212 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Ok guys i didnt know that the TT Minimum range was a accuracy Penalty,
thats my fault i should have looked more into it, the Full Specs of Gauss in TT,

but on another Note, This isnt a Suggesting to replace the Charge,
this would be added ontop of it, to give other weapons a better Close Range Advantage,
Gauss in Essence is a Long Range Sniping Weapon, that was the Pretense of this Idea,

[pyrocomp]

Andi Nagasia, on 28 September 2015 - 03:38 PM, said:

Ok guys i didnt know that the TT Minimum range was a accuracy Penalty,
thats my fault i should have looked more into it, the Full Specs of Gauss in TT,

but on another Note, This isnt a Suggesting to replace the Charge,
this would be added ontop of it, to give other weapons a better Close Range Advantage,
Gauss in Essence is a Long Range Sniping Weapon, that was the Pretense of this Idea,

Then also ask for magic minimum rabge for LLs. Aslo a sniping weapon.

[Aethon]

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Also, yes, Gauss Charge was used for the desynch, but it has basis in lore, and TT.

Not quite. The Gauss Rifles in canon charged while the projectile was being loaded, and were fired when the pilot depressed the firing stud. When you think of it from a real-life standpoint, it makes sense. Unnecessarily complicating a trigger mechanism for someone who will be using it in combat is silly.

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

You mean like the charge mechanic that makes it harder to bring the weapon to bear at close ranges? Yes, we already have that.

I never had problems using the new Gauss Rifle in close quarters. If anything, it is easier than autocannons due to it being pretty much hitscan at brawling range, which means it syncs nicely with lasers against anything other than lights or really fast mediums.

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Not to mention that the charge mechanic is AGAIN in flavor. It's in the lore.

Nope. See the top of my reply.

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 08:53 PM, said:

Look, Gauss gives you 15 PP FLD near instant damage at any location you aim at, for almost no heat. Making it snap fire was a huge problem. Understand that snap fire is one of the biggest issues with Gauss. If you're bringing it back, then you need some serious nerfs to the weapon, in another way.

I never had any argument with any of this; I am all for nerfing it in some other way to make the other ballistics more useful. I just hate the way it feels like a slingshot.

[bad arcade kitty]

i really like that logic though

gauss has charge-up mechanics which it doesn't have in tt, it's 'for balance reasons, lore doesn't matter there'
gauss doesn't have a minimal range which it has in tt, it's 'against muh lore, needs fixing'

[Slepnir]

The problem isn't The minimum range, it's the fact PGI has the weapon balance backwards.

As sniping weapons both the PPC and GAUSS should have incredibly high projectile speed but also incredibly long cool down. making them a great sniper weapon but a horrible brawling weapon.

With a few exceptions every mech in battletech was designed to stand alone, be able to fight in all types of terrain at all ranges. thats why most stock designs only incorporate a few long range weapons and a mix of secondary weapons for medium and short range combat.

[bad arcade kitty]

yet again 'boating is bad mmkey' reasoning; why is it bad, because you said so?

quite a lot of stock lore builds are pure boats too

btw gauss has a pretty long cd and a charge time on top of that, 4 machineguns outdps it
also gauss is worse than er-ll for very long range sniping

[Johny Rocket]

OP, Umm Physics.

I fully admit to not reading 8 pages of god only knows what, I'm sure some one has already hit on why you can't have a min range on Gauss, its a projectile, we going to create a wormhole thru space/time to enforce a min range?
Wouldn't be a half bad strategy for 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000km shots though, shoot you across the galaxy 20 years in the past. Cool.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 28 September 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Tractor Joe, on 28 September 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

OP, Umm Physics.

I fully admit to not reading 8 pages of god only knows what, I'm sure some one has already hit on why you can't have a min range on Gauss, its a projectile, we going to create a wormhole thru space/time to enforce a min range?

the concept is bound in physics, if Gauss has a Case around the Shell that is Discarded(as seen in game),
hitting an Object before discarding the Casing would cause the Shell to Disintegrate instead of Penetrate,

[Funkin Disher]

Gauss has always been one of the best weapon choices in BT, and mechwarrior games too.

The primary problem people have with it seems to be its ability to multitask as both a long range and short range weapon, where it is supposed to be a long range weapon primarily. The charge takes away the ability to snap shot, but does not deal with gausses at short ranges, where the fragile & exploding gauss change was supposed to make it undesirable as a brawling weapon.

