54 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Recently had a match where the following happened:

1. Waited approximately 5 minutes to get a match.
2. Battle lasted about 7.5 minutes to get down to two 'mechs.
3. The last two 'mechs were out of ammo/had no weapons.
4. 7.5 minutes of Battlemech Lambada.

What are the chances of physical attacks being added to this game, up to and including knock downs?

Here's the video to go along with this:

[MeiSooHaityu]

Dimento Graven, on 13 October 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

Recently had a match where the following happened:

1. Waited approximately 5 minutes to get a match.
2. Battle lasted about 7.5 minutes to get down to two 'mechs.
3. The last two 'mechs were out of ammo/had no weapons.
4. 7.5 minutes of Battlemech Lambada.

What are the chances of physical attacks being added to this game, up to and including knock downs?

Here's the video to go along with this:

I'd say there is zero chance of physical attacks. It would have been nice, but this game has gone too far (3+ years) without even remotely looking at it or making provisions for it.

PGI could pleasantly prove me wrong, but I highly doubt it. I wouldn't look for it.

[Davers]

In the land of the Ammo-less, the Head Laser Mech is King.

[Davers]

If we did get physical attacks, they would not work as well as people would want. It would require creating a huge range of motions, and that would cause havoc on hit detection. Plus actual weapons, like swords and axes, would be so easily targetable that they would be blown off immediately.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Davers, on 13 October 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

If we did get physical attacks, they would not work as well as people would want. It would require creating a huge range of motions, and that would cause havoc on hit detection. Plus actual weapons, like swords and axes, would be so easily targetable that they would be blown off immediately.

Weapons would need their own hitboxes (separate from the arms). Still, could you imagine brawling with a mech, blowing it's arm off, picking up said arm, and beating the enemy mech with it? Awesome .

I agree about the hit detection. It is rough as is with current weapons. Add to that how bad the knock down rubber-banding used to be, and it would probably be a mess.

[Dimento Graven]

Davers, on 13 October 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

In the land of the Ammo-less, the Head Laser Mech is King.

If only one of the two remaining 'mechs had a weapon crit slot available for the head...

[Elizander]

Hit detection should be fine as long as they code the animations into HSR like they did with torso twisting. We can ignore weapons for now and get some mechs punching.

[Lugh]

Several things are needed for this:

Baseline punching damage for each chassis.

Actuators for arms.

Collisions not teleporting people all over the place (happens even now with collision damage disabled for the most part and knockdowns MIA)

Knockdowns need to happen.

DFA needs to happen.

It's just not Mechwarrior until someone gets beaten to death with their own arm.

Edited by Lugh, 13 October 2015 - 07:25 AM.

[Obelus]

They should structure physical attacks to be like very short range LBX with long recharge times, and long firing times. And only for mechs with hands.

[Dimento Graven]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 October 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

...

Add to that how bad the knock down rubber-banding used to be, and it would probably be a mess.

Y'know you say that and then I'm struck how so few 'rubber-banding' issues were actually observed in that 7.5 minutes of 'mechs intentionally ramming the **** out each other.

Hit detection worked semi-well enough for me to eventually rub one of his legs off, I can't understand how it couldn't work to detect that, do a speed/weight calc, and then, knock one of us over.

I don't think it's the rubber banding alone (which now that I'm thinking about it, is probably more of a factor with HIGH SPEED collisions, and hence more specific to lights and mediums, not low speed heavies and assaults) that's the issue. Yeah, it probably would be difficult to make happen, and yeah, 'mechs with weapons would likely have issues with those weapons being targeted, BUT, don't you think the effort would add something really cool to the game, and ultimately be worth the effort?!!?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 October 2015 - 07:28 AM.

[Davers]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 October 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Weapons would need their own hitboxes (separate from the arms). Still, could you imagine brawling with a mech, blowing it's arm off, picking up said arm, and beating the enemy mech with it? Awesome .

I agree about the hit detection. It is rough as is with current weapons. Add to that how bad the knock down rubber-banding used to be, and it would probably be a mess.

So taking melee weapons basically gives you a shield- so expect everyone to take them for the extra HP.

The big mechs who sacrifice firepower for melee weapons will not be able to trade with the enemy, and won't be able to close to melee range without taking a lot of damage. Instead of Axmans and Hatchetmans, it is more likely we will see lighter mechs running with around them.

Edited by Davers, 13 October 2015 - 07:28 AM.

[WonderSparks]

Ah, wouldn't it be nice?
Lots of work to put in there, though, I'd wager.
Though it would certainly give (healthy) 'Mechs a way to fight back in the event of "I HAVE NO WEAPONS!" *explosion^

I'd be all for it if it were a possibility.

