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Firing Line Vs Death Ball

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#81 Khobai

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 04:38 PM

Quote

sorry but to me that looks like blue is going to wreck red's ****.


this and in real life blue did wreck red's ****

the only reason napoleon lost is because he tried to invade russia in winter. that is the only reason.

#82 InspectorG

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 04:39 PM

View PostMazzyplz, on 29 September 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

both tactics are good, in a place where firing line cannot be placed effectively, the death train will run over you!!!

but yes; firing line is also perfectly good - master it.

do like i do - remember toto's advice:







Damn, beat me to it!

#83 InspectorG

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 04:44 PM

View PostHomeskilit, on 29 September 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

...


Couple things:

Solo or Group?

Team scale or Lance?

And for Solo, just how do you keep a Firing Line from turning into a Conga Line?

Murderballs work because they concentrate firepower and force the enemy to choose between more available targets.
Flanking units can move around said enemy 'ball' and from attacks from off-angles assuming they meet no resistance.
And on average, that is about the most coordination you will get from a Pug.

#84 fat4eyes

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 05:26 PM

Aw man I'm late to the party. But since the OP had such a nice picture I made one of my own:

Posted Image

A firing line has more frontage and can bring a lot more weapons to bear, but is spread out and can really only use that firepower in one direction. A deathball has less frontage and can't fire as many weapons as once, but is a compact body and can redeploy in order a lot faster than a firing line.

I prefer deathball (with a bit of flanking) tactics myself because it's a lot more mobile and flexible than a firing line, but I do respect the power of a properly alert and competently led firing line.

#85 Melon Lord

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 05:28 PM

View PostRadbane, on 29 September 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

That's because there's 110 Blue troops against 28 reds on that image. The blue should wreck the reds.

Let's put it in a 12v12 perspective


O
O
O
O
O..................OO
O...............OOOO
O...............OOOO
O..................OO
O
O
O
O


Edited because all my spaces were erased


Ok people need to stop saying blue will murder red, did no one see this post? In the OP there was like a million blues, look at the 12 x 12 example.

The first two "blues" are instant killed by 12 mechs firing at once. Second row of blues start firing first at reds and maybe take down 2 if they focus fire, then they're all killed since the 4 were being shot at by 12 mechs. So now it's 10 almost unscathed reds vs 4 untouched blues, followed by 2 untouched blues once the four in front of them are promptly murdered.

Not saying firing line should replace the deathball in MWO, but the whole murderball will murder anything talk was getting to me.

#86 Homeskilit

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 05:32 PM

View Postfat4eyes, on 30 September 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

Aw man I'm late to the party. But since the OP had such a nice picture I made one of my own:

Posted Image

A firing line has more frontage and can bring a lot more weapons to bear, but is spread out and can really only use that firepower in one direction. A deathball has less frontage and can't fire as many weapons as once, but is a compact body and can redeploy in order a lot faster than a firing line.

I prefer deathball (with a bit of flanking) tactics myself because it's a lot more mobile and flexible than a firing line, but I do respect the power of a properly alert and competently led firing line.


In this case as the DB moves to the East, the FLs Western side should be swinging south. The Line is not a fixed position, it can move in also, be it forwards, retreating, or swinging side to side. Hell the Line can even form its own DB and charge forward if the opportunity presents itself.

#87 fat4eyes

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 05:40 PM

View PostHomeskilit, on 30 September 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:


In this case as the DB moves to the East, the FLs Western side should be swinging south. The Line is not a fixed position, it can move in also, be it forwards, retreating, or swinging side to side. Hell the Line can even form its own DB and charge forward if the opportunity presents itself.


But by the time the red's far flank is in position the blues would have seriously damaged or even destroyed the red's near flank. This becomes worse if the red far flank isn't aware of blue's movements or that their teammates are being attacked (which happens a lot in PUGS). All things being equal, if a deathball is able to get on the flank of a firing line, the firing line will disintegrate and be defeated in detail.

Of course terrain plays into this as well. If the deathball tries to flank in full view of the firing line, they'll get slaughtered. But if there's cover that will shield the deathball from the firing line while it redeploys, it will roll the firing line.

