17 replies to this topic

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Figured this is a great spot to stick this, seeing as how everyone and their khan are trying to figure out how to cleanly integrate the clans

http://penny-arcade....ode/power-creep

basically I found vindication in this video about Clan v IS equipment.
Best material starts at 3:50 with the concept of 'non-comparables.'

Basically 'non-comparables' are items/skills/spells etc that accomplish different things, not just doing the same task only better. The clan wargear is the antithesis to 'non-comparables,' and only does IS stuff better.

give it a watch, post what you think

[Stray Ion]

I have seen that vid in a pay 2 win thread, IMO Clan tech is balanced with weight, cycle time, and heat generated in previous MW games. I would imagine they would be balanced here as well in accordacne with prophecy.

The most I could get out of Garth is "We've yet to officially confirm/deny Clan availability." in a PM.

For me I will just sit tight and wait to see how it is handled if anything has to be handled at all.

[Diablo48]

Honestly, Clan tech is supposed to be strait up better than IS tech and is supposed to be balanced by the number or size of units in play. The easy way to do this is make Clan tech only avalible to the Clans and force them to accept a disadvantage in numbers or tonnage to balance it out. This is not power creep, this is quality vs. quantity.

[Morashtak]

Power creep will be an issue as the Clan tech (power leap?) arrives and then as time passes the upgraded IS tech (SSRM4's, et al).

As addressed in many other threads Clan tech will some some type of balancing mechanic (modified BV, Binary vs Company, etc). Give the Clan pilots a tool, such as a voluntary Zellbrigen/Batchall system, to limit themselves, provide a challenge, as well as earn more LPs and C-Bills. Restrictions will needed to be found other than the equipment being much more expensive to repair and re-arm.

Will medium lasers never be used once pulse medium lasers make it into the game? There are already balancing mechanics in place (tonnage, heat, cost) so not seeing regular medium lasers going out of fashion. Same with the UACs and RACs,

Plenty of time to beta test this before the equipment makes an appearance, of course.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Morashtak, on 08 July 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Will medium lasers never be used once pulse medium lasers make it into the game? There are already balancing mechanics in place (tonnage, heat, cost) so not seeing regular medium lasers going out of fashion. Same with the UACs and RACs,

Plenty of time to beta test this before the equipment makes an appearance, of course.

here's the thing though, the CER ML is still better than the IS ER ML, and so on with the pulse versions, it matches exactly what the narrator of the vid was talking about with items that are better in every way to preceding equipment. Also, in IS tech, the ER ML and the MPLS accomplish different things - one is the staple weapon of the game, handy at everything; while the other is supposed to be an infighters favorite. The clan versions of these are both at the same time, somehow C MPLS squeezes a ludicrous range out of what is supposed to be the infighter weapon, taking it out of this role and making it a powerful replacement to the ER ML.

@Diablo: I don't buy that, and I never bought that. The most successful games I've seen never had a faction that was 'just supposed to be better.' Thats lousy design, because it invalidates the other faction, at this point why bother with the other equipment, everyone points this out especially here. I also view game design as malleable, something not set in stone, so if theres a chance to improve things for a game I love then yes I believe things should change: we're here to play a game, not listen to a story, so this game better be fun and most clan tech breaks that fun by forcing one team to play at an arbitrary handicap for no reason in context of gameplay.

[Diablo48]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 08 July 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

@Diablo: I don't buy that, and I never bought that. The most successful games I've seen never had a faction that was 'just supposed to be better.' Thats lousy design, because it invalidates the other faction, at this point why bother with the other equipment, everyone points this out especially here. I also view game design as malleable, something not set in stone, so if theres a chance to improve things for a game I love then yes I believe things should change: we're here to play a game, not listen to a story, so this game better be fun and most clan tech breaks that fun by forcing one team to play at an arbitrary handicap for no reason in context of gameplay.

Ok, how about Starcraft. It went strong for more than ten years before the sequel came out so you cannot argue that it was not increddibly sucessful, and everything the Protoss have is just better than what the other races have but the game is still balanced by cost.

The Clans in BattleTech are balanced in the same way. Sure their stuff is better, but you pay for it in BV so you wind up with fewer or lighter units when taking a Clan force against an IS opponent.

[Hunson Abadeer]

They need to avoid implementing salvage. If Inner Sphere players have access to Clantech, that is all they will use because it is better. The same is true for Level 3 technology. People will flock to the most powerful stuff available because it becomes an arms race. One person will do it, and then another, and then another, and so on until everyone is doing it just to be able to compete.

I do not think they should implement a BV limit that would keep people from using their favorite 'Mechs, but I would like to see them put in extra options for the Inner Sphere based on a sliding scale. For example, they could implement artillery, minefields, airstrikes, and/or hanging sensor-confusing mirrors that can be called in by the commander, but those things are unlocked based on the relative BV of the two sides. The more lopsided the teams are in favor of the Clans the more options the commander can select from for the match to balance it out. If things are even or lopsided in favor of the Inner Sphere, then the commander loses those options. This could also give commanders their own flavor in battle as one may prefer multiple minefields while another may prefer a mix of artillery and airstrikes, &c.

