223 replies to this topic

[Sader325]

So basically, the triple UAC 5 ebon jag that generates basically no heat and puts out an insane amount of DPS would become the new meta.

Ok.



http://www.twitch.tv...r325/v/29678921

Edited by Sader325, 28 January 2016 - 08:19 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

So basically, the triple UAC 5 ebon jag that generates basically no heat and puts out an insane amount of DPS would become the new meta.

Ok.

Exactly. This guy gets it.

Either triple UAC5 or dual gauss/laser. But ballistics will reign supreme.

"but we can mitigate ballistics by reducing their ammo to almost nothing"

Ok great so now no one uses ballistics because theres no point if you cant bring enough ammo. Everyone is back to using lasers, but you can only fire 3 lasers at a time. Youve turned the game into hello kitty laser tag. How is that fun? use common sense people, does that sound fun to you? that sounds ******* awful to me.

Quote

You mitigate ballistic builds by lowering overall ammo counts and increasing reload times.

It's not exactly rocket science to figure out how to mitigate it.

That mitigates nothing. If the only way left in the game to do 50+ pinpoint alphas is to use dual gauss/lasers then people are going to use dual gauss/lasers.

The same thing will happen with heatscale penalties that happened with ghost heat. New meta builds will crop up that are designed specifically to circumvent the system.

Which is exactly what dual gauss/laser does. Im still doing 50+ alpha strikes for 20 heat. Youve solved nothing.

The only recourse is going to be nerf gauss (and probably other low heat ballistics) to the point where its worthless. And when you start having to nerf weapons into obsoletion to make the system work, its no better than the current system we have now.

This is an absolutely TERRIBLE direction to take the game because it completely fails to address the real problem of convergence. The problem isnt the heat system. The problem is being able to fire all your weapons into the same location.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[Sader325]

BTW as to ammo cook off.

So my 2 LPL 4 ML TBR carries 2 SRM launchers with 1 ton of ammuntion. Which makes it slightly less meta than standard 2 lpl 4/3 ML TBR's.

With your change the risk of carrying SRM ammo is completly not worth it now, so I simply remove my SRM launchers.

So my build that was mostly meta but not, now becomes completly meta to avoid ammo cook off.

There goes build diversity.

[pbiggz]

Khobai, on 28 January 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

Exactly. This guy gets it.

Either triple UAC5 or dual gauss/laser. But ballistics will reign supreme.

"but we can mitigate ballistics by reducing their ammo to almost nothing"

Ok great so now no one uses ballistics because theres no point if you cant bring enough ammo. Everyone is back to using lasers, but you can only fire 3 lasers at a time. Youve turned the game into hello kitty laser tag. How is that fun? use common sense people, does that sound fun to you? that sounds ******* awful to me.



That mitigates nothing. If the only way left in the game to do 50+ pinpoint alphas is to use dual gauss/lasers then people are going to use dual gauss/lasers.

The same thing will happen with heatscale penalties that happened with ghost heat. New meta builds will crop up that are designed specifically to circumvent the system.

Which is exactly what dual gauss/laser does. Im still doing 50+ alpha strikes for 20 heat. Youve solved nothing.

The only recourse is going to be nerf gauss (and probably other low heat ballistics) to the point where its worthless. And when you start having to nerf weapons into obsoletion to make the system work, its no better than the current system we have now.

This is an absolutely TERRIBLE direction to take the game because it completely fails to address the real problem of convergence. The problem isnt the heat system. The problem is being able to fire all your weapons into the same location.

What if I told you, the problem was both.

[Red Shrike]

Sader325, on 28 January 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

Aaaand 3:22 is why I hate UAC.

[Lugh]

TexAce, on 25 September 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

I find it a bit harsh, I don't think anything should happen to the mech if you have the heat bar 50-60% full. But otherwise I'm all for severe heat consequences.

Reduce ammo per ton to compensate for everyone going ballistic as a result. SRMs and LRMs are crappy enough, leave them as they are.

That's just it with this heat scale you could remove ghost heat. Make True Dubs True Dubs and SMART pilots could run heat neutral.

But That's none of

[Red Shrike]

It seems its people's insistance on getting as much DPS as possible for the least amount of effort possible that's breaking the game. What a surprise.

[Barantor]

Khobai, on 28 January 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

Exactly. This guy gets it.

Either triple UAC5 or dual gauss/laser. But ballistics will reign supreme.

"but we can mitigate ballistics by reducing their ammo to almost nothing"

Ok great so now no one uses ballistics because theres no point if you cant bring enough ammo. Everyone is back to using lasers, but you can only fire 3 lasers at a time. Youve turned the game into hello kitty laser tag. How is that fun? use common sense people, does that sound fun to you? that sounds ******* awful to me.



