444 replies to this topic

[Nightmare1]

Mellifluer, on 01 October 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

i think i said that srms should get reduced spread not speed, but i wouldnt be against a small speed buff for all srms, the main point i wanted to get across with SRMS is that they need to be more accurate (i think in the area of 10%-25% reduced spread across all srms would do it) and with artemis they should be nearly pinpoint out to their max range.

as for COF i think it just has to be done to balance out ballistics. mind you im not saying they shouldnt hit where you aim, only that regular AC's should be more accurate then ultra AC's and both should still be pretty accurate out to "optimal" (read normal "max") range, only moving at most enough to hit a side torso if you had aimed for a CT and proceed to become increasingly inaccurate as the projectile moves past optimal range.

and for others i dont discount mech quirks only that they should be redone from the ground up after weapons have been balanced properly.

Roger that! I misread part of you post.

Liking it.

[Mcgral18]

So, perhaps we can continue the discussion without the Manchild trolling.


What is the largest issue concerning the Clan lasers. Is it range, damage, or Damage/duration.

Only 2 IS lasers actually beat the Clans in Dam/tick, the LPL (by a fair margin) and the MPL (by a tiny margin). All others are either outright worse, or even with less damage overall (and you can't twist away instantly).

Range is big, as it translates into more damage, because you can shoot earlier.

Damage, is simply more damage, but ties into the second part.
Damage per Tick. Less damage you can twist, or the longer you need to stare.

I'm not a fan of increasing burn times very much, as with the cERLL the 1.5s duration is already pretty big. I'd rather touch damage down and leave durations in similar spots.

[MischiefSC]

I'd rather the solution not be duration based. Damage/heat/range. Less about heat and more range and damage.

[Johnny Z]

Take 1 damage off every clan weapon and be done with it. Balance achieved. Topic closed.

I am only half joking, it very likely would blalance things out more than whats in game now.

With all the bonuses Omni mechs have this would very likely make the game 10x better instantly.

If the Inner Sphere wins out in damage in some cases the Omni tech can make up for it with longer range, more weapons, faster mechs. Even with this I still think Inner Sphere XL's should do a shutdown instead of insta boom. On Principle.

What ever happens if balance is achieved the Omni mech pilots will go nuts and it will take a while for them to adjust. Easy mode does that.

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 October 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Take 1 damage off every clan weapon and be done with it. Balance achieved. Topic closed.
I am only half joking, it very likely would blalance things out more than whats in game now.

The main balance problem is that the CERML is only 1 ton and very nearly as good as a 5 ton Large Laser. Thats completely unbalanced to make IS take 5 ton weapons to counter Clan 1 ton weapons.

I think the CERML needs to be 6 damage, 5 heat, 360m range

Instead of 7 damage, 6 heat, 405m range

But yeah knock off some range, knock off 1 damage, knock off some heat, and itd be pretty close to where it needs to be...

the other clan lasers need similar adjustments too... especially the pulse lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 05 October 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Johnny Z]

I would love the energy weapons to be the main balance problem. It isnt, its the gauss, energy weapons, streaks, srms, Omni XL. Everything.

Clans were legendary power creep on a legendary scale the likes of which no game has ever seen. Of course its everything because quite literally everything got power creeped all the way down to CASE and AMS ammo.

AMS ammo is one of the only things that was outright balanced so far. Not that long after Launch amid the mass exodus of Inner Sphere loyalists and the cry's of "its not the mech its the pilot" from CLan players. Quirks making up the rest of the effort.

Any true balance will be met with Omni mech pilots going nuts. Its a given. They have been holding onto easy mode this entire time like they are actually good pilots or something. They suck because of easy mode.

No decent pilot would even consider piloting an Omni mech. Thats isnt me being mad. Thats the truth.

Which is the reason, worste case scenario personally, they make Inner Sphere easy mode. Because then I couldnt pilot Inner Sphere mechs. Seriously if Inner Sphere became easy mode I would be out of this game at this point. Out of shere boredom.

