212 replies to this topic

[Homeskilit]

VinJade, on 27 September 2015 - 01:29 AM, said:

Be careful when throwing such accusations around Zerb.
and to compare a KID to someone is very stupid and uncalled for .
we are talking about TT here, also maybe some have a harder time mastering things due to other reasons.

besides it is like saying, I learned to build a mech from memory with only a few points of armor error when I was ten(which I could), why can't your kid or you for that matter do the same?

I haven't used the Gauss Rifle more then once when I was testing out the Atlas & despised how it worked. when a company claims to be a Battletech game I was expecting at the very least weapons to act the same.

@HS
yes the PPC needs its full damage at pointblank range and find some other way to 'balance' the weapon other than making it a seven ton three crit paper wight.

using the Standard PPC in TT took skill to use than some might think. a novice would miss a lot up close.

If you only used something once you cannot expect to understand it at all, much less make any kind of declaration on it. You do not have the experience. Play 20 or so games and see how it feels, an average game is probably 5 min, 20 games is a whole hour of your time. I am seriously sad you played one game with a weapon and feel you can comment on its balance (and the Atlas is generally considered to be a bad platform for the gauss).

Why would you use a PPC over an ER PPC though? Same weight, slots, and damage but you are trading range (both close and far) for heat that seems pretty fair to me (if the heat for both is a little high for that amount of damage).

[Homeskilit]

generalazure, on 27 September 2015 - 02:00 AM, said:

That's horribly inefficient, but I guess it fits with most of the other tech around here

Lol is was a simplified answer but that is how it is described in the books so I thought it fitting. I do not think the creators of BT saw humanity developing technology like rail guns some 30 years after the game was created. In the lore the gauss was created in 2590 but the U.S. has working rail guns now and the sabbot is specific piece designed to house the bullet shaped rounds those guns are using rather then a spherical shaped round we are using.

*sorry for double post

Edited by Homeskilit, 27 September 2015 - 02:14 AM.

[VinJade]

In one fight using the Atlas I ended up wasting all of the Ammo trying to get use to it, and the game lasted longer than five minutes.

Also one can argue the point of using the weapon only one fight as it is nothing like the TT game and thus I tried my best to use it and found the way they handled it to be sub par.

The Std PPC is found on many mechs as it's base weapon and it also does less heat. I always liked the Std PPC and to find out they f'ed it up so bad that you are forced to use the ER counter part is just as stupid.

don't get me wrong I like the ER PPC as well, its just to render the PPC useless just because another weapon of the same weight and tonnage is 'better' is crazy.

By the way until MWO divorces itself from battletech one can compare the two seeing as it is called MechWarrior Online A Battletech game

Edited by VinJade, 27 September 2015 - 02:21 AM.

[Zerberus]

VinJade, on 27 September 2015 - 01:29 AM, said:

Be careful when throwing such accusations around Zerb.
and to compare a KID to someone is very stupid and uncalled for .....

If you cannot handle or accept the truth, that is not my problem, it is yours. Stating facts is never "stupid". On the other hand, attempting to discredit them with contentless remarks simply because you don`t like them could very well be described as such.

And the fact, whether you like it or not, is that a child can understand and become reasonably effective with it in less time that we have spent here debating about how it "needs" to be fixed.

Then you proceed to state that you tried the weapon ONCE. How exactly is NOT attempting to understand and become proficient with it but calling for it to be changed NOT being lazy? Assuming that is the accusation i should not be throwing around... Who in the history of humanity has EVER become good at something by trying it once, not liking it, and quitting?

BTW, expecting weapons to act the same as on tabletop is, with all due respect, preposterous. Being allowed to fire and move every ten seconds would be boring at best. And I can`t remember when I was allowed to use a mouse to aim on TT, either....

Edited by Zerberus, 27 September 2015 - 02:23 AM.

[Whatzituyah]

Zerb is right you know I can't remember once that I used LRMs properly. Just because I am bad at them doesnt mean another is bad too. Unless thats what Zerb is not talking about.

[Zerberus]

It`s not about the kid, no matter how much you may or may not dream of it being about him just so you can feel insulted.

It`s about not having the testicular fortitude to stick with it long enough to learn it.

Which btw is identical to what you`re doing here. You don´t want to understand it, therefore you can`t.

The only reason the child is relevant at all is to illustrate the simplicity of the mechanic.

Im sorry for your illness, but it´s entirely irrelevant. Other people have problems, too, problems that you don`t know about, that "may" make yours look like a joke.... Think about that next time, before you play the wounded warrior card.