That mitigates nothing. If the only way left in the game to do 50+ pinpoint alphas is to use dual gauss/lasers then people are going to use dual gauss/lasers.

The same thing will happen with heatscale penalties that happened with ghost heat. New meta builds will crop up that are designed specifically to circumvent the system.

Which is exactly what dual gauss/laser does. Im still doing 50+ alpha strikes for 20 heat. Youve solved nothing.

The only recourse is going to be nerf gauss (and probably other low heat ballistics) to the point where its worthless. And when you start having to nerf weapons into obsoletion to make the system work, its no better than the current system we have now.

This is an absolutely TERRIBLE direction to take the game because it completely fails to address the real problem of convergence. The problem isnt the heat system. The problem is being able to fire all your weapons into the same location.

Part of the problem with the convergence (which evidently they can't/won't fix) is the amount of weapons you can fire at once. When we have 50+ alpha strikes going downrange with the mech not overheating it allows the game we have currently. Heat is one way to at least temper it a bit since again they can't/won't fix convergence.

Your signature weapon idea, this heat idea (with some refinements) and a few other items with mobility (especially of heavies and JJs) will get this game to a point that a lot of folks want.

Explosions of ammo and gauss rifles need to be more prevalent across the board even if none of the other ideas on the forums ever get looked at. It's a pity that case means so little.

[Sader325]

Red Shrike, on 28 January 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

It seems its people's insistance on getting as much DPS as possible for the least amount of effort possible that's breaking the game. What a surprise.

So what you're saying is you find it surprising that more people don't play badly on purpose?

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

What kind of person plays a game badly on purpose?

Barantor, on 28 January 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

Part of the problem with the convergence (which evidently they can't/won't fix) is the amount of weapons you can fire at once. When we have 50+ alpha strikes going downrange with the mech not overheating it allows the game we have currently. Heat is one way to at least temper it a bit since again they can't/won't fix convergence.

Your signature weapon idea, this heat idea (with some refinements) and a few other items with mobility (especially of heavies and JJs) will get this game to a point that a lot of folks want.

Explosions of ammo and gauss rifles need to be more prevalent across the board even if none of the other ideas on the forums ever get looked at. It's a pity that case means so little.

You seem to be completely ignoring the existence of dual/triple/quad+++++ UAC builds that would completly circumevent this entire thread and would become the meta.

While you're busy being immersed in your high TTK, heat meta game, 99% of other people would be busy shredding you to death with no/low heat weapon systems.

[Lefty Lucy]

People in this thread are looking at TT balance with extreme rose-colored-neurohelmets and also many times speaking wildly inaccurately.

The TT heat scale was designed for a game where you could *easily* make heat neutral mechs that didn't touch the heat scale at all barring engine damage. People talk about "TT balance" with precisely zero clue what that actually means. TT balance is and was horrible. Even if you disallowed custom mechs, people would always choose the more heat-neutral variant of a mech if they had that choice.

The heat system in this game is actually far more elegantly balanced, because unless you run an entirely ammo-dependent mech with low-heat generating weapons such as AC5s, you're always going to have to take some time to cool down, and shutting down in combat is a real threat. I can't think of the last time I shut down and actually survived it.

In TT with ammo cook-offs and other "interesting" heat scale penalties, but also the ability to design completely heat-neutral energy boats can you guess what the meta is? Laser vomit. None of the ideas posted in this thread would *actually* make the game any more balanced than it is right now.

Edited by Lefty Lucy, 28 January 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Barantor]

Sader325, on 28 January 2016 - 09:07 AM, said:

So what you're saying is you find it surprising that more people don't play badly on purpose?

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

What kind of person plays a game badly on purpose?



You seem to be completely ignoring the existence of dual/triple/quad+++++ UAC builds that would completely circumvent this entire thread and would become the meta.

While you're busy being immersed in your high TTK, heat meta game, 99% of other people would be busy shredding you to death with no/low heat weapon systems.

You would've run out of ammo in your video right at your second kill if ammo rates were what they were supposed to be. Had they actually shot you you might have even exploded if the ammo explosion chance was set to something other than 'non existent'.

I'm not ignoring that ballistics do low heat, just that they would have less ammo and the ammo they would have would be more prone to explosions. Clans would do ballistics a little better because of CASE and IS would have a reason to actually equip that piece of gear instead of loading up legs/head.

