46 replies to this topic

[1Urza1]

the 4 PPC/5PPC (the 3F with 5PPC wasnt a joke...) was a good choice in a time before came the DmG cap...
4 PPC at 60m was put out a reduced dmg (nose to nose was zero)...
the Ghost heat and the damg Cap at 90m (min range)... in Tabletop the min Range exist to but it have a chance to deal dmg... lv 3 rules say you can switch off the Fieldinhibitor to use the full dmg without min Range but with a chance to broke the weapon in an explosion that put a lot of dmg to the structure ( i.m.o. 10 dmg)....

Jump sniping (i.m.o. the only one thing to beat a clanner 1 vs 1) is sladghammered by pgis nervhammer... (i have up to 20 mechs they are useless )


AC 20 equal as a nice bowling day... and srm without Artemis is a closed range weapon with effektiv range till 100m (the spread at 270m is a joke)

PGIs nervhammer kicks all...

the big Failure was try to take some BT TT originals and hold it (IS XL is a glory suicide for a lot of usefull mechs)
...

PGI dont listen on every gamer...
in the german comunity we try to gain a Battlevalue for the Matchmaker...

Tonnage dosnt give an overwiev of the Mechs Force in Firerpower, heat degredation capacity and movement...
there is a reason that the Tabletopgames are limited by the battlevalue not the tonnage... (stock nova 2400+ BV MAR 5D 1500 BV... )

i think thats the better way to have fun in this game...

(sry com... Im affraid my english is a bit rusty)... so als Deutscher mit wenig kontakt zur englischen Comm ist es echt schwer

have a nice day

Edited by 1Urza1, 02 October 2015 - 06:09 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Khobai, on 02 October 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

Only the ERPPC needs more velocity. The ERPPC is meant to be a long-range weapon yet its low projectile velocity prevents it from being used as a long-range weapon.



NO. 2400m/s are you nuts? Thats faster than Gauss. And why shouldnt the CERPPC be just as good at sniping as the ISERPPC? That makes no sense. Instead the higher damage of the CERPPC should be balanced out by higher heat.

Heres what needs to happen:

1) CERPPC and ISERPPC max ranges reduced from 810m -> 690m. 810m is obscene and makes these weapons do WAY too much pinpoint damage at long range. 690m is their canon tabletop range and would be much better balanced in MWO.

2) ISERPPC and CERPPC velocity increased from 1200m/s -> 1500m/s projectile speed. ISPPC velocity remains at 1100m/s because its fine where it is (the regular PPC is NOT a sniping weapon afterall).

3) CERPPC stays at 15 heat. ISERPPC gets lowered to 12.5 heat because the ISERPPC does less damage.

4) ISPPC either gets its minimum range removed completely -OR- gets its damage dropoff changed back to linear damage dropoff (so 5 damage at 45m, 2.5 damage at 22.5m, etc...)

5) Give all PPCs a HUD disruption ability that has a % chance of disrupting the sensor targeting of whatever mech they hit for 1-2 seconds. This would give PPCs a unique ability that no other weapon has.

Thats how you fix PPCs for the most part.

The ERPPC has a longer optimal range than the Gauss, why shouldn't it be faster?

Why take the isPPC at that point? 2.5 heat?

[InspectorG]

ugrakarma, on 01 October 2015 - 11:48 AM, said:

Anyways like I said these are my views on the issue of balance and are open for debate - these are not set in stone. The experience in the game varies for different people and levels of play. I just want different playstyles to be a bit more on par with the meta we have now. Meta too stronk and too boring.

ALSO:

10 true Dubs for Lights.

Agility/mobility nerf for Heavy/Assault to give parity to Mediums/Lights. Current unquirked(pod) Dire should be the basis. Outlier mechs (Summoner Gargles Quickdraw) can keep mobility in relation to lower firepower.

I say Equalize C-XL and IS-XL = no death on ST loss, STD engines get 50 point structure buff. Buff ammo in relation.

Lack of Roles. Only Role is do big damages.

Lack of 'Infotech'. I prefer a Map/RADAR/Comms solution but if Locks is the way they go a 50% damage nerf for firing unlocked may work. Buff ammo in relation. Could be where LRMs gain value.
Has to address coordinated firepower, not 1 vs 1 firepower.

Balance choice Boating Pods with a steep structure Nerf. Give lower hardpoint Pods value. Choice Meta Pods that boat 4+ E carry 35%-50% structure nerf.