#88 Mazzyplz

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 06:00 PM

well this is what i was trying to get to; what really gets to me is the question formulated in the topic title;

it's nonsensical; it's like asking spoon or crowbar?
well???? what you need it for??

and this is not the only thread that makes this false dichotomy
this is another thread with the same question made almost at the same time as this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...ar/page__st__20
"sit&shoot vs nascar"

as if what you wanted to do was pick a tactic and stick to it from the beginning and not even consider the map you're in.

exactly what you don't want to do; posing this question is a red flag for dunning kruger effect

all i am saying is that there is a lot of misconception that i notice not only in this thread but others like it

#89 Khobai

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 06:13 PM

Quote

the firing line is onlyy marginally effective.. in world war 2 the Germans showed how to effectively destroy the death ball with minimal casualties.. it's called the ambush.. hence, the Battle of Kassarine Pass


um they had friggin machine guns then

theres really no equivalent to the machine gun in MWO. theres no weapon that lets a single mech mow down an entire company of enemy mechs by themselves.

Edited by Khobai, 30 September 2015 - 06:15 PM.


#90 Homeskilit

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 06:17 PM

View PostMazzyplz, on 30 September 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

well this is what i was trying to get to; what really gets to me is the question formulated in the topic title;

it's nonsensical; it's like asking spoon or crowbar?
well???? what you need it for??

and this is not the only thread that makes this false dichotomy
this is another thread with the same question made almost at the same time as this thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...ar/page__st__20
"sit&shoot vs nascar"

as if what you wanted to do was pick a tactic and stick to it from the beginning and not even consider the map you're in.

exactly what you don't want to do; posing this question is a red flag for dunning kruger effect

all i am saying is that there is a lot of misconception that i notice not only in this thread but others like it


If this is what you got from my post then maybe I have presented it wrong. The Death Ball is THE prevailing tactic used in this game. In fact it is the only tactic I ever see used (I solo que so I do not get to see what happens in group que games). This was an attempt to show people a tactic that can beat the Death Ball. Yes it can fail and yes other tactics can beat the DB also, this was an attempt to raise awareness and educated those who are not familiar with said tactics.

The thread you linked was what actually prompted me to create this thread. Rather then have my post buried in another thread I opted to create a new discussion for it.

It is frustrating when people just read the initial post and then reply because they skip over a lot of additional information that has been presented and raise questions and issues that have already been addressed.

#91 Idealsuspect

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 09:45 PM

View PostAlphaToaster, on 30 September 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:


If red team in the image is clans, Gauss don't overheat.... :ph34r:


If reds are only gauss snipers ( clan or IS ) in fact blues are doing the best move possible ( specially if they have UAC5 vomit ) ...

#92 AssaultPig

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Posted 30 September 2015 - 10:06 PM

I generally think that a static firing line is a losing move most of the time (especially in pubs) because you're just too vulnerable to being flanked; if the rush hits you at the wrong angle (or even if a couple lights have gotten around behind you) you're in trouble (and not in a very flexible position.) Artillery is also bonkers for trading against an opponent you know is standing still.

There's a couple maps that have natural places to put a firing line (alpine says hello, and tourmaline if you can get the team to stake out that one corner in the back), but on most it's not a great idea.

I do think that most people underestimate the need to be trading their armor though; if the enemy pushes you need to be engaging and sharing that damage, not fading and leaving 1-2 mechs to take it all.

View PostHomeskilit, on 30 September 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:


If this is what you got from my post then maybe I have presented it wrong. The Death Ball is THE prevailing tactic used in this game. In fact it is the only tactic I ever see used (I solo que so I do not get to see what happens in group que games). This was an attempt to show people a tactic that can beat the Death Ball. Yes it can fail and yes other tactics can beat the DB also, this was an attempt to raise awareness and educated those who are not familiar with said tactics.

The thread you linked was what actually prompted me to create this thread. Rather then have my post buried in another thread I opted to create a new discussion for it.

It is frustrating when people just read the initial post and then reply because they skip over a lot of additional information that has been presented and raise questions and issues that have already been addressed.


you fundamentally cannot escape the basic problem of firing line vs. deathball: firing line is hard to organize, while deathball is easy. That alone is gonna make deathball the dominate strategy in pubs, even if it's not the optimal one.





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