56 replies to this topic

[Jabilac]

I would love to see ammo amounts increased but I think the bigger problem is the actual weight of the AC's themselves. 6 tons for an AC2 is crazy. 6 tons for the gun then another 3 tons for ammo. 9 tons total for a crap weapon is crap. AC5 is a little too heavy imo should be more like 6-7 tons. AC10 should be 10 tons and AC20 should stay 14.

[TheArisen]

+1, I completely agree.

[LordNothing]

i wouldnt mind having all around more ammo. unfortunately i see a few issues.

first off the ac10 ammo increase was meant to buff a weapon everyone (erroniously imho) though was up. so you would need to do something to the ac10 to compensate, say giving it a bit of a fire rate buff or a bit more range.

as far as lbx auto cannons go my biggest complaint is that the pellet count is really low. i dont like shooting the weapon at a target at the end of its so called effective range, and only land 2 pellets. more pellets would increase the spread and give a higher chance that more pellets would hit. of course the pellets themselves would be reduced in damage.

in addition i would also reduce the spread (% from current value).

gun...pellets...damage/pellet....reduction in spread
lb2....10..........0.2....................0%
lb5....20..........0.25..................5%
lb10..28..........0.36..................15%
lb20..40..........0.5....................20%

the other thing i would do is modify the damage at range curve. damage is already reduced at range due to weapon spread. this then stacks with any reduction in damage due to being fired beyond optimal range. i would either extend the optimal range slightly and have a more abrupt falloff in damage. or i would bring in the optimal range and double the maximum range to give it a more gradual falloff. you would be able to hit targets at more extreme range but with much less damage. you could do one way for clan and the other for is to add a bit of diversity. i would also give it a bit of a point blank buff like have the damage factor ramp down from 1.25 to 1 over the first 50 meters. make it a brawlers dream.

other things i would do for ballistics is up mgs to 0.9 damage. clan gauss feels about right where it is, but i would take the is gauss ammo up to 12 rounds/ton (180 dmg/ton), because is gauss is really heavy. also im not too sure i like the clan ac/uac2 being single shot. it just feels too much like the is version. i would like it a 10 round clip with shells doing 0.2 damage and a very tiny cooldown for the ac, 8 rounds doing 0.25 damage in a faster burst with a slightly longer cool down for the uac.

Edited by LordNothing, 29 September 2015 - 11:53 AM.

[Jman5]

FupDup, on 29 September 2015 - 10:20 AM, said:

I've already debunked the heat boogeyman.

A mech with 10 DHS and 2 AC/2 can fire continuously for 2 minutes and 5 seconds until it overheats: 2 AC/2 Heat Tester

With 10 DHS and 3 AC/2, you can fire for 32 seconds: 3 AC/2 Heat Tester

If you add more DHS, you can go even longer than that.

Having low heat doesn't kill people, damage kills people. Low heat can sometimes allow you to deal more of that damage (e.g. Gauss Rifle), but having microscopic damage invalidates any amount of heat you save. Machine Guns generate ZERO heat, and they're still pretty pooptastic.

Even if you made the AC/2 generate zero heat itself, it would not be competitive and would be outclassed by the majority of other guns in Puglandia.

You shouldn't use smurfies for things like heat testing because they are inaccurate. Get a stop watch and build a 2H with 2 ac/2 and you're going to get about 1 minute at best for 2 and 22 seconds for 3 on a heat neutral map like Canyon.

Plus the scenario you're creating is contrived because your build is nothing but two AC/2 and 10 free true DHS. Even a 40 ton Cicada could fit 2 AC/2s and a 250 engine. Replace those AC/2 with other ballistics of similar tonnage and you go from 22 seconds to infinite. The heat becomes an issue when you're building something bigger than 35 tons with reasonable firepower like 2 ac/2 and a few medium lasers.

Either way I think the solution that you and I can both agree on would be for the developers to just give us an ac/2 cooldown module like all the other weapons get. That would put it close to the number you were suggesting.

[Sarlic]

I think LBX should get less spread aswell. One of my Orions got a LBX spread quirk.

If we talk about ballistics.

Edited by Sarlic, 29 September 2015 - 11:48 AM.

[generalazure]

I approve of everything the OP said, which probably means the devs will ignore it and bring back ac2 ghost heat instead.

[BigBenn]

The best improvement to ballistics that can be had is a substantial increase to velocities. Period.

The second best improvement would be to increase ammo/ton, with perhaps a 25-50% gain all across the board.

The weight is about right and the heat per shot is about right, imo.

Also, I think PGI could very do better with the quirks to certain mechs in regards to ballistics. The Jagermech and Blackjack should get a major boost in AC 2/5 velocity simply due to the barrel length represented. I'm not talking a piddly 5-15%, I'm talking 30-50%. There are other examples as well. But if the model representation SHOWS a longer barrel then allow the quirks to go with it.

[FupDup]

Jman5, on 29 September 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

You shouldn't use smurfies for things like heat testing because they are inaccurate. Get a stop watch and build a 2H with 2 ac/2 and you're going to get about 1 minute at best for 2 and 22 seconds for 3 on a heat neutral map like Canyon.