More than likely this entire inbalance was cheap content anyway. Just like the original power creep on the board games was to sell more books. I didnt want to think that, but the entire inbalance has been left to long.

Streak Crows running up to lights at 110 kph and one or two shotting them without even aiming since Clans were released. Lets get real here. Its a joke. This game lost every single dedicated Inner Sphere light pilot without exception within the first two weeks. There were a few.

By the way, in the long run, the TT or lore arguements for this power creep are worthless. One for online gaming history books. Although its possible 10 v 12 was planned and was scrapped to avoid second class players it would have created which would have been another for the books. Surprising how many Clan players actually wanted that to be honest.

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 October 2015 - 03:44 PM.

[InspectorG]

MischiefSC, on 05 October 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

I'd rather the solution not be duration based. Damage/heat/range. Less about heat and more range and damage.

And cooldown?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 05 October 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

This game lost every single dedicated Inner Sphere light pilot without exception within the first two weeks. There were a few.

What.......I'm pretty all comp pilots were still piloting Firestarters until the Cheetah dropped, a Streakcrow meant sacrificing front line firepower for light deterrent (which meant your lights were losing trades).

You are right that Clans are OP in almost every aspect (except lurms, cuz lol), but lets cut back on the hyperbole.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 05 October 2015 - 03:48 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

What.......I'm pretty all comp pilots were still piloting Firestarters until the Cheetah dropped, a Streakcrow meant sacrificing front line firepower for light deterrent (which meant your lights were losing trades).

You are right that Clans are OP in almost every aspect (except lurms, cuz lol), but lets cut back on the hyperbole.

Yep balance isnt that bad at the moment aside from a few seriously messed up situation like the Streak Crow vrs lights and mediums and slow assaults. Anything Carrying a Inner Sphere XL is fairly easy to take with a Streak Crow. Also the Omni XL engine and a few other items.

Alot of my reply above was that the Clan player tune hasnt changed since before quirks or even before AMS ammo was balanced.

The CLan player has been saying its not the mech its the pilot since day one and backing up every inbalance in the game with 1000's of pages of trolling.

The Clan player tune on these forums wont change alot and will rise to an epic chorus on man baby, diaper filling, rage if balance is ever brought to this game.

And yes I think its all hilarious. I enjoy a challenge after all and in game aside from botters and cheats I have no complaints. Except maybe the Inner Sphere XL insta boom.

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 October 2015 - 04:02 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Johnny Z, on 05 October 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Yep balance isnt that bad at the moment aside from a few seriously messed up situation like the Streak Crow vrs lights and mediums and slow assaults. Anything Carrying a Inner Sphere XL is fairly easy to take with a Streak Crow. Also the Omni XL engine and a few other items.

Alot of my reply above was that the Clan player tune hasnt changed since before quirks or even before AMS ammo was balanced.

The CLan player has been saying its not the mech its the pilot since day one and backing up every inbalance in the game with 1000's of pages of trolling.

The Clan player tune on these forums wont change alot and will rise to an epic chorus on man baby, diaper filling, rage if balance is ever brought to this game.

And yes I think its all hilarious. I enjoy a challenge after all and in game aside from botters I have no complaints. Except maybe the Inner Sphere XL insta boom.

im a clan player and i often point out imbalances even going into WOT tirades to point out exactly point by point how ****** balance is.

[Johnny Z]

Mellifluer, on 05 October 2015 - 04:01 PM, said:

im a clan player and i often point out imbalances even going into WOT tirades to point out exactly point by point how ****** balance is.

Well I am being a mean Inner Sphere pilot at the moment. To try and make a point. Lots of great Omni mechs pilots and they deserved better than easy mode.

I even said before if I had been Clan pilot I may have looked stupid by now defending the OP Omni mechs.

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 October 2015 - 04:07 PM.

