88 replies to this topic

[Troutmonkey]

Want to solve the TTK issue?
Want to stop laser vomit?
Want to encourage mixed load outs?

Solution: Firing ~20 or more points of damage withing ~.5 seconds causes temporary reticule bloom and loss of pinpoint convergence. The more you fire over the limit, the worse the spread becomes.

Want to fire all your weapons at once? Sure! Just don't expect to everything to hit the same location.

Want all your shots to hit where you aim? Great, just exercise fire control and either chain fire or group weapons into smaller Alphas.

Now the more complex part is decoupling the spread from damage, and replacing it with another limit which can be called CPU.

• Each mech will have a CPU limit.
  
  • The limit can universal or be changed per mech to allow for higher / lower alphas before loss of accuracy.
    
  • Equipment such as the Command Console and Targeting computer could increase the CPU limit
• Each mech with dissipate (process) X CPU/Second.
  
  • The limit can universal or be changed per mech to allow for longer / shorter periods of sustained fire.
• Each weapon will use X CPU each time it fires.
  
  • Initially weapons will balance around 1 DMG = 1 CPU requirement, but weapons like MGs, SRMs and LB10X will use much less because they already spread damage.

Reticule bloom is a completely intuitive system that players would instantly understand if they've played any other shooter, and would help to reduce the massive alpha strikes that are present in the game. TTK would be reduced as damage would be spread, meaning that poking out from behind cover for 1 second wouldn't result in 60+ points of damage instantly coring you out - instead your opponents would have to either fire less weapons or risk spreading it all over your mech.

Given that reticule bloom is readily understandable and that CPU is "processed" quickly, it wouldn't require a an in game UI element outside of the reticule size increasing. If a system like this was put in place, ghost heat could be removed completely. Unlike Ghost Heat, this system can't be circumvented by mixing and matching weapon groups.

I know ideas like this have been suggested before in various forms, as my suggestion is nearly a complete knock off of Homeless Bill's comprehensive balance post from 2013 (before Ghost Heat was a thing). However I think now it's more relevant now than ever before, and really needs to be considered again. With the test server actually being used, it's now possible to test such a drastic idea before it ever goes live.

This system will promote skill in consistent aiming and weapons discipline. A duel between two players will no longer be decided by who has the highest alpha, but by the player who can exercise the most fire control and accuracy. I know people are bound to jump up and down about RNG and dice rolls or something, but I honestly believe a system like this is something that MWO desperately needs.

So what do you guys think?

Edited by Troutmonkey, 05 October 2015 - 09:55 PM.

[badaa]

im with u on the concept but be prepared to get meta ***** flamed.

[Khobai]

imo a better solution would just be to add something like outward damage transfer to the game.

whenever a location gets hit, part of the damage (say 25%) could get transferred outwards to an undestroyed adjacent location.

so like if your center torso gets hit, then your side torso(s) takes part of the damage, provided it hasnt been destroyed. and if your side torso gets hit part of the damage would transfer to an undestroyed arm or leg.

that would help arms and legs soak up a greater portion of damage like they do in tabletop.


it would be somewhat similar to how damage distribution worked in mechwarrior 2 with the overlapping hit spheres. the hitspheres would overlap multiple locations, and whenever a hitsphere got hit, it would assign damage randomly to one of the locations it overlapped. In that way mechwarrior 2 was able to distribute damage across multiple locations.

Edited by Khobai, 05 October 2015 - 10:08 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Khobai, on 05 October 2015 - 10:02 PM, said:

imo a better solution would just be to add outward damage transfer to the game.

whenever a location gets hit, part of the damage should get transferred outwards to undestroyed adjacent locations.

so like if your center torso gets hit, then your side torso takes part of the damage, provided it hasnt been destroyed.

that would help arms and legs soak up a greater portion of damage like they do in tabletop.

That sounds like what CERPPCs do now. I can see it being really annoying though because it would be shielding your cored torso with your side torsos really pointless. It takes away the skill in aiming and adds randomization for every shot, not just alpha strikes. You can spread damage to arms by skillfully torso twisting and spreading damage that way, you shouldn't punish the shooter here.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 05 October 2015 - 10:06 PM.

[Khobai]

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That sounds like what CERPPCs do now. I can see it being really annoying though because it would be shielding your cored torso with your side torsos really pointless.