That gives the Clanners the option to use whatever they want to use, but the Inner Sphere will have tricks to balance things out.

[Dimestore]

since there will already have to be some form of balancing mechanic even just for IS vs IS combat (ie mech count) much of the innate superior gear factor for the Clans could be evened out by an advanced version of the same system (ie Clans field 60% IS mech count).

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Diablo48, on 08 July 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Ok, how about Starcraft. It went strong for more than ten years before the sequel came out so you cannot argue that it was not increddibly sucessful, and everything the Protoss have is just better than what the other races have but the game is still balanced by cost.

The Clans in BattleTech are balanced in the same way. Sure their stuff is better, but you pay for it in BV so you wind up with fewer or lighter units when taking a Clan force against an IS opponent.

I'm glad you brought up Starcraft. By you saying that ‘everything the protoss has is better’ you’ve missed the section ‘non-comparables.’ Yes protoss equipment costs more, but notice how they’re aren’t ‘the best.’ A zerg player can knock a protoss player out quickly using the right zerg units, and it has nothing to do with numbers rather using the right units. Units between factions don’t overlap tactically. Tell me, wheres the bigger better Protoss siege tank that is just a Terran siege tank but with a longer range, does more damage? See my point? Clan tech overlaps and obsoletes IS tech, this is a bad thing. Tactically IS and Clan hail from the same tech tree, thus are they don’t play differently. Zerg vs Protoss? Both play very differently and their units hardly overlap. Starcraft is one of the best balanced RTS’s to be made, period, and that’s part of its enduring success.

as for clan tech 'costing more.' Take a look at a TT example, notice how in WH40k, Space Marines points cost are higher than say dark eldar. But you're only looking at one aspect, that of points cost. Dark Eldar rules, units, equipments accomplish other things tactically than Space Marines. Also notice how the heavy bolter is powerful but it does not directly supersede the splinter cannon, one being a Heavy 3 gun the other an Assault 4. You can go down the line with other armies and their units.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 09 July 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[Diablo48]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 July 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

I'm glad you brought up Starcraft. By you saying that ‘everything the protoss has is better’ you’ve missed the section ‘non-comparables.’ Yes protoss equipment costs more, but notice how they’re aren’t ‘the best.’ A zerg player can knock a protoss player out quickly using the right zerg units, and it has nothing to do with numbers rather using the right units. Units between factions don’t overlap tactically. Tell me, wheres the bigger better Protoss siege tank that is just a Terran siege tank but with a longer range, does more damage? See my point? Clan tech overlaps and obsoletes IS tech, this is a bad thing. Tactically IS and Clan hail from the same tech tree, thus are they don’t play differently. Zerg vs Protoss? Both play very differently and their units hardly overlap. Starcraft is one of the best balanced RTS’s to be made, period, and that’s part of its enduring success.

as for clan tech 'costing more.' Take a look at a TT example, notice how in WH40k, Space Marines points cost are higher than say dark eldar. But you're only looking at one aspect, that of points cost. Dark Eldar rules, units, equipments accomplish other things tactically than Space Marines. Also notice how the heavy bolter is powerful but it does not directly supersede the splinter cannon, one being a Heavy 3 gun the other an Assault 4. You can go down the line with other armies and their units.

No, Starcraft has asymetric balance. Yes the Zerg can win, but they will need either more or larger units than the Protoss. This is because the Zerg units are cheaper than Protoss units, so they are weaker to balance it out. Also, I note that you picked the single most unique unit in the game while conveneiently neglecting to mention the Dragoon which is directly comperable to the Marine or Hydralisk but is signifigantly more powerful (and more expensive to match).

Battletech does the same thing when you actually use the balance mechanisms built into the game because Clan tech is not supposed to directly compete with IS tech, it is intended to be used in smaller numbers to create a quality vs. quantity game like Protoss vs. Zerg in Starcraft. You could call this a non-comperable if you really wanted to because the Clans have more range and concentrated power while the IS has more numbers, but I view non-comperables as the more diverse elements mentioned in League of Legends which create far more diversity than the differences between Zerg and Protoss in Starcraft.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Diablo48, on 09 July 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

No, Starcraft has asymetric balance. Yes the Zerg can win, but they will need either more or larger units than the Protoss. This is because the Zerg units are cheaper than Protoss units, so they are weaker to balance it out. Also, I note that you picked the single most unique unit in the game while conveneiently neglecting to mention the Dragoon which is directly comperable to the Marine or Hydralisk but is signifigantly more powerful (and more expensive to match).