[nehebkau]

The ONLY clan balance issue was Clan XL engines! If PGI would get rid of clan XL and let clanners choose IS XL or STD engines the game would balance nicely.

[Mcgral18]

nehebkau, on 02 October 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

The ONLY clan balance issue was Clan XL engines! If PGI would get rid of clan XL and let clanners choose IS XL or STD engines the game would balance nicely.

No, it wouldn't.

Far more than that is needed.

[Khobai]

Quote

The ERPPC has a longer optimal range than the Gauss, why shouldn't it be faster?

First off the ERPPC is an energy weapon. You can afford to miss more with it. So it shouldnt have higher velocity than Gauss. Especially since ERPPCs can snapshot while Gauss cant due to the chargeup. The fact ERPPCs can snapshot is why their velocity should NEVER exceed 1500m/s.

Secondly the ERPPC max range should only be 690m not 810m. 810m is insane and part of the reason the ERPPC was so overpowered before since it did massive damage at ranges exceeding gauss. 690m is the proper range for ERPPCs in battletech. And 690m is where ERPPCs need to be if you bump up their projectile velocity.

Quote

Why take the isPPC at that point? 2.5 heat?

Because the PPC should have a faster cooldown than the ERPPC. Thats one of the reasons youd choose the PPC over the ERPPC. 4s for PPC and 5s for ERPPC would probably be good. PPCs should be better at short and medium range while ERPPCs should be better at long range (also the reason why the PPC minimum range either needs to be removed or changed back to linear dropoff)

Edited by Khobai, 02 October 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[GeneralArmchair]

The way to balance jump sniping isn't to fiddle with weapons. The way to balance jump sniping is to fix the outlandish heavy gravity in this game.


Right now the average map has gravity more than 3x Earth's. Jump jets used to be stronger to overcome this gravity, but they were sledgehammer nerfed to try and prevent any mech short of lights with a billion jets from jumping.

But that was the wrong approach. It wasn't the strong jump jets that enabled poptarting to become oppressive. It was the high gravity that quickly pulled poptarts back down to safety.


Look at MWLL where poptarting is present but not dominant. Their maps average around 1g. The result of the normal gravity is that the jumping mechs have more hang time and are significantly more vulnerable to return fire. It is useful for attacking from a novel angle, but poptarting excessively is just a good way to expose yourself to retaliation from half the enemy team.


Fixing MWO'S gravity would be a win all around because it would weaken jump sniping (without effectively banning the tactic from heavy and assault mechs like the Highlander that are famous for jumping) while also buffing the non-combat movement utility of jump jets.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 02 October 2015 - 05:24 AM, said:

Only the ERPPC needs more velocity. The ERPPC is meant to be a long-range weapon yet its low projectile velocity prevents it from being used as a long-range weapon.



NO. 2400m/s are you nuts? Thats faster than Gauss. And why shouldnt the CERPPC be just as good at sniping as the ISERPPC? That makes no sense. Instead the higher damage of the CERPPC should be balanced out by higher heat.

Heres what needs to happen:

1) CERPPC and ISERPPC max ranges reduced from 810m -> 690m. 810m is obscene and makes these weapons do WAY too much pinpoint damage at long range. 690m is their canon tabletop range and would be much better balanced in MWO.

2) ISERPPC and CERPPC velocity increased from 1200m/s -> 1500m/s projectile speed. ISPPC velocity remains at 1100m/s because its fine where it is (the regular PPC is NOT a sniping weapon afterall).

3) CERPPC stays at 15 heat. ISERPPC gets lowered to 12.5 heat because the ISERPPC does less damage.

4) ISPPC either gets its minimum range removed completely -OR- gets its damage dropoff changed back to linear damage dropoff (so 5 damage at 45m, 2.5 damage at 22.5m, etc...). ISPPC should probably have a faster cooldown than the ERPPC too.

5) Give all PPCs a HUD disruption ability that has a % chance of disrupting the sensor targeting of whatever mech they hit for 1-2 seconds. This would give PPCs a unique ability that no other weapon has.

Thats how you fix PPCs for the most part.

I don't want to listen to you in this manner because you supported PPCs being nerfed into the ground.

I believe the title of the thread you started was something like:

"Why the road to balance in MWO ends in a PPC nerf" or something along those lines.

Well, you got your wish, PPCs got nerfed into oblivion because that 10 ppfld for 10 heat was so OP, and lo and behold, the game still isn't balanced.

