277 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

Grisbane, on 24 September 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

i call false, newbie farmers like me will do everything they can to keep our PSR as low as possible to keep the c-bills flowing.

Yes, but you and folks like you are, hopefully, an edge-case and nothing more.

Quote

[color=orange]Clarification 5: My low Tier means I'm a horrible player.[/color]
That really isn't the case. It's more along the lines of: you are not playing in a team based mind set. Remember, PSR calculations reward team play more than 'Rambo' or 'I'm the hero and will carry my team to victory' play styles. Being in Tier 4/5 means you can now adjust your game play to become more aware of what your team is doing as a whole and working together to get a victory. If you see your PSR progress bar move up, you will know you're getting better at this. Players in Tiers 3/2/1 all have the basics down and the higher the Tier, the more small/micro adjustments these players have made to maximize their ability to play as a team and adjust accordingly.

This is a load of crap, because I am a team player; I always try to stick with the main force of my team to provide support. The fact of this system is that it is based on wins, as well as things such as Kill Most Damage Done. I typically get between four and six of these per match; I haven't killed the 'Mech, someone else has, but I did the most damage, and I see it pop up on my awards lines all the time. So, if this were true, I would be a higher tier than I am. I know I've really not played enough since PSR went into effect to balance it all out, but if they were going off my present stats to assign my present Tier, then I need to apply more to play in order to get out of the present rut. I know I'm doing much better than I was when I started in July 2012, but that's no comfort, just now.

I think PSR has some tweaking to go, but as it stands, now, what Paul said is incorrect for anyone who is not a direct hitter. If you're providing information, whether targeting or just general positioning, or you work in indirect fire, you're not going to get into the higher tiers, unless you're already there.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

El Bandito, on 24 September 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

It stands to reason that a person who played 5000 matches have more skill than a newbie with few hundred matches under his belt. It took me 200 matches at least, to get away from 0.25 WLR back in 2012-2013. One does not magically become as good as Proton, or Heimdelight, by playing few hundred matches.

There are going to be players who after 5000 games (or any number of games) will not be at the same player skill level as other players, unfortunately with the PSR system, everything converges at tier 1.

You could literally have a player who plays nothing but stock Urbanmechs, using a steering wheel as a controller, and playing blindfolded, who will eventually reach tier 1, and play against the best players in the game.

That is the problem with this system.

[El Bandito]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 24 September 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

There are going to be players who after 5000 games (or any number of games) will not be at the same player skill level as other players, unfortunately with the PSR system, everything converges at tier 1.

You could literally have a player who plays nothing but stock Urbanmechs, using a steering wheel as a controller, and playing blindfolded, who will eventually reach tier 1, and play against the best players in the game.

That is the problem with this system.

You are over-exaggerating. Otherwise there wouldn't be player with thousands of matches under their belt who are still in T4 and T5. Yet there are! Plenty of posts from multi-thousand match vets talking about how low their tier is. Hell, Jo Mallan would have reached T1 by your logic.

Sure, not everyone who reaches T1 is gonna be Proton level, but they are sure as hell better than the majority of the lower tier players. That is true especially right now, at the start of the tier system.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 September 2015 - 06:21 PM.

[Death Proof]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 24 September 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

You could literally have a player who plays nothing but stock Urbanmechs, using a steering wheel as a controller, and playing blindfolded, who will eventually reach tier 1, and play against the best players in the game.

That is the problem with this system.

No. I know that was humorous analogy, but the fact is, bad players who continue to play bad and do not learn from their mistakes will probably never get past T5 no matter how many matches they play....unless they eventually learn from their mistakes and actually get better.

The real problem with this system is that it's just Elo, redressed as a player skill rating system.

Since it's meant as a means to place players in solo matches (mostly) it needs to not be so dependent on Win/Loss ratio. W/L should be a factor, but not the basis for determining PSR.

[Mister Blastman]

Kira Onime, on 24 September 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

"If we were to turn off new player registration/sign-up and just let the current player base play on forever, eventually everyone will bubble up to Tier 2 or Tier 1."

Hah! I knew it!

What a joke. This system is worse than Elo. There should never be a way for everyone to be Tier 1 or 2 at the same time. It should be a constantly evolving and adjusting metric to keep an even distribution from tier 1 to tier 5 (could be weightings in each category but there must always be a spread).

[Bloody]

the system is bullcrap like he is, think about it, you are a team player, say a dedicated Narc mech, you dont do much damage you end up with a low score, you either stay in your ranking or go down A LOT. So the system penalizes you for being a team player, case number 2 ,. you load up with your typical laser vomit , you spend the entire game just randomly shooting at any opposing mech, you do tons of damage but do not really focus your fire. You match score is amazing , you either go up lots or get a small increase. Again, you played without helping your team but still the system thinks you are a good player..

the whole thing is ********

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I know for certain that my PSR increased after a horrible match were finished with a match score of 111. I imagine the actual threshold is significantly lower than that.
100 match score is absolutely nothing, you can get that be hanging out with your lance all game (formation), or doing nothing but spamming the R button (spotting), and if you manage to scrape your lasers across another mech there is an assist.
As long as your team wins, you go up in rankings.

I suspect that players who have lower PSR right now may be playing in the group queue, where you can easily lose often enough to overcome the PSR advancement from wins. But in the solo queue, where win/loss is 50:50, you are going to climb at a steady rate.

[Mawai]

One of the problem I see with this system is the apparent assumption that playing a lot of games and winning more than losing means you are a good player.

Another one is the comment that tiers 1 to 3 have learned how to be team players and so their PSR is higher ... however, they have also, from what I have seen so far, played far more games and that seems to be a bigger factor since unless you tank a game there will be a bias towards rising PSR.