Kindve. Except unlike CERPPCs all of the damage would get accounted for. You wouldnt have damage just disappearing like you do with the way CERPPCs work.

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It takes away the skill in aiming and adds randomization for every shot, not just alpha strikes.

Not really. Because 75% of the damage still hits the location you aim for. And it doesnt add any randomization at all. The amount and path of damage transfer would always be the same. There would be zero randomness whatsoever. The complete lack of randomness is actually why I prefer this solution over others.

All it does is redirect enough of the damage to make TTK not completely pathetic.

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You can spread damage to arms by skillfully torso twisting and spreading damage that way, you shouldn't punish the shooter here.

Except that doesnt really work all that well. You can just shoot mechs in the crotch which counts as CT for most mechs. lol. Or if youre in a group you can just get all your teammates to help you leg enemy mechs which removes torso twisting as an option altogether.

Plus that only works with arms on certain mechs. Theres no real way to get your legs to block shots being aimed at your upper torso. In tabletop arms and legs absorb a full 50% of damage your mech receives... the armor values were designed with arms and legs absorbing half the incoming damage... which is one of the major reasons why the system is broken in MWO.

Edited by Khobai, 05 October 2015 - 10:27 PM.

[Greyhart]

I think that lasers damage becoming spread if there is over a certain amount in a single area would be viable solution to the problem of pinpoint damage and high alpha.

High alphas are not a problem of themselves if the damage is spread. who complains of LRM alphas? No one because the damage is spread.

pinpoint damage would not be a problem if the damage was not so high. No one complains of 1 or 2 small lasers to the torso.

Edited by Greyhart, 06 October 2015 - 04:07 AM.

[Triordinant]

Sounds like it's worth looking into...

[Prof RJ Gumby]

I would just give lasers (main culprit because pinpoint hitscan) a longer burn time overall. Simplest solution IMHO. More burn time = more aiming required, bigger chance for the crosshair to wander off, more time for the enemy to twist that component away from you etc.

Lasers need some nerf anyway, to bring them in line in all ballistic and rocket weapons that aren't bad themselves, but they're just worse than lasers. Save the overquirked chassis, only the gauss can keep up with lasers, and only on some mechs, and still is the best when coupled with lasers.

[CDLord HHGD]

I like it and think it's worth looking into/testing.

[GreyNovember]

Not to entirely dismiss your idea, but.

Isn't there a much less complex, less effort required solution to address the initial problems described?

[CDLord HHGD]

GreyNovember, on 06 October 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

Not to entirely dismiss your idea, but.

Isn't there a much less complex, less effort required solution to address the initial problems described?

We don't want easy! We want fancy that makes us believe it easy!

[Big Bertha 00]

Hopefully, PGI is considering options like this.

I like that it doesn't add another mechanic to the game, it replaces one- ghost heat.

[Nick Tsunami]

I think there is an easier way to incorporate the idea:

Just bloom the reticle in line with the heatscale.

This way you keep the relevance of high-alpha while increasing TTK:

. The first alpha from resting heat works ok.
. The subsequent alphas or even just normal fighting is significantly degraded as it is going from the 80-ish heat of re-start if shutdown or the leftover heat of alpha 1.
. mechs will use more hs and such carry lighter weapon load.

Those last 2 points will increase TTK, at least when not in a 12 v 1 concentrated fire situation

Only downside is that it may reinforce the peek-a-boo sniper play style, which is already strong and common.

[Livewyr]

It has about the same chance of happening as the dozens of other ideas...

This has been a problem for years.. and they won't even acknowledge that it is one.

[Greyhart]

well in most FPSs when running the crosshairs expand to show that there is going to be less accurate.

In MWO you could have this happen if the heat is over say 50%

[Yellonet]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 06 October 2015 - 04:25 AM, said:

I would just give lasers (main culprit because pinpoint hitscan) a longer burn time overall. Simplest solution IMHO. More burn time = more aiming required, bigger chance for the crosshair to wander off, more time for the enemy to twist that component away from you etc.

Lasers need some nerf anyway, to bring them in line in all ballistic and rocket weapons that aren't bad themselves, but they're just worse than lasers. Save the overquirked chassis, only the gauss can keep up with lasers, and only on some mechs, and still is the best when coupled with lasers.