My Ideas:
- Remove current charge and fragility, keep exploding gauss because ammo doesn't explode. Also TT
- Much lower base velocity
- The charge mechanic instead increases velocity instead of preventing firing. Good pilots that can lead well can snap shot again, and it can still be used at close range effectively if necessary. However this mastery takes time and skill, and good pilots on the receiving end will have a much better chance of twisting away from the shot when not charged (like in mid-short range brawls). Lower skill floor, higher skill ceiling.
- Slow reload time, so targets struck have enough time to respond either by seeking cover or rushing in to engage
- The heat generated from the gauss occurs over time like a laser firing. This buildup occurs during the charge as well as 1 second after firing, which means although you do not heat up (because the heat of a gauss rifle is too low to do so) you do not cool down for a good 1-2 seconds either, so using it in a brawl or other sustained fire situation will leave much more prone to overheating, though this is not unmanageable.

So there is an incentive not to brawl with the gauss without taking away the option entirely nor penalizing snipers.

[Slepnir]

bad arcade kitty, on 28 September 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

yet again 'boating is bad mmkey' reasoning; why is it bad, because you said so?

quite a lot of stock lore builds are pure boats too

btw gauss has a pretty long cd and a charge time on top of that, 4 machineguns outdps it
also gauss is worse than er-ll for very long range sniping

Depends on what you mean by boat, even the 3 gauss thunderhawk still has a smattering of medium lasers to protect it up close. with the exception of say a devestator or a yeoman most mech don't boat in TT.

The gauss should not have a charge mechanic but it should have a 10 second cooldown.

[Matthew Ace]

Hmm here's another thought besides my earlier idea of how I would prefer the Gauss to be (see post #63 in this thread).

The gauss is pretty hefty (15 tons / 12 tons) and denser than AC20s (ton-to-crit ratio, and centre of gravity) so maybe the gyro needs to work harder to stabilise such weapons. In TT, firing Heavy Gausses unbraced (i.e. not standing still) causes the firer to need to make piloting roll to not fall.

What if some form of inaccuracy (the exact form is not stated) is induced for such weapons due to fast sudden movements (quickly twisting or pitching torso and then immediately firing, as opposed to resting or slowing down within 0.25s to stabilise the weapon, for example)? This inaccuracy acts as the minimum range.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 28 September 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[GenghisJr]

No.
Damage from gauss would be greatest at point blank, its a physical object that is accelerated.
No magical rules of non existence for the first 90m thanks.

[Funkin Disher]

Matthew Ace, on 28 September 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

Hmm here's another thought besides my earlier idea of how I would prefer the Gauss to be (see post #63 in this thread).

The gauss is pretty hefty (15 tons / 12 tons) and denser than AC20s (ton-to-crit ratio), so maybe the gyro needs to work harder to stabilise such weapons. In TT, firing Heavy Gausses unbraced (i.e. not standing still) causes the firer to need to make piloting roll to not fall.

What if some form of inaccuracy (the exact form is not stated) is induced for such weapons due to fast sudden movements (quickly twisting or pitching torso and then immediately firing, as opposed to resting or slowing down within 0.25s to stabilise the weapon, for example)? This inaccuracy acts as the minimum range.

Not bad, requires you to slow down to fire or it'll knock you off balance. Perhaps even just have reticule shake (for the gauss only) for 0.25s after moving at faster than 50% speed/torso twist.

[DivineEvil]

Quote

so as most Meta Combat seems to be Gauss + Laser was thinking,
why not add in the 60m-90m Minimum range that Gauss had in TT?

Because it doesn't make sense.

Quote

But how could Gauss have a Minimum range with it being Fired by magnates?well most conventional RailGuns/CoilRifles they have a Protective Casing around them,

this Casing protects the Device from the Round during the Firing and is discarded after,

There's nothing to protect a weapon from. I have no idea what are you talking and where have you've pulled that from.

Quote

so my idea, give IS-Gauss 60m & C-Gauss 90m No-Damage/Reduced-Damage Range,this is because if the Shell hits before the Casing is discarded, the round disintegrates,
remember this Casing is designed to Carry the Round to allow it to reach High Speeds,

after leaving the Weapon it has to be discarded as its acting as access drag,

All coilguns I've seen use nothing you're talking about. Besides, round desintegrates when it hits a target anyways. So no. This Sci-Fi has too much "Fi" to it.

Quote

Why 60m for IS and 90m for Clan?Style= to make them abit different than each other,

Balance= because Clan Gauss is lighter,

Makes no sense. Better just to increase Clan Gauss charge-up and release durations.

So No. I'm a dedicated IS player and I don't see Gauss as overpowered in any way. It's the heaviest weapon in game to date, specifically designed for sniping and has pay-offs for it's advantages.

[EAP10]

Wow, these gauss discussion threads are always so... Interesting. I'll need to grab me some popcorn next time.