That's the thing though, if you take ONE of any of these proposed fixes you end up messing it all up, if you take them all then we get something that I think is more in line with Mechwarrior Online: A Battletech Game and less with Mechassault.

This stuff has been said and debated since beta though, we will get E-sports I guess instead.

Lefty Lucy, on 28 January 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

People in this thread are looking at TT balance with extreme rose-colored-neurohelmets and also many times speaking wildly inaccurately.

The TT heat scale was designed for a game where you could *easily* make heat neutral mechs that didn't touch the heat scale at all barring engine damage. People talk about "TT balance" with precisely zero clue what that actually means. TT balance is and was horrible. Even if you disallowed custom mechs, people would always choose the more heat-neutral variant of a mech if they had that choice.

The heat system in this game is actually far more elegantly balanced, because unless you run an entirely ammo-dependent mech with low-heat generating weapons such as AC5s, you're always going to have to take some time to cool down, and shutting down in combat is a real threat. I can't think of the last time I shut down and actually survived it.

In TT with ammo cook-offs and other "interesting" heat scale penalties, but also the ability to design completely heat-neutral energy boats can you guess what the meta is? Laser vomit. None of the ideas posted in this thread would *actually* make the game any more balanced than it is right now.

I freely admit that, because we have unfettered ability to customize mechs with little regard to balance of them. It is too late to undo any of it and all these ideas probably died in beta and won't ever be brought into the game.

It's sad in a way, because this is a pretty game but one that doesn't reflect well on the Tabletop game that is it's granddaddy as well as many of us hoped. I don't want it to be turn based, but I would like it to feel like the IS mechs are decades old... oh well.

[Sader325]

Barantor, on 28 January 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

You would've run out of ammo in your video right at your second kill if ammo rates were what they were supposed to be. Had they actually shot you you might have even exploded if the ammo explosion chance was set to something other than 'non existent'.

I'm not ignoring that ballistics do low heat, just that they would have less ammo and the ammo they would have would be more prone to explosions. Clans would do ballistics a little better because of CASE and IS would have a reason to actually equip that piece of gear instead of loading up legs/head.

That's the thing though, if you take ONE of any of these proposed fixes you end up messing it all up, if you take them all then we get something that I think is more in line with Mechwarrior Online: A Battletech Game and less with Mechassault.

This stuff has been said and debated since beta though, we will get E-sports I guess instead.



I freely admit that, because we have unfettered ability to customize mechs with little regard to balance of them. It is too late to undo any of it and all these ideas probably died in beta and won't ever be brought into the game.

It's sad in a way, because this is a pretty game but one that doesn't reflect well on the Tabletop game that is it's granddaddy as well as many of us hoped. I don't want it to be turn based, but I would like it to feel like the IS mechs are decades old... oh well.

They doubled ingame armor.

You can't cherry pick what you want from TT.

You want TT ammo count? You get TT Armor values too.

[Barantor]

Sader325, on 28 January 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

They doubled ingame armor.

You can't cherry pick what you want from TT.

You want TT ammo count? You get TT Armor values too.

I'm fine with that, but I'm one of the folks that would love a stock mode too.

It would probably really slow down the cool downs and fire rate.....

There is a middle ground, but we aren't even in the same hemisphere as it right now IMO.

I'd play this game a LOT more if it was closer.

[Lefty Lucy]

Sader325, on 28 January 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

They doubled ingame armor.

You can't cherry pick what you want from TT.

You want TT ammo count? You get TT Armor values too.

Yup, people talk about TTK like it's a real problem, but before armor/structure values were doubled you would die literally instantly upon enemy contact.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

You don't need consequences of high heat to curb large energy alphas, you just need to lower heat caps a bit. As for Gauss, you could always give it more heat to keep it in check since it has been a problem since day 1 for obvious reasons, and then you can get rid of the charge mechanic and cap on how many you can charge at once. Then you can remove ghost heat and find a nice sweet spot for heat caps so that energy alphas are strong, but not too strong (though this partially has to do with how bad projectiles are).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 January 2016 - 09:50 AM.

[Cementi]

I personally think that adding in a true heat scale that has meaning would solve so many of this games balance issues.

I personally would like to see ammo explosions remain exactly that. Maybe 5,10,15, and at max 20%. Shutdown remain exactly that but be 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25% chance respectively. These are still far more forgiving than the base values but I feel they need to be in. Energy runs high heat but enough ballistics should have some risk too otherwise we will just see what we have now, gauss paired with lasers.

The trick is these penalties are only supposed to kick in at the end of the turn after your heat sinks have had some time to work. In MWO you would have to put in some kind of a timer mechanisim. Maybe have it check where your heat is every 10 seconds and apply whatever penalty is determined for the next 10 seconds, then recheck.