[GeneralArmchair]

Mcgral18, on 02 October 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

No, it wouldn't.

Far more than that is needed.

Quoted for truth, but it would be a good starting point.

[Weeny Machine]

Brawling:
Is more or less dead. So much risk and so little reward.
The problem is also that you most likely get hit while closing the range and if the target is not alone people usually switch to the easiest target (the brawler) and will focus him.
Too bad that lasers aren't really bad at brawling either...


SRMs
They are not only problematic because of the wide spread but also because of velocity and ammo. Add to that that at least 1/3-1/2 of the damage doesn't seem to register (at least not when I play my Huggin or Oxide) then the weapons are pretty much trash.

PPCs/ACs
Good luck hitting something with them on long range which isn't moving in a very predictable way. And of course missing comes at a much higher price on top of that: either you build up a good amount of heat or spend precious ammo.



Wow, what a surprise that people prefer lasers which...
* are hitscan weapons
* have (partially) frontloaded damage
* register rather reliably
* have no velocity
* have no ammo dependency
* have good range
* have a reasonable burn-time
* have reasonable weight and heat
* have no minimum range (say hi to IS PPC)

Edited by Bush Hopper, 02 October 2015 - 11:11 PM.

[xe N on]

Very nice analysis.

[Weeny Machine]

Mcgral18, on 02 October 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

No, it wouldn't.

Far more than that is needed.

but he is right...he used bigger letters than you

[H I A S]

Can a Moderator pin this Thread?

[JP456]

Thanks for this topic. After playing a lot over two years with 4-5 friends, all of them quit playing like half a year ago. Balancing has issues and many games just feel the same. I'm concerned that the Origin IIC Mechs will make it even worse. If PGI could increase the number of available effective tactics/playstyles and maybe add something like a stock mech mode, that might be helpful as well.

[Want0n]

Pretty much nailed it UK.

O7 WDMC

Not holding my breath for any changes to come of this though : (

[Khobai]

Quote

I don't want to listen to you in this manner because you supported PPCs being nerfed into the ground.

I believe the title of the thread you started was something like:

"Why the road to balance in MWO ends in a PPC nerf" or something along those lines.

Well, you got your wish, PPCs got nerfed into oblivion because that 10 ppfld for 10 heat was so OP, and lo and behold, the game still isn't balanced.

PPCs were overpowered. Thats why EVERYONE was using them to the exclusion of all other weapons besides Gauss (because it complemented PPCs perfectly). Of course I supported a PPC nerf. It wouldve been irresponsible as a player of the game to NOT support a PPC nerf at the time because they were outrageously overpowered weapons.

However PGI did not implement the nerfs I suggested. They implemented a series of ill-conceived overnerfs that werent even close to my suggestions. So you can hardly blame me.

And no I didnt get my wish. My wish was for PPCs to become a useful yet balanced weapon. My wish was not for PPCs to be rendered useless by overnerfing. And my wish wasnt for Gauss to escape getting nerfed by implementation of a goofball chargeup mechanic that completely failed to address why Gauss was unbalanced.

So I really dont know what youre talking about.

Quote

Look at MWLL where poptarting is present but not dominant.

MWLL also had infinite respawns though. So players werent paralyzed by the constant fear of dying. When you die in MWO it can cause an avalanche effect that makes your whole team lose. Permadeath in MWO has a PROFOUND effect on why players play the game so differently. Tactics like poptarting and long-range poking became more prevelant in MWO than they ever were in MWLL because saying alive is much more crucial.

Believe me if you only had one life in MWLL they would be employing cheesy tactics like poptarting just as much as in MWO. So yeah thats why you dont see that crap in MWLL as much. It has nothing to do with gravity being weaker. And everything to do with the fact that staying alive isnt as important in MWLL as it is in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 04 October 2015 - 03:55 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Khobai, on 04 October 2015 - 03:34 AM, said:

PPCs were overpowered. Thats why EVERYONE was using them to the exclusion of all other weapons besides Gauss (because it complemented PPCs perfectly). Of course I supported a PPC nerf. It wouldve been irresponsible as a player of the game to NOT support a PPC nerf at the time because they were outrageously overpowered weapons.

However PGI did not implement the nerfs I suggested. They implemented a bunch of ill-conceived nerfs that werent even close to my suggestions. So you can hardly blame me.

Yes PPCs were overpowered with 3 sec cooldown. This combined with low heat ballistics caused to poptarts to have higher dps than intended (the same thing is happening again with gauss+laser builds).