Plus the scenario you're creating is contrived because your build is nothing but two AC/2 and 10 free true DHS. Even a 40 ton Cicada could fit 2 AC/2s and a 250 engine. Replace those AC/2 with other ballistics of similar tonnage and you go from 22 seconds to infinite. The heat becomes an issue when you're building something bigger than 35 tons with reasonable firepower like 2 ac/2 and a few medium lasers.

Either way I think the solution that you and I can both agree on would be for the developers to just give us an ac/2 cooldown module like all the other weapons get. That would put it close to the number you were suggesting.

For practical in-game applications, I actually used a 3 AC/2 Shad 2H in spurts during the mech's release and several times afterwards to test each of the various AC/2 nerfs (AC/2 hasn't been touched since then). It did admittedly have 2 extra DHS in the engine, but overall the heat wasn't *that* big of a deal (I even had a backup Medium Laser in there). It was an issue periodically, but more often the issue was not being able to win trades effectively against mechs whose damage is more frontloaded (which even includes laser builds in this case). That, and the fragile IS XL engine combined with facetime requirements...

Do keep in mind I'm not saying to never reduce the gun's heat, I'm saying that a heat reduction all by itself won't really make the gun become suddenly effective. In such a case I might run a few matches with my old Shaddy Hawk, and then strip off those guns afterwards to let them begin amassing dust once more.

Cooldown module is the bare minimum just for fairness across the board (nearly everything else has one), but again I still think that the base cooldown should be lowered a bit because only dealing 2 points of upfront damage is sadface. Tiny amounts of upfront damage should be compensated with high damage over time/DPS; this also applies to things like the MG (WTB MG damage un-nerf ).

Edited by FupDup, 29 September 2015 - 01:06 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Maybe if we get this up to 20 pages of likes the devs will notice.

[Escef]

FupDup, on 29 September 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

For practical in-game applications, I actually used a 3 AC/2 Shad 2H in spurts during the mech's release and several times afterwards to test each of the various AC/2 nerfs (AC/2 hasn't been touched since then). It did admittedly have 2 extra DHS in the engine, but overall the heat wasn't *that* big of a deal (I even had a backup Medium Laser in there). It was an issue periodically, but more often the issue was not being able to win trades effectively against mechs whose damage is more frontloaded (which even includes laser builds in this case). That, and the fragile IS XL engine combined with facetime requirements...

You shouldn't be attempting to trade fire in a build like that. Let someone else grab attention and hit the people he's trading fire with. That's a support build, not a main liner.

[Nori Silverrage]

Excellent ideas. Please PGI!?

[Khobai]

Quote

If the AC/2 had some kind of utility other than DPS, I might be able to understand that. However, DPS is literally the only thing the gun does.

anti-aircraft guns

clearly we need npc aircraft in the game to justify the AC2's existence

[TheArisen]

LBX & AC2 could use the more help than just more ammo. For the LBX, I think adding more pellets, tightening the spread or improving it's crit-ability are needed. No one uses it unless the mech has heavy quirks for it.

I'd experiment with a AC2 cooldown module, it needs to be able to deliver it's DMG quicker because it has no up front punch. If the cooldown module proved insufficient, then maybe the base cooldown should be improved. I'm just thinking eventually, the IS will get uac2s & even rac2s, those weapons'll need a place as well.

[Cyborne Elemental]

AC-2's need their range back too though.

Thats the issue at hand, they need either/or. not both

If they stay at their current range, heat needs to go down.
If they get their old range back, heat can stay where it is.

Its a matter of what their intended purpose is, and as is, they're a terribly inefficient way of doing long range sniping, for something as heavy as they are in both ammo and heatgen for dps.

C-LPL @ 6 tons is more efficient right out of the box, 1 IS-ERLL are more efficient right out of the box in weight equivalency alone.
1 AC-2 with minimum 1 ton of ammo, vs 1 IS ERLL + 2 DHS, ERLL will win that fight every time.

[Homeskilit]

Definitely viable ideas that should be tested, the great thing about the numbers game is you can keep tweaking them until you get the right balance.

[Funkin Disher]

Been voting for 1 ton = 200 damage for months, so obviously i'm fully behind this.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 29 September 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

anti-aircraft guns

clearly we need npc aircraft in the game to justify the AC2's existence

Or I'll just shoot down aircraft with hitscan lasers.

[Khobai]

Quote

Or I'll just shoot down aircraft with hitscan lasers.

they have reflective armor

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Someone whining about ballistics not being good enough.

I suggest trying LRMs... you'll come back loving how great ballistics are.

On second thought, do it... make ballistics 200 damage a ton.

Then make LRMs 200 damage a ton.... and actually make all of the missles hit the target if the lock is held, that way you're not carrying a 20 damage weapon that does 14 on a "full" hit.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 29 September 2015 - 04:26 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 29 September 2015 - 04:19 PM, said:

they have reflective armor

Pics or it didn't happen.