56 replies to this topic

[Yellonet]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

I feel like the issue stems from people waiting to be shot before trying to twist away or move to spread damage. You have to think ahead (THINKING MANS SHOOTER, RIGHT HERE), and expect that when you are outside of cover trying to scan for enemy targets, you are probably going to get hit hard with something. If you see someone looking at you in the corner of your screen and then try to aim and get your shots off, you lose that trade. If you THINK "Okay, I will lose this trade because he already sees me and is lining up his weapons. He will probably get his full laser vomit burn on me as I just begin to fire my own lasers, and he will spread my alpha across his chest and arm" and then immediately twist away and move to get behind cover, you are going to get tickled but will probably get away more or less unscathed, and then you search for a spot that will allow you to get the drop on them, as opposed to the other way around.

For me, this is one of those things I forget to do when I get extremely tired, and I will immediately notice that I am getting gored through the CT a lot faster. That's how I know when it is either time for more coffee or time to go to bed.

That's all true, but lasers are still the meta weapon of choice for most players, and that is because over all, lasers are the best weapons.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yellonet, on 25 September 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Yes, very wierd, I wonder why....

Because MASC and JJs and 95 tonner armor make it very difficult to kill.

And yes it uses Clan lasers, but DJPush said that removing quirks would balance laser vomit, and this is a direct counter-example of how that wouldn't work

Regarding lasers, the reason everyone uses them is because energy hardpoints are easily the most common hardpoints in the game, PPCs have been nerfed pretty hard and offer a pretty bad damage per heat ratio, especially when you can only fire two before incurring ghost heat, SRMs spread too much damage, LB 10X spread too much damage, ballistics have been nerfed (with the exception of the Gauss) or were never good (AC10), LRMs (ew) are indirect fire lock on weapons that are hit or miss as far as effectiveness goes depending on how good the enemy team is and aren't very rewarding to use (subjective), and Clan UACs.. well they have actually made a little bit of a come back and can be dangerous... but not quite to the level of lasers/gauss. I actually think cUACs need to lose some of their heat personally...

[MechB Kotare]

Jediwarrior online

CERLL with 3s long beam duration.

I like that idea pretty much actually...

Not.

If you want to decrease insanely high 'Laser vomit' Alphas, you need to reduce damage (and duration) of cERML, cLPL and cERLL.

Also adjusting and messing a little with specific mech's cooling efficiency and heat mngmnt capabilities would hurt either.

[Gas Guzzler]

As far as TTK goes, I have been reading "The Hunters" and I gotta say, they decide willy nilly how long it takes to destroy mechs. Its almost like a lot of mechs suffer from debilitating damage in as little as one or two shots sometimes, or it consists of a laser vomit Executioner taking on a gauss vomit Dire Wolf (this is "Grave Covenant" now) where they basically just stand there and fire every weapon that is in range at each other, and then watch the other pilot "struggle to keep his mech from falling over", then return fire, and it goes back and forth until the Dire Wolf falls, tries to get up, and then gets iced by another laser vomit alpha from the Executioner.

Phelan Kell, such a tryhard abusing MWO game mechanics with OP Clan laser vomit.

Phelan's Mech : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...94f2d435e40208c

Smoke Jag Dire: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e8d3fe73928c161

Anyone who says they don't alpha in the books is straight up wrong.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 September 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

Not lasers are the problem. Sure, they offer too much pros and hardly any cons. However, the huge alphas with laser weapons are the real problem.

The heatscale should have some earlier restrictions caused by excessive heat like in the tabletop

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 01:49 PM, said:

Regarding lasers, the reason everyone uses them is because energy hardpoints are easily the most common hardpoints in the game

Yes, that is one reason. However, look at he pros of lasers...

• hitscan weapon, velocity can be ignored. This is such a big bonus. Who tries to shoot a fast moving target on med or long range with a ppc or ac know what I mean
  
• (portion at least) instant damage
  
• no ammo dependency
  
• low weight

They would be meta weapons anyway even if velocity weapons were buffed

Edited by Bush Hopper, 25 September 2015 - 02:30 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bush Hopper, on 25 September 2015 - 02:08 PM, said:

Not lasers are the problem. Sure, they offer too much pros and hardly any cons. However, the huge alphas with laser weapons are the real problem.