[SirNotlag]

The problem is the clan lasers are currently superior in every way aside from heat. they have better range, better damage. Hell even the damage per tick of their weapons is better than the IS meaning if it take you 0.3 seconds to turn away from laser vomit the clan will still have done more damage to the original component they were shooting at.

I don't really like the idea of just reducing their damage or range as that just makes their weapons work like the IS which reduces play variety for someone like me who plays both sides. I want the clan weapons to feel different from the IS ones when I'm firing them.

Personally be up for the C-er med to have a beam duration of 1.30 to bring the damage per tick in line with IS med laser
clan er large laser a beam duration of 1.55 to bring the damage per tick in line with IS ER large laser

the range of their pulse lasers should be brought back because the damage per tick is already lower than IS versions but they have 50% range over them and more total damage making them very over bearing.
Ex maybe 280m on clan med pulse lasers and 450m on clan large pulse lasers might make them more fair.

This also would make clan and IS lasers still feel very different when you use them. Pretty much I think the goal of balance would be if franken mechs ever became a thing clan players might consider bringing IS lasers due to reduced heat and precision damage, while IS might want to take some clan lasers for higher range and total damage. Just not everyone going to one side or the other because their weapons are the superior choice.

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 05 October 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

So, perhaps we can continue the discussion without the Manchild trolling.


What is the largest issue concerning the Clan lasers. Is it range, damage, or Damage/duration.

Only 2 IS lasers actually beat the Clans in Dam/tick, the LPL (by a fair margin) and the MPL (by a tiny margin). All others are either outright worse, or even with less damage overall (and you can't twist away instantly).

Range is big, as it translates into more damage, because you can shoot earlier.

Damage, is simply more damage, but ties into the second part.
Damage per Tick. Less damage you can twist, or the longer you need to stare.

I'm not a fan of increasing burn times very much, as with the cERLL the 1.5s duration is already pretty big. I'd rather touch damage down and leave durations in similar spots.

What is the largest issue? Range.

Why is it the largest issue? At the core, because those lasers simultaneously deal more damage. Range can offset a damage deficiency by allowing one to engage a target before its own weapons become available, as you say. So what happens when you give something both range and damage advantages? They can engage the target before it can bear down, and then continue to out-gun it once its weapons do come online.

Increased damage per tick and higher reasonably sustained DPS all play into generating more damage, feeding the range advantage. You dropping the damage to 6 would not solve much unless you keep the heat where it is, because even with the high heat the Clan lasers continues to dominate the Inner Sphere across the board. Who cares if it can't make three or four consecutive shots with a group of five or six if the target is mission-killed in two? Nobody worth listening to, that's who.

Lowering the range is where we should start. Increasing cool-down is what we should do next.

Let's look at the cERML:

I submit that 7 damage at 5.5 heat from 380 meters over 1.15 seconds with a 4.25 second cool-down is good...as long as the isML gets to deal 5 damage at 3 heat from 270 meters over 0.82 seconds with a 2.75 second cool-down. That lets the isML properly out-DPS the cERML within its bracket. They both offer the same damage per tick, but the IS option now actually runs cool enough that an IS 'Mech can reasonably sacrifice some DHS to get a faster engine in, letting it better close the distance under cover fire from larger 'Mechs with bigger, longer-ranged guns. The larger gap between shots from the cERML also helps, allowing room to maneuver.

At the same time, this change leaves some overhead to introduce the isERML with only minor changes. The cERML would have its heat reduced to 5, the isML will have its duration increased to 0.89, and the isERML will deal 5 damage at 4 heat from 420 meters over 0.89 seconds with a 4.5 second cool-down.

So now we have the cERML sitting in the middle in terms of DPS, flanked by the two flavors of isML. As a fairness precaution, the C-ERML at 420 meters is dealing the roughly the same damage at the same damage per tick as the isERML, but will fall off faster than the IS option from there (note, I think we can actually hit cERML duration to 1.2 seconds and it'll actually be a bit more fair than 1.15 seconds). The IS option, however, has inherently lower DPS; that means that if some doofus using a isERML boat tries to face-tank a cERML boat, he will lose. By the same token, if some doofus in a cERML boat tries to face-tank an isML boat, he will also lose in turn.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 05 October 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

So, perhaps we can continue the discussion without the Manchild trolling.