Being insulted is always a personal choice, becasue you choose to interpret the words in that fashion. Just like it`s your choice to quit instead of trying to get better. These are, once again, your problems, and not mine or anyone else´s. If you had my problems you`d probably be on your knees begging to have yours back. Just because I don´t wear them on my sleeve in a pitiful attempt to generate sympathy doesn`t mean I don`t have them.

Edited by Zerberus, 27 September 2015 - 02:47 AM.

[Signal27]

Andi Nagasia, on 26 September 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

why not add in the 60m-90m Minimum range that Gauss had in TT?

Why not avoid face-hugging a dude with a Gauss Rifle?

[fat4eyes]

The gauss rifle is suffering from the 'sniper rifle used as a shotgun' syndrome that's seen in many other shooters. The charge up mechanic was an attempt to fix it, but while it works at lower skill levels you eventually get up to the point where people have learned to get around the charge up mechanism even at short range.

The most common solution to the sniper-shotgun problem in other games is to force the user of the sniper rifle to use the scope, either by greatly reducing the sniper rifle's accuracy when firing at the hip, or just downright reducing its damage if the scope is not used.

So why not do this for the gauss rifle as well? If you're not using advanced zoom, then either it does reduced damage, or gets a cone of fire (similar to reticle shake when jumpjetting). That way its much harder to use the gauss rifle as a snap fire weapon at close range.

It's easy enough to explain in-universe too. You can say that the servos that do the fine aiming or the computer controlling the magnetic coil activation sequence for the gauss rifle requires precise range information that is only available if you use advanced zoom. Hey, it's not half as bad as the 'field inhibitor' explanation for the PPC minimum range.

The real gameplay reason though is that the gauss SHOULD be a specialized long range weapon, and it SHOULD be beaten at close range by AC20s, SRMs or SPLs. That is not the case right now. Once you get to a certain skill level, the charge up mechanic is not enough of a counter for the gauss' low heat, precision and high projectile speed.

[VinJade]

@Fat4eyes
you have many good points here and I like your reasoning and well thought out views.
I think it would be a great change to the Gauss Rifle and would also explain the needing to charge it up,

and on a side note I think I should as reread IW and HS's post slower and carefully from here on out.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

They got rid of this idea in early CB because it "didnt make any sense" and was highlighted as one of the major changes made for that reason exactly

VinJade, on 27 September 2015 - 03:04 AM, said:

I think it would be a great change to the Gauss Rifle and would also explain the needing to charge it up,

How about hell no?

Stupid charge mechanic is bad enough without adding that you cant do damage magically within a certain range -.-

And you wanna go down that road, didnt the ac2 have one as well? Cause you know, nerfing crappy weapons is cool.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 27 September 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[VinJade]

@Mechwarrior Buddah
well as they say can't beat 'em join 'em.

we will never win Buddah and fighting against it will lead to nothing but frustration & headaches.

and I figured if people think it is such a good weapon that one must practice over and over again because it takes 'skill' to use it then why not make it even more for the skillful?

believe me I would love to get rid of the charging and return it to how it should be but it will never happen.

Edited by VinJade, 27 September 2015 - 03:34 AM.

[Lightfoot]

VinJade, on 27 September 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

In one fight using the Atlas I ended up wasting all of the Ammo trying to get use to it, and the game lasted longer than five minutes.

Also one can argue the point of using the weapon only one fight as it is nothing like the TT game and thus I tried my best to use it and found the way they handled it to be sub par.

The Std PPC is found on many mechs as it's base weapon and it also does less heat. I always liked the Std PPC and to find out they f'ed it up so bad that you are forced to use the ER counter part is just as stupid.

don't get me wrong I like the ER PPC as well, its just to render the PPC useless just because another weapon of the same weight and tonnage is 'better' is crazy.

By the way until MWO divorces itself from battletech one can compare the two seeing as it is called MechWarrior Online A Battletech game

Originally MWO set the PPC up to have reducing damage within 90 meters until it did zero damage at 1 meter. Then because of all the player whining they added the zero damage within 90 meters, but the whining didn't stop. Whining is like, "PPC Meta is OP and I Quit!!!", etc. So then they slowed them from 1500 to 950 mps which is when no one would use PPCs anymore so they buffed the speed a bit back to 1100 mps. Just pointing out that maybe it's time to reverse the zero damage within 90 meters nerf. Battle Tech says the PPC has a Field Inhibitor that the pilot can disengage with risk of damage to negate the 90 meter minimum. That would also be fine.