The heatscale should have some earlier restrictions caused by excessive heat like in the tabletop

According to the lore, you could alpha 3 cLPLs and 4 cER MLs in an Executioner without any damage to your mech. You can do that in MWO maybe once, but then you need to cool down. *shrugs*

I have never advocated using lore to influence MWO or saying that MWO should be a certain way because of lore, but now I find it hilarious how everyone says "In the books they almost never alpha'd" or "TTK is way too short compared to lore!" when those statements are just so wrong, that I am actually finding instances in lore where TTK is shorter than a typical engagement in MWO, and people alpha frequently, with the consequence being "he could feel the heat spike in his cockpit", or maybe something bad happens, depending on what the author wants!

[Weeny Machine]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

According to the lore, you could alpha 3 cLPLs and 4 cER MLs in an Executioner without any damage to your mech. You can do that in MWO maybe once, but then you need to cool down. *shrugs*

I have never advocated using lore to influence MWO or saying that MWO should be a certain way because of lore, but now I find it hilarious how everyone says "In the books they almost never alpha'd" or "TTK is way too short compared to lore!" when those statements are just so wrong, that I am actually finding instances in lore where TTK is shorter than a typical engagement in MWO, and people alpha frequently, with the consequence being "he could feel the heat spike in his cockpit", or maybe something bad happens, depending on what the author wants!

Sure. However, the TT turns equal 10 seconds.

[Ultimax]

Yellonet, on 25 September 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

Sorry, I didn't see the reasons why the idea was bad...


Why do you think people are using only lasers on mechs that can have ballistics?

I've already explained it to you once, and alluded to it in my first post.

If you're unable to understand that, that's your problem.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bush Hopper, on 25 September 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

Sure. However, the TT turns equal 10 seconds.

Its also a board game based on dice rolling. HBS has a kickstarter for you coming next week if that is the game you want to play.

[Weeny Machine]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 02:39 PM, said:

Its also a board game based on dice rolling. HBS has a kickstarter for you coming next week if that is the game you want to play.

Nope, you cannot argue with one thing and totally ignore others just because it is convenient for you. The novels were *surprise, surprise* TT oriented. There you can fire those alphas repeatedly because of the 10 sec rule.

Speaking of novels...there are enough novels were pilots hammered the veto button trying to prevent a shutdown (look up the TT heat table and you know what that means) or it was mentioned that the mech reacted sluggish because of the heat (again look at the heat table).

In MWO you can fire (depending on positioning) 2-3 alphas in the time you can fire 1 in the TT (or roughly in the novels).

Oh, but I forget, you tell me to play another game, yet you obviously like the chain spamming. Maybe you should follow your own advice and play a shooter not a tactical shooter?

Edited by Bush Hopper, 25 September 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[Damocles]

Nope.

But a large increase to mech agility via accel/decel/turn rate boosts would allow for much more damage spread and missed/dodged shots.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bush Hopper, on 25 September 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Nope, you cannot argue with one thing and totally ignore others just because it is convenient for you. The novels were *surprise, surprise* TT oriented. There you can fire those alphas repeatedly because of the 10 sec rule.

Speaking of novels...there are enough novels were pilots hammered the veto button trying to prevent a shutdown (look up the TT heat table and you know what that means) or it was mentioned that the mech reacted sluggish because of the heat (again look at the heat table).

In MWO you can fire (depending on positioning) 2-3 alphas in the time you can fire 1 in the TT (or roughly in the novels).

Oh, but I forget, you tell me to play another game, yet you obviously like the chain spamming. Maybe you should follow your own advice and play a shooter not a tactical shooter?

Who said I like chain spamming? I can reliably get two alphas off typically before having to stagger shots.

And honestly like I said, I don't think this game should have to strictly follow the mechanics of TT/books. They aren't first person real time video games!

Who says a tactical shooter needs longer TTK then we have? I just looked up the definition of tactical shooter:

A tactical shooter is a subgenre of shooter game that includes both first-person shooters and third-person shooters. These games simulate realistic combat, thus making tactics and caution more important than quick reflexes in other action games. Tactical shooters involving military combat are sometimes known as "soldier sims"

The game we have now meets that definition. No matter how fast your reflexes are, your laser vomit Timber Wolf is not going to instagib anyone. Knowing when and where to shoot/go is more important than having lightning fast reflexes, cautious play is prevalent all the time. Go to the tactical shooter wikipedia page. Sure as hell seems like this is a tactical shooter to me. Just because SOME people die quickly doesn't mean that it isn't a tactical shooter...

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 September 2015 - 03:06 PM.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Who said I like chain spamming? I can reliably get two alphas off typically before having to stagger shots.