What is the largest issue concerning the Clan lasers. Is it range, damage, or Damage/duration.

Range & Damage.


The higher damage effectively allows either:

> the same damage as IS mechs for less tonnage

or

> more damage for similar tonnage.

EX:

6x MLAS vs. 6x CERMLAS
Same tonnage, but 12 extra damage at an extra 50% range

4x CERMLAS vs. 6x MLAS or vs. 3x LLAS

Again, similar damage/heat, but for much less tonnage and same/similar or greater range


The further range means that for every IS laser range bracket there are two potential clan options:

> either one that is shorter ranged, but massively more heat tonnage efficient (or both)

or

> there is one that is longer or similar range for less tonnage

There are a few exceptions, mostly based on pulse laser builds - but they tend to be extremely hot and fairly short ranged.


What I mean by two potential options for clan mechs to compete with IS laser brackets is


6x MLAS
Option 1: 4x CERMLAS - longer range, similar damage/heat profile, less tonnage
Option 2: 6x ERSLAS - shorter range (but not far off), but half the tonnage at a superior damage/heat profile

6x MPLs
Option 1: 4 to 5 CMPLs - longer range, similar or higher alpha, less tonnage
Option 2: 6x SPLs - shorter range (but not far off), but half tonnage and superior damage/heat profile

3x LLAS
Option 1: 2x CLPL - longer range, but similar damage/heat for less tonnage
Option 2: 4x CERMLAS - slightly shorter range, but similar damage/heat for less than one third the tonnage

Mcgral18, on 05 October 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

I'm not a fan of increasing burn times very much, as with the cERLL the 1.5s duration is already pretty big. I'd rather touch damage down and leave durations in similar spots.

I'm not a fan of it either. I think there is a usability limit before it just becomes unfun/stupid to utilize.


Unlike most people, my first order would be to buff IS lasers.

People can cry about power creep, but too many clan mechs rely too heavily on lasers to just start nerfing the hell out of everything.



1) Increase all IS lasers by roughly 10% range.

SLAS 135 > 160 (a little more than 10% for base usability)
SPL 110 > 135 (more than 10% for usability)
MLAS 270 > 300
MPL 220 > 250
LLAS 450 > 500
LPL 365 > 400
ERLLAS > no change (see below)


2) Slightly adjust some burn times down, instead of increase clan burn up

LLAS 1s > 0.9s
LPL 0.67s > 0.6s (old value)
ERLLAS 1.25 > 1.1


3) Decrease MLAS heat down to 3, SLAS heat down to 1

4) Adjust ghost heat limits

MLAS from 6 to 8
Large Laser and LPL from 3 to 4 (not ERLLAS)


5) Reduce CD times for select weapons

MLAS 3s > 2.25s to match CERSLAS
MPL 3s > 2.25s to match CSPL



I'd start there, and see how things play out.


If necessary, select Clan weapons could have slightly increase CD times, for example CERMLAS from 3.25 to 3.5, etc - or start tweaking some damage values down.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 05 October 2015 - 06:43 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 05 October 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Omni XL engine

Alright, this is bothering me, it is a Clan XL, Omni has nothing to do with the engine. A Clan Omnimech can have a standard engine and a Clan Battlemech can have a Clan XL.

[Johnny Z]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 05 October 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

Alright, this is bothering me, it is a Clan XL, Omni has nothing to do with the engine. A Clan Omnimech can have a standard engine and a Clan Battlemech can have a Clan XL.

For the most part I use Omni to describe Omni tech rather than Clan to make it clear its about balances the two techs rather than about factions or preferences. Occasionally I bring up Clans when they are trolling me or missing the point.

