223 replies to this topic

[TyphonCh]

I heat scale in this game never really bothered me until I hit T2, now almost T1. All people do is cram all the firepower they can to get around ghost heat, then proceed to alpha lasers, peek a boo, cool off, alpha lasers repeat. It gets really boring... primarily because it's easy to use. But that's the meta. So whatever. I'm all in favor of a proper heat penalty system and convergence.

[Red Shrike]

Sader325, on 28 January 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

So what you're saying is you find it surprising that more people don't play badly on purpose?

Sarcasm. The surprise part was sarcasm.

Sader325, on 28 January 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

So what you're saying is you find it surprising that more people don't play badly on purpose?

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

What kind of person plays a game badly on purpose?

I play "badly" on purpose. So what you're saying is that any setup that isn't exploiting something is a bad setup? Boy, a perfectly balanced game must be a nightmare for you then.

And when is a balanced and adaptive setup bad?

[GrimRiver]

I'd vote for this but I would bump that up to 50 from 30 for more wiggle room, bump shutdown chance up at 30, remove slowdown and replace it with accel/decel% decrease and reduce % chance of ammo explosion.

[Sader325]

Red Shrike, on 28 January 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Sarcasm. The surprise part was sarcasm.


I play "badly" on purpose. So what you're saying is that any setup that isn't exploiting something is a bad setup? Boy, a perfectly balanced game must be a nightmare for you then.

And when is a balanced and adaptive setup bad?

How is avoiding a penalty by using something that isn't penalized an exploit?

You want something that penalizes people for generating heat. Fine, you can have it.

I'll use a weapon that doesn't generate heat.

Why does it bother you that I'm playing within the game mechanics?

Edited by Sader325, 28 January 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[Red Shrike]

It's like using noobtubes in Modern Warfare (any number).

I find it strange when my Shadowhawk joke loadout does almost triple the damage of my (largely) stock Warhammer loadout. Provided I can stay alive.

[no one]

Welp, I got completely ignored.

[Sader325]

Red Shrike, on 28 January 2016 - 10:47 AM, said:

It's like using noobtubes in Modern Warfare (any number).

I find it strange when my Shadowhawk joke loadout does almost triple the damage of my (largely) stock Warhammer loadout. Provided I can stay alive.

How is it the "noobtube" in Modern Warfare?

You've made every single weapon in the game ineffective and useless except the non heat ones, not to mention making flamers OP to the point of ridiculousness with people able to blow up peoples ammo at will.

Then you find it surprising that instead of remaining ineffective and useless. People use something else.

You see the noobtube in Modernwarfare gave a free kill or two, but your rifle was never seen as less effective than it. It was a secondary weapon, never a full on primary.

Making Dakka the only viable weapon and then poo pooing people who use it is not the same thing at all, and for you to believe you're on some sort of moral high ground because we choose not to kill ourselves with your dumb heat system is...in a word: Stupid.

Edited by Sader325, 28 January 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Team Chevy86, on 28 January 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

I heat scale in this game never really bothered me until I hit T2, now almost T1. All people do is cram all the firepower they can to get around ghost heat, then proceed to alpha lasers, peek a boo, cool off, alpha lasers repeat. It gets really boring... primarily because it's easy to use. But that's the meta. So whatever. I'm all in favor of a proper heat penalty system and convergence.

And any Heat Scale the hurts Mechs when they do their thing will just promote Poke and Peek even more. Why would anyone RUN from place to place while firing weapons if their is even a slight chance you might not reach your destination alive due to "heat issues"? Best to really stay put, Poke and Cool, Poke and Cool to make damn sure...

Introducing the new Meta Game, within the Game, and we call it "Poke and Peek to avoid the Heat!"

[Red Shrike]

Sader325, on 28 January 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

How is it the "noobtube" in Modern Warfare?

You've made every single weapon in the game ineffective and useless except the non heat ones, not to mention making flamers OP to the point of ridiculousness with people able to blow up peoples ammo at will.

Then you find it surprising that instead of remaining ineffective and useless. People use something else.

You see the noobtube in Modernwarfare gave a free kill or two, but your rifle was never seen as less effective than it. It was a secondary weapon, never a full on primary.

Making Dakka the only viable weapon and then poo pooing people who use it is not the same thing at all, and for you to believe you're on some sort of moral high ground because we choose not to kill ourselves with your dumb heat system is...in a word: Stupid.

Dakka shouldn't be the only viable weapon type. Mixed loadout (lasers + ballistic + missiles) should be the most viable option imo. (without boating any of the three)

Edited by Red Shrike, 28 January 2016 - 11:31 AM.