[VinJade]

Quote

[color=#000000]his inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range.[/color]

It never says it loses any damage within 90 meters which means it should be doing full damage to the target and should have a low chance of it happening as it didn't say high chance just a chance so it sounds like it is slim chance but it is still there.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Hey I got an idea, when you get a range module, it increases the minimum by that amount too

[sycocys]

Here's an actual idea, and also why weapon balance should be on the weapons not on the mechs.

Guass Rifle (equipped) -
-5% heat capacity
-7% cooling rate
-5% pitch
-5% yaw
-5% movement speed

2nd rifle equipped, accumulative changes.
-10% heat capacity
-14% cooling rate
-10% pitch
-10% yaw
-10% movement speed

They don't need to double, that's just for reference. The second/3rd/4th equipped just need to add incremental boating debuffs - attached directly to the weapon, not to the mech.

[VinJade]

@Buddah
Don't be mad at me I'm not the one who actually against the removal of the manual charge, just that we both know it will never change no matter how much we 'whine' about bringing it to par with the very game MWO is claiming to be.

[IraqiWalker]

VinJade, on 27 September 2015 - 01:41 AM, said:

@IW
The thing is that only affects up close not at range making the Manuel charge illogical.
Using the GR in the TT I did very well with along with the PPC up close.
however the way they set up the GR & PPC was crazy to say the least.

Gauss is supposed to be difficult up close. I'm not understanding your post. If you're saying that you have difficulty with it at short range, then that's what it's supposed to do.

fat4eyes, on 27 September 2015 - 02:58 AM, said:

The gauss rifle is suffering from the 'sniper rifle used as a shotgun' syndrome that's seen in many other shooters. The charge up mechanic was an attempt to fix it, but while it works at lower skill levels you eventually get up to the point where people have learned to get around the charge up mechanism even at short range.

that's WORKING AS IT SHOULD!!!

Alright, since we started this with using TT. Let me break something down for everyone, again.

In TT, minimum range meant it was difficult to aim the weapon within that range. It meant the weapon had a good chance of being inaccurate. HOWEVER!!!!1111!11!!one, a pilot with high enough skill can practically render that penalty non-existent.

So yes, at higher levels of play, Gauss' minimum range practically doesn't exist, as it should. That's one of the most TT faithful implementations we have in the game. Might be the only one actually.

Now let me explain something else:

Trying to make Gauss Rifles difficult to use at higher tiers of play will render them very difficult to use at the lower ones, if not outright impossible. It's making them into Nega-LRMs. Instead of being very easy to use at lower levels, and impossible to work at upper ones, you'll make them difficult to use at upper ones, and virtually impossible to use at lower ones.

For example: adding an actual minimum range, will only impact the lower levels. Because that's the only place where you will see mechs actually jousting. While upper levels will have no problems.

[D A T A]

dumbest idea i have ever heard: pro players can play pro and i can not? what is the solution? nerf them so i look better even if i am crap.

[VinJade]

I am talking about that it should have some problems close range which is understandable however at ranges outside of the weapon's min range it should more or less be very easy to use, however the manual charge does not reflect this at all.

An normal pilot with a P5/G5 and the enemy moving 4-6 should have no problems using it outside of min range unless tw changed this.

Using this as an example Charging makes it harder to use then it should be. the pilot(Player) should be concentrating on the fight and the enemy not wasting time manually charging a weapon that should be doing it on its own.

if TT wanted something like this they would have added something like making the player wait an extra turn or something like that.

however the GR doesn't work that(mwo) way.

Edited by VinJade, 27 September 2015 - 04:36 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

VinJade, on 27 September 2015 - 04:33 AM, said:

I am talking about that it should have some problems close range which is understandable however at ranges outside of the weapon's min range it should more or less be very easy to use, however the manual charge does not reflect this at all.

An normal pilot with a P5/G5 and the enemy moving 4-6 should have no problems using it outside of min range unless tw changed this.

Using this as an example Charging makes it harder to use then it should be. the pilot(Player) should be concentrating on the fight and the enemy not wasting time manually charging a weapon that should be doing it on its own.

if TT wanted something like this they would have added something like making the player wait an extra turn or something like that.

however the GR doesn't work that(mwo) way.

This is where you and I disagree. I think this is the best way to represent minimum range.

ESPECIALLY because part of the difficulty of using a weapon in minimum range could be that it's distracting, like say because it needs charging (you wouldn't need an extra turn, since a single turn takes 10 seconds, meaning you can actually charge up the Gauss at least 4+ times before firing, and that would total up to less than 10 seconds.)