[Y E O N N E]

But there's no such thing as an Omni XL, there are just cXL and isXL. An Inner Sphere OmniMech with an XL dies on side torso loss like any old XL-equipped Inner Sphere BattleMech.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Johnny Z, on 05 October 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

For the most part I use Omni to describe Omni tech rather than Clan to make it clear its about balances the two techs rather than about factions or preferences. Occasionally I bring up Clans when they are trolling me or missing the point.

That made no sense, Omni "tech" still has nothing to do with engines. Omnimech technology in this case is just omnipods, that is it. The XL engine on a Nova is going to be no different than that on a Hunchback IIC. The only two tech bases are Clan and IS. Sorry but your nomenclature makes what you say confusing sometimes.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 October 2015 - 05:29 PM, said:

What is the largest issue? Range.

Why is it the largest issue? At the core, because those lasers simultaneously deal more damage. Range can offset a damage deficiency by allowing one to engage a target before its own weapons become available, as you say. So what happens when you give something both range and damage advantages? They can engage the target before it can bear down, and then continue to out-gun it once its weapons do come online.

Increased damage per tick and higher reasonably sustained DPS all play into generating more damage, feeding the range advantage. You dropping the damage to 6 would not solve much unless you keep the heat where it is, because even with the high heat the Clan lasers continues to dominate the Inner Sphere across the board. Who cares if it can't make three or four consecutive shots with a group of five or six if the target is mission-killed in two? Nobody worth listening to, that's who.

Lowering the range is where we should start. Increasing cool-down is what we should do next.

Let's look at the cERML:

I submit that 7 damage at 5.5 heat from 380 meters over 1.15 seconds with a 4.25 second cool-down is good...as long as the isML gets to deal 5 damage at 3 heat from 270 meters over 0.82 seconds with a 2.75 second cool-down. That lets the isML properly out-DPS the cERML within its bracket. They both offer the same damage per tick, but the IS option now actually runs cool enough that an IS 'Mech can reasonably sacrifice some DHS to get a faster engine in, letting it better close the distance under cover fire from larger 'Mechs with bigger, longer-ranged guns. The larger gap between shots from the cERML also helps, allowing room to maneuver.

At the same time, this change leaves some overhead to introduce the isERML with only minor changes. The cERML would have its heat reduced to 5, the isML will have its duration increased to 0.89, and the isERML will deal 5 damage at 4 heat from 420 meters over 0.89 seconds with a 4.5 second cool-down.

So now we have the cERML sitting in the middle in terms of DPS, flanked by the two flavors of isML. As a fairness precaution, the C-ERML at 420 meters is dealing the roughly the same damage at the same damage per tick as the isERML, but will fall off faster than the IS option from there (note, I think we can actually hit cERML duration to 1.2 seconds and it'll actually be a bit more fair than 1.15 seconds). The IS option, however, has inherently lower DPS; that means that if some doofus using a isERML boat tries to face-tank a cERML boat, he will lose. By the same token, if some doofus in a cERML boat tries to face-tank an isML boat, he will also lose in turn.

You don't want too many buffs, on the other hand. Power Creep and all that. 0.82s is nearly 20% less burn time than it had last year.
Range, I can get behind 300M (but that makes SRMs sad...another topic)

Small Lasers are the ones I have no problem power creeping the heck out of. Cooldown, duration or damage. Sub 200M weapons need to be good, like SRMs should be.


Cooldown nerfs is one way to go about it, but doesn't stop the instagib-alphas which are popular (and heat is the limiter after 3 alphas anyway on the big ones, as you say). Bringing the damage down means it might take another alpha to kill. Decreasing the Dam/tick means you can spread it more easily.


360M should be enough for the cERML, although buffing the isML to 300 would be drastic together, having very similar range profiles (and with quirks, isMLs nearly outranging the cERMLs, 390 VS 405 for the BJ1x).