Allthough I did not read the 8 pages of posts the ones I did read I seen some saying that a higher heat cap is needed. It is not. Decent alpha strikes would still be possible you just would not be able to do 3 or 4 in a row.

For example my 3 large pulse Thunderbolt 9SE has 19 double heat sinks. Currently I think I can get off 4 maybe 5 alpha strikes without any issue. I would have to check not sure.

With a a proper heat scale and current heat values I would fire this and generate 21 heat. If I waited 10 seconds before firing again my 19 double heat sinks would be overkill and I would incur no penalty.

However If I fire twice in that 10 second window I would generate 42 heat and my heat sinks would drop it to 4 heat. Still not enough for a penalty. Over the next 10 seconds I fire 2 more times and I go up to 8 heat for a pretty moderate penalty.

Sounds like it is really not that much different from right now and that is because it wouldnt be. They would also have to revert to proper heat values for weapons. Large pulse lasers are actually supposed to be 10 heat each. The above senario would become.

One salvo puts you at 30 heat and if you wait 10 seconds you are free and clear. However if you fire a second salvo in that first 10 seconds you spike to 60. Heat sinks kick in and you drop to 22. Ouch time you are in for some serious penalties. Maybe you should have brought a more varied loadout or only fired 4 large pulse over that first 10 seconds. Heat would only have been at 2 then.

Alpha strikes are supposed to be desperation moves and I think need to be brought back to that. If they really did not want to code in the timer you could use a heat cap of 60 but you would have to increase the ammo and shutdown chances, maybe double what I have suggested.

Now to those how claim the meta would just switch to ballistics. With the OP's suggestion it would. Ammo explosions have to be a real threat. If you put those in then you will have people who want to boat them sure. But eventually the odds would catch up with them and something would go pop. The first ammo explosion from heat does not occur till 19, if you increase the scale to 60 then at 38. Not likely that a ballistic boat would ever get that high but if ammo always, or at least more often than it does now explode when it gets crit then you have that risk element back. So that one does require more than just the heat scale change.

[Cementi]

Oh and as someone who hates gauss, I call it the noob cannon as it's non heat high velocity properties make it super easy to use. You do not have to manage heat and barely have to lead a target. Sure it has a charge mechanic on it but honestly with a little practice it does not take that much to get used to and then you can spam it all day long and pretty much ignore your heat, the baseline for everything the game is built on.

Put in a proper heat scale, make ammo explosions a true threat. Then you can go ahead and remove that charge mechanic go ahead. Gauss Popcorn sounds tasty. However since they tweaked all the structure values the gauss explosion may have to have its damage increased to remain a risk. Ammo explosions were always a bit over the top damage wise so could probally remain as is or even have the damage lessened.

[Almond Brown]

Spleenslitta, on 25 September 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

Imagine if flamers had a huge chance of cooking off ammo that is without armor protecting it. Flamers would actually be usefull then.
Usefull without boating them even.

There is one sad thing about all this cdlord. Similar threads have been made multiple times in the feature suggestions part of the forum.
Despite this i cannot remember a single such thread where the dev's took any interrest by posting their opinion on it.
I'm afraid the dev's have set their course and won't deviate from it anytime soon. Maybe even never.

I remember when ammunition explosions actually occured several times per match. Now we might see 1 possibly 2 ammo explosions per match with all 24 mech included.
Ammo has only 10% chance of exploding when it's critted to the point that it is destroyed. Gauss's are far more dangerous than ammo right now because of that low 10% chance

Well in fairness to the Dev's they want the game to be "Fun" at its Core. The fact that some may think that having their Mech become literally "debilitated" at +/- 60% of its Heat threshold is somehow "Fun" OR more "Simmy" never precludes the fact that many, many more would not see it that way.

Thus the Dev have to weigh what the few want versus the many.

I am not at all adverse to something like this but I will always be against any system that tanks my Mechs fighting potential when it is being used for it designed purpose. Run and Gun Fun... Making me "blind" at 70%... Me thinks not...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Cementi, on 28 January 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

Gauss Popcorn sounds tasty.

You do realize Gauss does not explode due to heat, ammo explosions mean just that, ammo. Gauss ammo does not cook, and the weapon only explodes when destroyed (in this game at least).

Though it is really funny people think ammo explosions are some balancing mechanism.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 January 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 January 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

Though it is really funny people think ammo explosions are some balancing mechanism.

>Most ammo-based weapons are outclassed at the moment
>Let's make ammo-based weapons weaker
>Lulz