444 replies to this topic

[Golden Vulf]

If Clan ER PPC dealt the 15 pin point damage they were supposed to, and double heatsinks were actually double heatsinks, you'd see less laser vomit.

If players would spend less time playing peekaboo for the first 10 minutes of every match, you'd see less bltching about range advantage.

The IIc mechs can't come out fast enough. With full customization, clan pilots can finally bring ballistics. It's hard to do that in an omni with 10 extra tons of locked heatsinks, giant oversized engines and standard structure and fixed armor slots that can't be moved around to fit multi-slot weapons.

Yep, the Gargoyle with its 19.5 tons of space must really emphasize the massive advantages that clan mechs have over IS mechs. Is it any wonder why the weapons of choice on a mech with an optional 11 energy weapon slots and a locked 400 engine with 6 locked double heatsinks tends to be 1 or .5 ton energy weapons?

I suppose the reason why Novas dump off 6 of their 12 ER med lasers for 6 extra heatsinks must be because they want to boat heat sinks as part of a troll build.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 05 October 2015 - 11:01 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Golden Vulf, on 05 October 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

If Clan ER PPC dealt the 15 pin point damage they were supposed to, and double heatsinks were actually double heatsinks, you'd see less laser vomit.

Perhaps. If PPCs were actually good for either side, we might see less laser vomit.

Quote

If players would spend less time playing peekaboo for the first 10 minutes of every match, you'd see less bltching about range advantage.

Peekaboo is a symptom, not a cause.

Quote

The IIc mechs can't come out fast enough. With full customization, clan pilots can finally bring ballistics. It's hard to do that in an omni with 10 extra tons of locked heatsinks, giant oversized engines and standard structure and fixed armor slots that can't be moved around to fit multi-slot weapons.

• Clan OmniMechs
  
• Hard to bring ballistics in

There's a good one.

Quote

Yep, the Gargoyle with its 19.5 tons of space must really emphasize the massive advantages that clan mechs have over IS mechs. Is it any wonder why the weapons of choice on a mech with an optional 11 energy weapon slots and a locked 400 engine with 6 locked double heatsinks tends to be 1 or .5 ton energy weapons?

Compared to IS 'Mechs having to mount Standard engines and still only have 19.5 tons of space left over while simultaneously moving slower and carrying less damage potential? I'm all broken up.

Gargles would be great with a smaller movement profile and a lower arm actuator on the laser fist.

Quote

I suppose the reason why Novas dump off 6 of their 12 ER med lasers for 6 extra heatsinks must be because they want to boat heat sinks as part of a troll build.

• Nova having to drop to 6 cERML for a "mere" 42 damage strike
  
• This being a problem

There's another good one. It's like you expect a stock loadout to actually be good, when that isn't the case for any 'Mech except an Arrow and a Storm Crow Prime.

[Mordin Ashe]

How come I missed this topic? I am usually good at finding out the trollings grounds of the interweb but this one I missed completely. I must be getting old...

To the proposed changes:
1) You completely ignored one important fact. IS vs Clan balance takes quirks into consideration, and that was only rarely mentioned. While in battle you see Clan weapons with vanila stats, IS side has much better in-game performance due to abundance of quirks. Proposed changes would effectively nerf all Clan Mechs to the level of T3 and worse. Remember, Clans have either no or scant quirks, IS has huge buffs. That makes the difference. Always compare two machines as they would perform in battle, don't go theorycrafting and ignore better half of the reality!

2) Why nerf Clan lasers? Are they OP or something? IS has range on LLs, heat, duration and cooldown. Clans have some tonnage advantages (in some cases, ML is still 1 ton for each faction and SL is still 0.5t), some range advantages and damage.

3) You realise that CERML is what keeps most of Clan Mechs from T5 status and places them to solid T4, perhaps even T3? While balancing the top tier stuff in a way of those proposed changes might work, each and every other chassis other than the holy trinity will be nerfed to the ground. Remember, always compare two real Mechs in battle! What makes them good aren't weapon stats, those are the same for every Clan Mech (unlike IS). Other things make them stick out.