In addition, the talk about ceilings makes me wonder if there is a maximum PSR value that can be assigned and the best T1 players just bump into it ... with the system Paul described there will never be a plateau in PSR since the distribution has an upward bias from what Paul seemed to say.

Anyway, PGI usually fails at math, the entire PSR system is essentially a math problem, thus my guess is that the system implemented will actually fail or has already failed but since they keep the details secret the player base has no real way to know

[Piney II]

PGI made a HUGE mistake publishing the tier ranks. It started a sh*t storm that is totally uncalled for.

Bad move..........

[El Bandito]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 24 September 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

I suspect that players who have lower PSR right now may be playing in the group queue, where you can easily lose often enough to overcome the PSR advancement from wins. But in the solo queue, where win/loss is 50:50, you are going to climb at a steady rate.

People who lose often in group queue is balanced by people who are winning often in group queue, I suppose. I guess many group queue players do not deserve their tiers by that logic, be it low or high.

[Vlad Ward]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 24 September 2015 - 06:29 PM, said:

I know for certain that my PSR increased after a horrible match were finished with a match score of 111. I imagine the actual threshold is significantly lower than that.
100 match score is absolutely nothing, you can get that be hanging out with your lance all game (formation), or doing nothing but spamming the R button (spotting), and if you manage to scrape your lasers across another mech there is an assist.
As long as your team wins, you go up in rankings.

I suspect that players who have lower PSR right now may be playing in the group queue, where you can easily lose often enough to overcome the PSR advancement from wins. But in the solo queue, where win/loss is 50:50, you are going to climb at a steady rate.

I'd imagine the "extremely low score + win = no gain" condition is only there to prevent discos and afks from farming free PSR. Outside of this edge case pretty much any win will count as a plus.

[TyphonCh]

Huh. I don't know how I feel about that.

[50 50]

No, I think Paul explained that quite well and from what I have seen in the few games I have played since the patch, I can see that it is fairly balanced.

Firstly, you have to work your way into the next tier. It's not going to change with each game.
That means getting a certain level of consistency in your game to get enough match points, but then measured against difference scales depending on if your team won or lost.

Looking at the numbers, it is just as easy to lose your rating as it is to gain it.
Here is what I have found.

VICTORY
Get a match score of at least 100pts to get an increase. The increase here may not be much and I expect a player with a higher score would get a more significant increase.
Scored under 100pts in a victory and there is no change. So if your team carried you through the battle, you will not be punished for a poor game, but neither will you be rewarded.

DEFEAT
You need a match score of 300pts or more to not have your PSR affected.
Edit: it appears you need a match scored of 500+ to increase your PSR while on the losing side. (Thanks Be Rough With Me)
If you get a match scored under 300pts, your PSR will drop. Once again, the amount of change looks to be a bit of a sliding scale and may vary.

It seems to me that this is fairly balanced and a decent system where we will see players who regularly score 300pts or more a match move themselves into a higher tier where they will face similarly skilled opponents thus making it more difficult to maintain or raise their PSR.

In addition, with the testing for new mech quirks that was started, expect to see a change in the way points are rewarded so as to better identify and recognise the efforts of players taking on a different role.
That is why a team that performs well together will likely win and most likely have decent enough scores to advance their PSR.

This system has only been in place now for 2 days. It will take a little while for the segregation of players to occur and then we will get a clearer picture of how it is going.

Edited by 50 50, 24 September 2015 - 07:42 PM.

[Goose]

I read one line about "team play," then a whole mess of individual damage examples …

[Throat Punch]

50 50, on 24 September 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

This system has only been in place now for 2 days. It will take a little while for the segregation of players to occur and then we will get a clearer picture of how it is going.

PSR being viewable by players has only been in place for 3 days. The PSR system has been in place for a couple weeks now.

[Tesunie]

Basing any kind of "skill" ranking system on "wins" in a "team" game, where you have 23 other players who determine your win/lose fates... Is not a good idea.

Should just be based on Match score. And, seen as a win adds to that score, winning would make it easier to go up. But losing shouldn't make it nearly impossible either. Otherwise... why did we actually drop Elo? This new systems isn't a "Player Skill Rating", it sounds more like an "Elo reskin".

(Edit: Had half a sentence in there...)

Edited by Tesunie, 24 September 2015 - 07:00 PM.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I think many players were hoping that PSR were rankings, and whether or not you PSR increase or decreased was related to how well you personally did in the match, compared to how well you normally perform (averages). With a mitigating factor of PSR of opponents you were facing. I'm not entirely sure win/loss even plays into the equation, especially since there are several game modes that can be won without demonstrating any skill.

[Threat Doc]

For the love of mike, I wish PGI would just listen.

[Kaptain]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 24 September 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

This.

It should be:



Not as it is:

Random Stranger > Paul.

Even when I make a bad move and end up smack dab in the middle of the team to be focus fired my "experience meter" goes up(t2). I have never seen it remain the same and only saw it fall once when I was AFK and did zero damage. UGH pgi, ugh.

[Tastian]

Mister Blastman, on 24 September 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

Hah! I knew it!

What a joke. This system is worse than Elo. There should never be a way for everyone to be Tier 1 or 2 at the same time. It should be a constantly evolving and adjusting metric to keep an even distribution from tier 1 to tier 5 (could be weightings in each category but there must always be a spread).

This is EXACTLY my thoughts. In school, it is entirely possible for everyone to get A's. (That's why some colleges force a bell curve). Tiers in MWO should be evenly distributed; such that if you have a low borderline Tier 2 for example and just stop playing you could get pushed down to a Tier 3 if enough people get higher scores then you. Each tier should be an equal sized-evolving bucket.

If everyone was Tier 1 and 2 and Tiers are able to match with +/- 1 Tier, then we effectively have nothing.