[1Grimbane]

how come anything that is easy to use means all of a sudden it's a "noob" weapon or device... i get it low skilled players choose easy to learn with but my god. "oh it's easy to use so as a skilled player it's beneath me"... good grief i hope you fall out of your ivory tower

[wanderer]

Poke and peek (with massive laser alphas) IS the meta. And avoiding the heat because yes, that's what you do after your Death Star impression. Hide and cool down.

And the current heat system gives lasers no real drawbacks, since you can generate a huge chunk of "kill target" in 2-3 shots with perfect, pinpoint, snapshot accuracy.

Heat is what restricts energy weapons most. You either put something in that makes it meaningful, or lasers are the auto-go-to pretty much from now till forever. Anyone who doesn't think that matters, go look at PPCs.

[Cementi]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 January 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

You do realize Gauss does not explode due to heat, ammo explosions mean just that, ammo. Gauss ammo does not cook, and the weapon only explodes when destroyed (in this game at least).

Though it is really funny people think ammo explosions are some balancing mechanism.

FupDup, on 28 January 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

>Most ammo-based weapons are outclassed at the moment
>Let's make ammo-based weapons weaker
>Lulz

To Quicksilver Kalasa:

Ah your right I forgot that gauss does not explode due to heat.

Ammo explosions are a balancing mechanism though. Regardless of MWO or TT everything about the game(s) revolves around heat. It is the great limiter. Ballistics use very little heat and would be far superior in a situation where heat was an actual threat. The thing about table top though is heat is an issue so ballistics are very good. The downside is paying to rearm and sometimes when in the field your options to rearm are limited. MWO has that to some degree because of the fire rate so to combat it people cram as much ammo as they can into their mech because the risk for doing so is remote.

To FupDup:

There is always one person that ignores 99% of a post and latches on to the one thing they do not like.

A heat scale revamp will hit energy weapons very hard. Which is needed but it will likely go to far and then we will be back to ballistics being king (honestly I do not see them as being that bad right now but then I play a more heat management playstyle not alpha warrior).

You also completely overlook the fact that ammo explosions as part of the heat scale would also affect LRM SSRM and SRM users. Short post but everything about it says that you are heavily biased toward ballistics so anything less than them being king will be substandard.

The two biggest issues with MWO right now are pinpoint alphas and boating weapon systems. Ghost heat has proven to be an abysmal failure for discouraging these so why not investigate an actual heat scale with penalties. That way people have to use mutli range engagement builds with varied weapon systems and limit their ammo as those weapons have an element of risk.

Maybe even put some interesting objectives in matches. Capture points that once under your control like in conquest would also slowly reload your ammo. Then maybe people would not feel compelled to fill every available slot with ammo.

Ballistics heavy builds might even be able to save cbills and space by not using double heat sinks.

Mechs running less than a 250 standard would not get the short end of the stick anymore.

Try to be objective. I personally like my lasers. I have liked my lasers long before they became meta. What I propose will hurt lasers far far FAR more than it will hurt ballistics.

Edited by Cementi, 28 January 2016 - 10:22 PM.

[TyphonCh]

Red Shrike, on 28 January 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

Dakka shouldn't be the only viable weapon type. Mixed loadout (lasers + ballistic + missiles) should be the most viable option imo. (without boating any of the three)

Because in every other mechwarrior universe we had tanks, infantry, helicopters, etc to make use of those mixed loadouts. Not the case in MWO. We use the fastest way to down an enemy mech as possible. Unfortunately, using cheese builds and boating weapons en masse whilst avoiding ghost heat to your preferred range usually trumps any mixed load out.

Edited by Team Chevy86, 29 January 2016 - 01:00 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Heat is what restricts energy weapons most.

Lasers are only a problem because of convergence. Theyre not a problem because of the heatscale.

Punishing the heatscale for a problem caused by convergence is in the same bad taste as ghost heat. its a hello kitty bandaid slapped over a wound thats festering beneath the skin.

How bout we just fix the real problem instead? There have been countless ideas put forth by the community for how to combat convergence. And half of them arnt completely terrible.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2016 - 11:03 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Khobai, on 28 January 2016 - 10:54 PM, said:

Lasers are only a problem because of convergence. Theyre not a problem because of the heatscale.

Are two lasers hitting the same location at the same time a serious problem? No
Are two AC5s hitting the same location at the same time a serious problem? No

The problem is sustainable/repeatable alphas, granted I don't think we are too far off the sweet spot, but we do need lower heat caps so I can't pull off two straight alphas of 3 LPL/5 ML in a BK or similar in a Timmy (2 LPL/6 ERML).