[wanderer]

bad arcade kitty, on 28 September 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

btw gauss has a pretty long cd and a charge time on top of that, 4 machineguns outdps it
also gauss is worse than er-ll for very long range sniping

It's not about DPS because it's about how much damage you can put into one location with minimal facetime. Please, sit there at MG range and we'll trade shots and see who dies first- me with the pinpoint damage delivery or you spraying MG ******* while your cone-of-fire drizzles yellow over my armor plating.

And the Gauss does it.

[DivineEvil]

wanderer, on 28 September 2015 - 06:22 PM, said:

It's not about DPS because it's about how much damage you can put into one location with minimal facetime. Please, sit there at MG range and we'll trade shots and see who dies first- me with the pinpoint damage delivery or you spraying MG ******* while your cone-of-fire drizzles yellow over my armor plating.

And the Gauss does it.

It's also about mass. Its 2+A versus 15+A. Also charge-up. Also fragility. And blow-out.

[wanderer]

Please, point me at the metamechs arming themselves with quad MG's.

No, seriously.

Now, the ones with a Gauss rifle.

I'm betting we find plenty more of the latter vs. the former. Lasers? Yeah. Gauss? Yeah. You'll find those on the high-tier battlefields. Yeah, Gauss rifles are the heaviest gun in the game- but they're also the ones that need zero heatsinks to cool them, leaving more for the guns backing them up.

You won't find frickin' machineguns.

[Khobai]

Quote

Because it doesn't make sense.

what doesnt make sense is selectively cherry picking things that dont make sense in an entire game that doesnt make sense. Seriously not one thing in MWO makes sense.

once you realize its just a game and doesnt have to make sense then you can throw that all that realism nonsense out the window.

whats most important for games is implementing rules which establish balance. if gauss needs a minimum range for balance then it should get a minimum range. whether it makes sense or not has no real bearing.

Quote

It's not about DPS because it's about how much damage you can put into one location with minimal facetime.

This. The whole problem with DPS weapons is that they require facetime. Both the enemy giving you facetime as well as you giving the enemy facetime. And if one player decides not to give the other player facetime then the DPS ceases.

Gauss is a weapon which strongly plays into the strategy of minimizing facetime with the enemy. In doing so you completely negate all of the enemy's DPS weapons. And since gauss is also long range you can also negate all of their short range weapons by staying at long range. So basically a smart player using gauss really only ends up being susceptible to other players that are also using lasers/gauss (since ppcs are way too slow to hit anything at long range now).

Hence why the entire meta now revolves around laser/gauss and high mount weapons that help minimize facetime.


So why do I think min range on gauss would probably be a good thing? Well by giving gauss a min range you incorporate a strong exploitable weakness into mechs that rely primarily on gauss to do their damage. Dual Gauss builds would have to be extra careful about engaging enemies close up because their gauss wont help them very much.

Edited by Khobai, 28 September 2015 - 07:01 PM.

[fat4eyes]

To put the following into context, I was suggesting that the Gauss be very inaccurate or have reduced damage if you're not zoomed in using advanced zoom (like sniper rifles in other shooters).

IraqiWalker, on 27 September 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

In TT, minimum range meant it was difficult to aim the weapon within that range. It meant the weapon had a good chance of being inaccurate. HOWEVER!!!!1111!11!!one, a pilot with high enough skill can practically render that penalty non-existent.

So yes, at higher levels of play, Gauss' minimum range practically doesn't exist, as it should. That's one of the most TT faithful implementations we have in the game. Might be the only one actually.

Now let me explain something else:

Trying to make Gauss Rifles difficult to use at higher tiers of play will render them very difficult to use at the lower ones, if not outright impossible. It's making them into Nega-LRMs. Instead of being very easy to use at lower levels, and impossible to work at upper ones, you'll make them difficult to use at upper ones, and virtually impossible to use at lower ones.

I want the Gauss rifle to be very hard to use as a close-in weapon, not harder to use at all skill levels at all ranges. Forcing the use of advanced zoom for Gauss accuracy will not hurt the usability of the Gauss rifle at long range at any skill level (which is its purpose). It would however require A LOT MORE SKILL to use in short range. If you can hit a circling light mech at 100m using gauss with advanced zoom and charge up, then I won't complain because you deserved that kill.

Mystere, on 27 September 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

I really cannot understand why people are against a weapon having a higher skill requirement and would rather have it dumbed down.

If anything I want the Gauss to require EVEN MORE skill if you want to use it as a close range weapon. Forcing the use of advanced zoom for Gauss to work properly on top of the charge mechanic requires a LOT practice than just the charge up. And it wouldn't affect the viability of Gauss for long range at all.

Edited by fat4eyes, 28 September 2015 - 07:02 PM.