[Davers]

Dimento Graven, on 13 October 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

If only one of the two remaining 'mechs had a weapon crit slot available for the head...

Well, not everybody can be king you know.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Dimento Graven, on 13 October 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

Y'know you say that and then I'm struck how so few 'rubber-banding' issues were actually observed in that 7.5 minutes of 'mechs intentionally ramming the **** out each other.

It wasn't too bad in that video surprisingly. However, I have experienced some wicked warping in MWO on collisions too.

Still, I was kind of more referring to the rubber-banding on knock down. If you remember, during the "getting up" animation a mech would warp back and forth quite a lot. It was really annoying. I'm not sure they could fix that and it was probably one of a few deciding factors in having it removed.

[Bilbo]

Dimento Graven, on 13 October 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

Y'know you say that and then I'm struck how so few 'rubber-banding' issues were actually observed in that 7.5 minutes of 'mechs intentionally ramming the **** out each other.

Hit detection worked semi-well enough for me to eventually rub one of his legs off, I can't understand how it couldn't work to detect that, do a speed/weight calc, and then, knock one of us over.

I don't think it's the rubber banding alone (which now that I'm thinking about it, is probably more of a factor with HIGH SPEED collisions, and hence more specific to lights and mediums, not low speed heavies and assaults) that's the issue. Yeah, it probably would be difficult to make happen, and yeah, 'mechs with weapons would likely have issues with those weapons being targeted, BUT, don't you think the effort would add something really cool to the game, and ultimately be worth the effort?!!?

You didn't see much rubberbanding because they removed the collision and knockdown code that caused it long ago.

[Night Thastus]

It'd be great!

We'll never get it though.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Davers, on 13 October 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

So taking melee weapons basically gives you a shield- so expect everyone to take them for the extra HP.

The big mechs who sacrifice firepower for melee weapons will not be able to trade with the enemy, and won't be able to close to melee range without taking a lot of damage. Instead of Axmans and Hatchetmans, it is more likely we will see lighter mechs running with around them.

Well, IMO, if your mech doesn't come with a weapon, you aren't equipping one. Besides, your mech has to have hands and the correct actuators to begin with.

Still, I could see making it part of the arm hitbox for balance, it would just be odd decision.

[Dimento Graven]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 October 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

It wasn't too bad in that video surprisingly. However, I have experienced some wicked warping in MWO on collisions too.

Still, I was kind of more referring to the rubber-banding on knock down. If you remember, during the "getting up" animation a mech would warp back and forth quite a lot. It was really annoying. I'm not sure they could fix that and it was probably one of a few deciding factors in having it removed.

No, pretty sure it was when a certain PGI employee got all butthurt when he was griefed by certain players back when collisions were possible.

Very shortly after the publication of THIS vid, collisions were peremptorily removed.


To me it felt very spiteful and was one of the first, "EFFF IT! WE'LL JUST REMOVE IT FROM THE GAME INSTEAD OF ACTUALLY FIXING IT!" moves made by PGI/IGP.

Bilbo, on 13 October 2015 - 07:32 AM, said:

You didn't see much rubberbanding because they removed the collision and knockdown code that caused it long ago.

Incorrect actually, you DO see rubber-banding, but it happens only when one of the 'mechs is moving at a high rate of speed, or if two 'mechs are occupying the same X,Y coordinates.

EDIT: Oh and when one 'mech has a really ****** ping...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 October 2015 - 07:39 AM.

[Jetfire]

Melee is viable if a bit challenging.

You setup the game with a simple melee button with a charge timer like the gauss rifle, while charging weapons are all disabled and when fired the effect is either a kick or punch for X ballistic damage with a range of say 10-15 meters which also does some damage to the mech performing the attack to whatever limb performed the attack. Mechs with a melee weapon would preferentially use the weapon limb if available.

Additionally you could use the same mechanic for DFA. This would limit accidental DFA from friendlies. Think of it like performing a drop kick.

Knockdown and collision damage would remain a separate issue.

[Davers]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 October 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

Well, IMO, if your mech doesn't come with a weapon, you aren't equipping one. Besides, your mech has to have hands and the correct actuators to begin with.

Still, I could see making it part of the arm hitbox for balance, it would just be odd decision.

Well, it's one of those weird TT things that weapons actually take up slots and weight for your mech, instead of being something that you could just hold (like trees or your enemy's limbs).

Having Melee hardpoints makes sense, but I would love to see an Awesome with an axe in it's offhand.