PGI basically gave us a choice how nerf them and the options we had were not the ones the players actually wanted. Increasing cooldown would've done the trick but instead we got speed nerfs and higher heat that made them (especially ER PPC) unusable.

[Khobai]

Quote

PGI basically gave us a choice how nerf them and the options we had were not the ones the players actually wanted. Increasing cooldown would've done the trick but instead we got speed nerfs and higher heat that made them (especially ER PPC) unusable.

PPCs werent overpowered because of 3 second cooldown. They were overpowered because they were being combod with Gauss. Because Dual PPC/Gauss allowed players to put 35 frontloaded damage into a hit location of their choosing from 600m away.

The entire purpose of the velocity nerf was to prevent PPCs from being effectively combod with Gauss. And a velocity nerf alone probably wouldve been fine to prevent PPC/Gauss shenanigans. However instead of just nerfing the velocity enough to decouple it from gauss, they completely overnerfed the velocity, nerfed the heat, AND nerfed the cooldown time.

And to make matters worse they then allowed Gauss/Laser vomit builds which are even more unbalanced... and doing upwards of 50-60 damage. Time to Kill was already too low with 35 pinpoint damage builds. But then they allowed 50-60 pinpoint damage builds when clan mechs came out and TTK has been reduced to pathetic levels ever since.

Edited by Khobai, 04 October 2015 - 04:20 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

Khobai, on 04 October 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

PPCs werent overpowered because of 3 second cooldown. They were overpowered because they were being combod with Gauss. Because Dual PPC/Gauss allowed players to put 35 frontloaded damage into a hit location of their choosing from 600m away.

The entire purpose of the velocity nerf was to prevent PPCs from being effectively combod with Gauss. And a velocity nerf alone probably wouldve been fine to prevent PPC/Gauss shenanigans. However instead of just nerfing the velocity enough to decouple it from gauss, they completely overnerfed the velocity, nerfed the heat, AND nerfed the cooldown time.

And to make matters worse they then allowed Gauss/Laser vomit builds which are even more unbalanced... and doing upwards of 50-60 damage. Time to Kill was already too low with 35 pinpoint damage builds. But then they allowed 50-60 pinpoint damage builds when clan mechs came out and TTK has been reduced to pathetic levels ever since.

This is just a difference in view then. I think it was the poor map design on especially Forest Colony and River City that were culprits when you could start the trade to the other side of the map right from the spawn. This however is now fixed pretty much and the new designs allow to close in better.

I still think the main reason was the cooldown that allowed a lance of four to spam constant pinpoint damage. If the cooldown was doubled that would keep the frontloaded pinpoint damage (that I think was ok but you think it was not ok?) but reduce the damage output the builds could do in X amount of time by almost half.

And yes gauss/laser vomit builds are worse for couple of reasons. Lesser skill gap by far and alot higher alphas pinpoint. It doesn't take much skill to point laser unlike with ppc's when you actually had to lead the shot to land it where you wanted.

[EM0ntY]

Hey Ugra,

"well played", I really enjoyed the reading. It's a very good summary of the development within mwo in the last months. So, after coming to the conclusion, that a the current level the clan lasers (LPL + ER ML) are the best weapon in the moment, I would like to add anther one important point (wink@nascar etc.). Here is a quote from "Play to win" (http://www.sirlin.ne...ide-and-conquer) from Sun Tzu:

Quote

It is the rule in war: If our forces are ten to the enemy’s one, to surround him; if five to one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two, one to meet the enemy in front, and one to fall upon his rear; if he replies to the frontal attack, he may be crushed from behind; if to the rearward attack, he may be crushed in front.

If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him. Though an obstinate fight may be made by a small force, in the end it must be captured by the larger force

Why I am telling this? Imagine everything is balanced, than, the team that is moving/positioning/analysing the opponent better, that team should win most of the time. It comes simply down to numbers, pure fire power and piloting/aiming skill. I think you can see it quite good in the MRBC matches. I like to quote at this point your AC5 spam decks: not common but very effecitve . So, back to the present, I think, whenever people discuss about weapons, equipment, chassis level, match maker, psr, p2w etc. they should also keep in mind, that the result of the match is also depending on the above mentioned quote from Sun Tzu. It's a simple rule of nature.

O7

EM0ntY

Edited by EM0ntY, 08 October 2015 - 05:23 AM.