Then again, with these changes, quirks would ideally be minimized and other things adjusted to bridge faction balance. Things like Awesome and the Myth Lynx, Com, Urbie and LOLcust would naturally require some, but likely more armour oriented VS firepower.

[Y E O N N E]

Mcgral18, on 05 October 2015 - 09:23 PM, said:

You don't want too many buffs, on the other hand. Power Creep and all that. 0.82s is nearly 20% less burn time than it had last year.
Range, I can get behind 300M (but that makes SRMs sad...another topic)

Small Lasers are the ones I have no problem power creeping the heck out of. Cooldown, duration or damage. Sub 200M weapons need to be good, like SRMs should be.


Cooldown nerfs is one way to go about it, but doesn't stop the instagib-alphas which are popular (and heat is the limiter after 3 alphas anyway on the big ones, as you say). Bringing the damage down means it might take another alpha to kill. Decreasing the Dam/tick means you can spread it more easily.


360M should be enough for the cERML, although buffing the isML to 300 would be drastic together, having very similar range profiles (and with quirks, isMLs nearly outranging the cERMLs, 390 VS 405 for the BJ1x).

Then again, with these changes, quirks would ideally be minimized and other things adjusted to bridge faction balance. Things like Awesome and the Myth Lynx, Com, Urbie and LOLcust would naturally require some, but likely more armour oriented VS firepower.

I only dropped it to 0.82 seconds to keep damage per tick in line with the cERML in the absence of an isERML. I would much rather keep it at 0.89 seconds, since I believe lasers in general have burn times that are erring on the side of being too short. Obviously, the cERLL and isERLL don't really need a duration nerf, but I think all of the other ones do. The isML is probably the baseline for a good burn that isn't overly short or overly damaging per tick at 0.9 seconds. The cERML ought to be brought in line with that by increasing its duration to 1.25 seconds. The reason I did not do that, is because if we introduce an isERML later that has a range of 420 meters, then the cERML is going to be doing 5 damage at that range with a dramatically disadvantaged amount per tick...which in all honestly might actually be balanced given damage superiority below 420 meters, but I was being cautious.

Similarly, the cERML gets 380 meters because total damage with the drop-off is equivalent to an isERML at 420 meters. Again, being cautious here.

I think the isML is more comparable to the cSPL than it is to the cERML. Buffing it to 300 meters would be a stop-gap fix until isERML are introduced, and I think we can do better. I think if we make it cold and fast, it will become a lot more useful across the board. It should have worse DPS than a cSPL, but more than a cERML. Its damage-to-heat ratio should follow a similar trend.

Longer cool-downs won't fix the gigaspike, you are right, but I feel that reducing the total damage potential per laser pulls too much away from the Clan flavor. While it's not as easy as an XML edit (I think), I would much rather get PGI to lower heat caps and increase dissipation to put a clamp down on that. Alternatively, I would rather jack up heat across the board to stop it or, as an absolute last resort, use ghost heat.

Total agreement about buffing the crap out of small lasers. They've needed it for a long time, because they are all risk and no reward.

You might be interested in my finished table. Unless there's a glaring fault and somebody who can demonstrate an understanding of the game can actually justify it, I'm done messing with the lasers, I strongly believe this table is where lasers ought to fall, and only minor tweaks after testing would be required to even things out:



Note 1: All of the Clan Large-class lasers are out-liers; getting them in-line with the rest would require doing something ridiculous (cERLL and cHLL) or reducing the damage (cLPL, which I would consider but I want to try it as it is here first). The thing throwing them off is actually their tonnage/slot requirements. They offer extreme advantages for how much they cost in resources.

Note 2: cERSL might still be slightly good for what it is, but the Small and Short-range class-spaces are crowded with options that are better on both sides. Solution would be raise heat to 3.

Note 3: Flamers would also deal 1 HPS to the target, but as this is a laser table, that behavior is unaccounted for; the weights are also wrong for a flamer, but whatever.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 05 October 2015 - 10:13 PM.