4) No upgrading for Clans. Can't change what you have. This is important because as everyone who is into energy boats knows you need to alter endo/FF and so on. Energy boats are mostly very light in weapons department but you must balance by requied space for heat sinks and free tonnage for other stuff. IS can do it, Clans can't. Again, in battle this makes a difference but on weapon stat spreadsheet it is as invisible as it can get.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 06 October 2015 - 06:09 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Mordin Ashe, on 06 October 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

How come I missed this topic? I am usually good at finding out the trollings grounds of the interweb but this one I missed completely. I must be getting old...

To the proposed changes:
1) You completely ignored one important fact. IS vs Clan balance takes quirks into consideration, and that was only rarely mentioned. While in battle you see Clan weapons with vanila stats, IS side has much better in-game performance due to abundance of quirks. Proposed changes would effectively nerf all Clan Mechs to the level of T3 and worse. Remember, Clans have either no or scant quirks, IS has huge buffs. That makes the difference. Always compare two machines as they would perform in battle, don't go theorycrafting and ignore better half of the reality!

2) Why nerf Clan lasers? Are they OP or something? IS has range on LLs, heat, duration and cooldown. Clans have some tonnage advantages (in some cases, ML is still 1 ton for each faction and SL is still 0.5t), some range advantages and damage.

3) You realise that CERML is what keeps most of Clan Mechs from T5 status and places them to solid T4, perhaps even T3? While balancing the top tier stuff in a way of those proposed changes might work, each and every other chassis other than the holy trinity will be nerfed to the ground. Remember, always compare two real Mechs in battle! What makes them good aren't weapon stats, those are the same for every Clan Mech (unlike IS). Other things make them stick out.

4) No upgrading for Clans. Can't change what you have. This is important because as everyone who is into energy boats knows you need to alter endo/FF and so on. Energy boats are mostly very light in weapons department but you must balance by requied space for heat sinks and free tonnage for other stuff. IS can do it, Clans can't. Again, in battle this makes a difference but on weapon stat spreadsheet it is as invisible as it can get.

Quirks would be mostly reset with this. Bad robots, including Clams, would be compensated for their downsides.

Clam lasers brought a level of power creep which changed the game. Yes, they should be nerfed. Damage, range, and heat compensated.

This is required, yes. Drop dam, heat, range. The Bad Clams are affected by best, and poor options. Quirk the deficiencies, but to keep the a God Tier atop the throne because of the Bad Clams is a poor option.

Adding the option for Ferro to Endo swapping should be done, and allocate slots for adding Endo+Ferro isn't impossible either. That, or quirks. Nova gets Endos weight in Structure quirks, for example.


You need to look at it objectively. Which mechs are used at the top level? Almost exclusively God Tier Clam mechs, or the occasional Superquirked IS mech. Those without quirks to stay afloat? Ignored.

Bad Clams may need help, but the tech base itself is a touch too strong in places. cLasers and cXL being the best examples.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mordin Ashe, on 06 October 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

4) No upgrading for Clans. Can't change what you have. This is important because as everyone who is into energy boats knows you need to alter endo/FF and so on. Energy boats are mostly very light in weapons department but you must balance by requied space for heat sinks and free tonnage for other stuff. IS can do it, Clans can't. Again, in battle this makes a difference but on weapon stat spreadsheet it is as invisible as it can get.

You must have missed the memo about Clan Battlemechs (aka all of the Origin IIC pack) are able to up/downgrade. Enjoy!

Mordin Ashe, on 06 October 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:

Remember, Clans have either no or scant quirks, IS has huge buffs. That makes the difference.

I wonder why that is.....oh I know, because they are using quirks to bandaid the terrible tech balance. People have said this is a bad role for quirks to play, and that still stands, thus why so many people suggest changing weapon balance to remove the necessity of quirks to help mitigate the terrible tech balance.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 October 2015 - 09:59 AM.