And honestly like I said, I don't think this game should have to strictly follow the mechanics of TT/books. They aren't first person real time video games!

Who says a tactical shooter needs longer TTK then we have? I just looked up the definition of tactical shooter:

[color=#252525]A [/color]tactical shooter[color=#252525] is a [/color]subgenre[color=#252525] of [/color]shooter game[color=#252525] that includes both [/color]first-person shooters[color=#252525] and [/color]third-person shooters[color=#252525]. These games simulate realistic combat, thus making tactics and caution more important than quick reflexes in other [/color]action games[color=#252525]. Tactical shooters involving military combat are sometimes known as "soldier sims".[/color]

[color=#252525]The game we have now meets that definition. No matter how fast your reflexes are, your laser vomit Timber Wolf is not going to instagib anyone. Knowing when and where to shoot/go is more important than having lightning fast reflexes, cautious play is prevalent all the time. Go to the tactical shooter wikipedia page. Sure as hell seems like this is a tactical shooter to me. Just because SOME people die quickly doesn't mean that it isn't a tactical shooter...[/color]

Use "paste as plain text" to avoid having to cut out of all the [/color] and other random code tags.

Also, you invalidated the "Thinking Man's Game OMFGWTFBBQ" argument.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 25 September 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

I don't think some people experienced the brief "CERLL @ 2.0s duration" era where our favorite Paulconomist was exiled temporarily from balance (into CW... oh boy).

Even today, not that many people run CERLL builds unless in specialized cases, while Clan LPL is the the preferred long range weapon of choice (assuming you're not already splurging on CERMEDs).

So.. I'd suggest you'd really think your opinions though, as doubled longer durations will instantly kill this game and produce a Paulocaust level of whinage that well... speaks for itself.

Yup.


Long burn duration lasers aren't fun to use. That's the key. That's why, ultimately, this idea is horrible.

Nerf lasers if you must, but not burn times. We've been there, we can go there now on a Timbie and see how it'll be.

Making a whole class of weapons horrible to use is not the way to go.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

As far as TTK goes, I have been reading "The Hunters" and I gotta say, they decide willy nilly how long it takes to destroy mechs. Its almost like a lot of mechs suffer from debilitating damage in as little as one or two shots sometimes, or it consists of a laser vomit Executioner taking on a gauss vomit Dire Wolf (this is "Grave Covenant" now) where they basically just stand there and fire every weapon that is in range at each other, and then watch the other pilot "struggle to keep his mech from falling over", then return fire, and it goes back and forth until the Dire Wolf falls, tries to get up, and then gets iced by another laser vomit alpha from the Executioner.

Phelan Kell, such a tryhard abusing MWO game mechanics with OP Clan laser vomit.

Phelan's Mech : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...94f2d435e40208c

Smoke Jag Dire: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e8d3fe73928c161

Anyone who says they don't alpha in the books is straight up wrong.

The part I like about those builds you posted, is that if we didn't have ghost heat - those builds could actually be functional and decent in this game.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Well if PPC's wherent so stupidly hot and slow moving....I'd use them more....

if autocannons had better velocity and didnt consntatly clip into the walls and ground right in front of the mech I was shooting at...I'd use them more...

If both where cooler running....see where im going with this?

At one point autocannons where the go to weapon. They got nerfed. Now they are only used on mechs with massive quirks, or boated heavily IS side.

PPCS where then the go to weapon. They got nerfed, and now are rarely used except for again, mechs that have massive quirks for them. AKA the Awesome....which itself is too poor a mech so is rarely seen. and the odd ECM poptart.

and now you bring lasers to the chopping block...do you see the pattern developing here? Its not that lasers are overpowered, its because you keep murdering the alternatives. Buff the alternatives and you get more diversity.

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2015 - 03:22 PM, said:

The part I like about those builds you posted, is that if we didn't have ghost heat - those builds could actually be functional and decent in this game.

And real 2.0 heatsinks...Especially that Dire, I'd love to run that.

[Nightmare1]

A much better way to balance lasers with other weapons would be to remove Ghost Heat from all non-laser weapons. PGI should also introduce reactive and reflective armor like what we had in MW4. Reflective would reduce energy damage by 1/2, while doubling ballistic damage. Reactive would reduce ballistic damage by 1/2 while doubling energy damage. Missiles would gain a 1.5 damage multiplier against both types of armor.

Pretty soon, the low-heat, non-energy weapons couple with reflective armor would shift the paradigm. We'd see a much more diverse array of builds as a result.