[Sigilum Sanctum]

FupDup, on 28 January 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

>Most ammo-based weapons are outclassed at the moment
>Let's make ammo-based weapons weaker
>Lulz

This is why I advocate a heat scale without ammo explosions. Should a form of punishment exist? Sure. Not arbitrary random death determined by RNGesus though.

*ducks and waits for lore nerds*

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 29 January 2016 - 12:02 AM.

[adamts01]

Cementi, on 28 January 2016 - 10:14 PM, said:

The two biggest issues with MWO right now are pinpoint alphas and boating weapon systems. Ghost heat has proven to be an abysmal failure for discouraging these so why not investigate an actual heat scale with penalties.

I agree we need a lower heat cap, but you can't say ghost heat didn't make things better than they were. For a band-aid, I think it did pretty well.

[kapusta11]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 January 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

Are two lasers hitting the same location at the same time a serious problem? No
Are two AC5s hitting the same location at the same time a serious problem? No

The problem is sustainable/repeatable alphas, granted I don't think we are too far off the sweet spot, but we do need lower heat caps so I can't pull off two straight alphas of 3 LPL/5 ML in a BK or similar in a Timmy (2 LPL/6 ERML).

You don't get it. Heat is not a problem. In TT BK with 3 LPLs and 5 ML could fire all its weapons EVERY turn with no penalties applied whatsoever, in MWO terms it's as soon as recycle times allow you to fire again. The difference is that you would never hit single component with all of them.

There are only two things you can do to balance this out:
- Add cone of fire or some weird convergence system
- Split alphas in two separate shots and allow player accuracy to "spread" damage which is better solution because it allows you to keep pinpoint accuracy.

PGI went for the latter. Ghost Heat, weapon projectile desync and a limit on how many Gauss rifles you can charge at the same time are a form of that solution. The problem with Ghost Heat however is that it works only with one weapon type at a time meaning that balancing mixed weapon loadouts is a problem and uses weapon quantity as a main variable instead of weapon quality i.e. raw combined alpha damage modified by weapon mechanic and, to some extent, weapon range.

Why GH is not used to balance laser vomit, like putting medium and large lasers in the same penalty group? Probably because PGI are afraid angry players who have misconceptions about what GH is.

Edited by kapusta11, 29 January 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[Greyhart]

couldn't they just code ghost heat that it kicks in on any weapons firing that would cause over X damage rather than on the combination of weapons.

(I don't like the idea)

[Cementi]

adamts01, on 29 January 2016 - 12:31 AM, said:

I agree we need a lower heat cap, but you can't say ghost heat didn't make things better than they were. For a band-aid, I think it did pretty well.

No I do think it was better but I still think it is a failure at least as a long term solution it has. Mix your weapons right and you can get Atlas's and Dire Wolves that have 90+ alphas and can even do it twice in less than 10 seconds without shutting down. Sure some of that is splash but in a close range brawl your still hitting with 70 or more damage direct to a CT with a single volley.

Now before someone points it out you can still do that in TT. The difference in TT though is you have to deal with penalties when you do so.

I and others may want a complete revamp of the heat scale. However though none of us have said it I think I should mention that I (and I would like to think others) want the changes to be incremental. Primarly to lessen the knee jerk freak out sessions, no matter what you will get them but if the changes are gradual they will be less. Second MWO is a different beast than TT and it will not translate directly. Maybe we only have to go halfway with implementing the following (or similar ideas) or maybe we need them all.

Start testing with the current heat scale but put in speed reductions at 17%, 30%, 50%, 66% and 83%. Those are approximately where the move penalties are in TT. Make them reduce your speed by 10% per category so that at 83% you would have your speed cut by 50%. Who knows this alone may be enough and you will not have to go further.

Next I would test the aim penalties as a factor of your torso twist and arm speed. These kick in at 27%, 43%, 57%, and 80%. I know people want convergence but frankly I think that is a dead horse. Also for players who do not know BT it would probally just piss them off when they took a shot and their weapons did not hit where they were aiming. Recoil could be added in if these changes made ballistics to strong but I do not think it would.

Now for ammo explosions. With the current way heat works they simply wouldnt work. However what if the ammo that cooked off was simply lost instead of doing damage. These do not kick in till quite high, 63%, 77%, and 93% and then only a chance for them to cook off. Even if they do you would only loose a ton of ammo instead of taking damage.from it blowing. Later on that could be changed if nessesary but just losing ammos might suffice.

Shutdowns have a chance to happen at 47%, 60%, 73%, and 87%. Forced shutdown at 100% like we have right now. However it is not supposed to damage you as it does now. Only damage you take from heat is ammo explosions. Now having random shutdowns would not be popular so this one I think would likely have to be skipped or something else come up. Maybe a chance for your controls to lock for 1 second or something. Honestly I have no real ideas for this one.