competitive units have fun seal clubbing smaller units/ pugs for free C-bills or abuse the limited playerbase to basically make it a 12 vs 12 private match but with c-bill rewards so it feels like less of a waste of time.

Also I've seen many LRM atlases on the enemy Team in CW- very competetive... (note you can't complain about my tier as CW is tierless in MM even if I am the best (or worst) player out there I will still see the same player who has 4 LRM 10's and 2 small lasers on an atlas)

[Victorion]

MischiefSC, on 23 September 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

Think of it like cars. Yes, a basic Sedan is a car and drives around. If, however, for the EXACT SAME PRICE you can get a Ferrari or Porche or high performance car why is it somehow a bad thing to want at least 1 or 2 good cars available. You enjoy owning a beater? Great. Glad for you. There's nothing wrong with wanting at least the option for something a bit nicer sometimes.

How about we think of it like something it actually forms a decent analogy with?

Comparing an old beater and a Ferrari to a Black Knight and a top tier mech is beyond far off.

[Bloody]

Victorion, on 23 September 2015 - 09:24 PM, said:

Pushing the buy button and just going "SHUR HOPE PGI DOES ME GUD" and then getting upset when they don't build a mech to your exact fantastical specifications.

yes because i got the Mauler package right? So they then included paid for, the Black Knight, they did not give me the option to EXCLUDE the black knight? If i had the opportunity i would have but they did not. So now i am demanding they make the BK better or give me a refund. So your assumption is wrong, and you seem content with the BK, so why are you even in this thread?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I get the odd feeling that if someone decided to get a refund for the pack based on just how bad the BK is (IE the normal reason you get a refund - because the product was faulty or bad) the answer would be "we promised to deliver the mech, we never said it would be good"

[Escef]

MischiefSC, on 23 September 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

Okay, it's really simple.

It absolutely is. So stop trying to make it more complicated.

[MischiefSC]

Victorion, on 23 September 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

How about we think of it like something it actually forms a decent analogy with?

Comparing an old beater and a Ferrari to a Black Knight and a top tier mech is beyond far off.

Nope. I could beat a BK with a Timber Wolf 50 times over 50 matches 1 v 1. No question, at all, in any way. With even moderately comparable pilots. I would rather face a Black Knight than a Quickdraw - the QD could, at least, out-maneuver me and get lucky on the right map. The BK has the option of dying quickly or dying slowly if it goes and finds a corner and powers down. In theory you could load ERPPCs, back up into the water on Forest Colony with a BK and hope that the TW loaded all CERMLs and pray that you manage to CT it out before it closes I guess?

Nightshade24, on 23 September 2015 - 09:34 PM, said:

CW isn't a competetive enviroment. It's just an environment where large competitive units have fun seal clubbing smaller units/ pugs for free C-bills or abuse the limited playerbase to basically make it a 12 vs 12 private match but with c-bill rewards so it feels like less of a waste of time.

Also I've seen many LRM atlases on the enemy Team in CW- very competetive... (note you can't complain about my tier as CW is tierless in MM even if I am the best (or worst) player out there I will still see the same player who has 4 LRM 10's and 2 small lasers on an atlas)

CW is a hugely competitive environment that people who are not competitive go into, get stomped, and then get upset over. That there are bad players who play CW doesn't somehow make bad mechs a good thing.

If someone plays CW and isn't going in with a competitive mindset they're literally sandbagging their faction. Fortunately that doesn't really matter right now but CW is, without question, a 'competitive' environment. There is no MM to try to keep the tryhards from playing against the scrubs.

[Victorion]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 23 September 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

I get the odd feeling that if someone decided to get a refund for the pack based on just how bad the BK is (IE the normal reason you get a refund - because the product was faulty or bad) the answer would be "we promised to deliver the mech, we never said it would be good"

Translation: I'm disenfranchised with my purchase, and I'm looking to place blame on something other then myself.

PGI showed its hard points before it was released.

They showed its quirks before it was released.

At that point, people still had (iirc) 48 hours to cancel their pre-orders if they were not satisfied with the quirks or the hard points.

Want a refund? Go get one. Put your money where your mouth is.

Edited by Victorion, 23 September 2015 - 09:58 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 23 September 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

I get the odd feeling that if someone decided to get a refund for the pack based on just how bad the BK is (IE the normal reason you get a refund - because the product was faulty or bad) the answer would be "we promised to deliver the mech, we never said it would be good"

Nope, I got a refund. I bought a Mauler stand-alone pack (since I already had it and played it) and they refunded by R2 pack. They were very cool about it and very polite. Have never had an issue with PGI support.

[Victorion]

MischiefSC, on 23 September 2015 - 09:56 PM, said:

Nope. I could beat a BK with a Timber Wolf 50 times over 50 matches 1 v 1.

Good thing this is a 1 v1 MechDuel game, with no teams, and just single combatants fighting each other miles away from other battles.

Oh, wait...

[Bloody]

Victorion, on 23 September 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

How about we think of it like something it actually forms a decent analogy with?

Comparing an old beater and a Ferrari to a Black Knight and a top tier mech is beyond far off.

It is hardly other peoples fault that they have high expectations and you do not.. there are 2 builds on the timberwolf which is comparable to the BK, the one with 7? 8 MPL. The difference is that Timberwolf is almost 40% faster, better hitboxes, higher mounts, clan weaponry which is almost 50% in range, damage and heat advantage and has jumpjets. Oh and better heat dissipation and able to survive ST destruction.

and as a bonus there are multiple builds you can do with a timberwolf, laser vomit, gauss laser meta, LRM etc I would say that comapring the BK to the timberwolf is a reasonable analogy of a high performance top of the line machine versus a badly banged up or developed junk

[MischiefSC]

Escef, on 23 September 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

It absolutely is. So stop trying to make it more complicated.

It is simple. The BK is bad and PGI has released only bad performing IS mechs for 2 years. The complication is people trying to say that's totally okay. I get that not everyone cares about winning/losing, etc. etc. That's cool. That doesn't mean winning/losing isn't important or fun for some people. This is akin to only releasing missile boats for 2 years. Every single mech. Can you appreciate where the lack of options that creates would be upsetting to people who want to play something other than missile boats?