I made a topic with exactly that idea, but unsurprisingly it met with a lot of flak from the vocal clanners.
http://mwomercs.com/...-other-weapons/

[l33tworks]

Have you even thought this through from a technical standpoint OP? They don't have the ability to do reticle bloom in the way you suggest. Just look at the way the jump sniping weapon accuracy was implemented. It goes from perfect accuracy to a wonky angle instantly the moment you fire while you are still jump jetting. There is no analogue feature here. Just on on/off state.

With the worldwide player base and lag its just too hard. If its client side it will be hacked and if its server side all the people with bad connections will just have yet another huge drawbag to deal with, just like with increased lock on times, delayed info gathering, delayed shutdown/startup shutdown sequence, delayed zoom times (you can literally make 5 zoom changes at 50ms ping for every 1 zoom change you can make at 200ms ping, I have tried it)

What they can do however that will effectively give the same effect as what you suggest, is increase the the thickness of laser beams to cover a larger area of damage the further out you get. Other weapons would be unaffected and remain accurate whereas the pinpoint accuracy of lasers will be virtually eliminated. It will be completely server side as thats where damage is applied anyway, maybe some visual changes to the thickness of lasers on user end only to reflect that.

Something like this





Should not take more than a few days worth of work.

The beauty of it is at closer ranges you will still be able to single out components however as the mech gets further away the area of damage the laser touches gets naturally more spread out because the mechs get smaller in your view.

GreyNovember, on 06 October 2015 - 04:34 AM, said:

Not to entirely dismiss your idea, but.

Isn't there a much less complex, less effort required solution to address the initial problems described?

See above IMO What I suggest is not only simple and very easy to implement for PGI, it also solves the whole thing about pinpoint lasers without having to deal with any of the complicated 1000s of convergence ideas that have been tossed around for years.

Edited by l33tworks, 06 October 2015 - 06:17 AM.

[Innocent]

End perfect convergence by making torso mounted weapons have a fixed convergence point at their normal max range. This will spread their damage and make them not converge with arm mounted weapons. (arm mounted weapons without lower actuators would also have a fixed convergence point)

[Dino Might]

Troutmonkey, on 05 October 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

It takes away the skill in aiming

OP, prepare to be beat to death with this misconception.
Just realized you are the OP. There's a contradiction. I am now confused.

Edited by Dino Might, 06 October 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[Troutmonkey]

Innocent, on 06 October 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

End perfect convergence by making torso mounted weapons have a fixed convergence point at their normal max range. This will spread their damage and make them not converge with arm mounted weapons. (arm mounted weapons without lower actuators would also have a fixed convergence point)

I mentioned that my post is very similar to Homeless Bills Idea and he's also posted a Q&A section where he has rebuttals for most counter ideas.

http://www.qqmercs.c...ence-and-clans/

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Remove Convergence
Again, this is extremely unforgiving and unpopular. How do you represent it to the player on the HUD? Beyond that, it gives many chassis an advantage due to hardpoint locations. The HGN-732 can mount 45 points of damage on its right side (3xPPC in RT, 1xGauss in RA) and would be quite superior to a sniper with spread hardpoints. The Jagermech would be useless as a fire support ‘mech if both of its arms couldn’t aim at a single location. This is another battle axe solution.
Verdict: Mostly capable of solving the problem, wildly unpopular, ineffective against certain chassis, several unintended consequences, extremely irritating and/or confusing for most players, needlessly harsh.

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Fixed convergence (whether pre-determined or user-set) would be irritating without fixing the problem. It just forces players to be at the range of convergence at all times if they want to be accurate. On top of that, it doesn’t solve those pinpoint alphas – it just makes you work harder for them.
In my mind, it would actually make the problem worse by encouraging more high-alpha builds. Because getting off as much damage as possible as quickly as possible at the range of convergence would be the goal, there’s no better way to achieve that than to run cheesy, high-alpha builds.

Fixed convergence in a game where the player is unmaneuverable (relative to other shooters) just becomes extremely annoying. It’s a simulation element that many players (especially casual / cross-overs) will hate. The negative effect it would have on pacing far outweighs the limited solvency it would achieve.

Verdict: Ineffective at solving the problem, extremely irritating, unintended effects on pacing and gameplay.

Edited by Troutmonkey, 06 October 2015 - 04:03 PM.