It’s still balanced, and the zerg do need better units, but they don’t always win through sheer numbers, unlike the IS. I also wouldn’t consider Ultralisks or Hydralisks cheap. You’d like another example than the siege tank? Ok lets talk about the marine, stalker cause we’re in SCII now, and the zergling. Stalker has shields and teleportation, marines have stimpaks, and zerglings have numbers and speed :: each brings something different to the table, yes cost is a factor, but nowhere does it say that marines can teleport but stalkers teleport further, or zerglings are cheaper and still ranged, while marines cost more. You also pass off the siege tank example, I’ve seen most Terran builds use the tanks, it’s not ‘unique’ it’s a staple of terran strategy. It’s closest analogue at least for protoss is the Colossus, a walker than can walk up and down cliffs, but is vulernable to air attack and makes only slashing attacks not AoE explosions.

Diablo48, on 09 July 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

Battletech does the same thing when you actually use the balance mechanisms built into the game because Clan tech is not supposed to directly compete with IS tech, it is intended to be used in smaller numbers to create a quality vs. quantity game like Protoss vs. Zerg in Starcraft. You could call this a non-comperable if you really wanted to because the Clans have more range and concentrated power while the IS has more numbers, but I view non-comperables as the more diverse elements mentioned in League of Legends which create far more diversity than the differences between Zerg and Protoss in Starcraft.

So, every IS v Clan match is only quantity v quality, wow you really aren’t helping CBT’s case, and in fact seem to be watering down possible gameplay or scenarios to only one dynamic… <_<then again clan tech pretty much forces this anyway

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 09 July 2012 - 08:23 PM.

[Diablo48]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 09 July 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

It’s still balanced, and the zerg do need better units, but they don’t always win through sheer numbers, unlike the IS. I also wouldn’t consider Ultralisks or Hydralisks cheap. You’d like another example than the siege tank? Ok lets talk about the marine, stalker cause we’re in SCII now, and the zergling. Stalker has shields and teleportation, marines have stimpaks, and zerglings have numbers and speed :: each brings something different to the table, yes cost is a factor, but nowhere does it say that marines can teleport but stalkers teleport further, or zerglings are cheaper and still ranged, while marines cost more.

I was using SC 1 because you requested proven sucess which the sequel does not have yet. It is also easier to directly compare units because it does not have the SC 2 approach of throwing special abilitieis onto absoltuely everything which muddies the issue. In Starcraft 1, the Hydralisks were signifigantly less powerful than the Dragoon and had no abilities to make them better, but the two units were balanced against eachother by cost.

Quote

You also pass off the siege tank example, I’ve seen most Terran builds use the tanks, it’s not ‘unique’ it’s a staple of terran strategy. It’s closest analogue at least for protoss is the Colossus, a walker than can walk up and down cliffs, but is vulernable to air attack and makes only slashing attacks not AoE explosions.

I meant unique to the Terran. The other races do have siege engines, but the Siege Tank has more range at the cost of its ability to move. In SC1 the Protoss get the Reaver which hits harder than the Siege Tank right out of a DropShip but has its own limitations, and the Zerg have the Guardian which trades out splash damage for flight. In 2 this became the Colossus and the Brood Lord which both do lots of other things like everything else in that game which makes direct comparisons difficult.

Quote

So, every IS v Clan match is only quantity v quality, wow you really aren’t helping CBT’s case, and in fact seem to be watering down possible gameplay or scenarios to only one dynamic… <_<then again clan tech pretty much forces this anyway

No more so than every Protoss vs. Zerg match is quality vs. quantity. It is simply an additional dynamic that is added to Clan vs. IS matches.

[Stormwolf]

I had a idea for the mechlab and tech levels for the technicians that would support the users. You can't obtain and maintain Clan tech without a crew of Clan technicians you need to capture. So you can get Clan tech, but you can't outfit the entire unit with it without having Clan technicians to maintain the mechs for every member (Clan mechs break down after a while without proper maintenance).

Let's take a hypothetical situation:

The IS team (let's call them the Crimson Raiders) captured a crew of Clan technicians on their last mission against Clan Jade Falcon. They now confront the Clan again and issue a trial of possession for a Warhawk (Masakari) to get a intact mech.

The Clan team will demand something in return, they wish to have the Clan techs returned to them along with some captured Clan weapons your team took earlier.

The Clan team now has a shot at keeping Clan tech out of enemy hands. The Crimson Raiders could gain a Clan mech, however they might lose it again in a later match against the Clans since they will surely trial for it again.

In short, you can't gain Clan tech without the risk of losing what you already have.


Clan players on the other hand would have a vastly different mechanic through bidding, the Clan team would be limited to by BV or tonnage considerations, even the C-Bill value could be used here. There should be a minimum bid value to prevent abuse of this function though.

Edited by Stormwolf, 10 July 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[Roc]

Stormwolf, I would go one step further. From I have seen of the Game, we can always repair IS mechs so long as we have the C-Bills. This should not be the case with Clans Mechs.

Clan Mechs should be very hard to salvage, so most of the time players should only be able to salvage ammo or parts. These parts and ammo should be required to make repairs on Clans Mechs. So basicly IS technicians can only swap Clan parts and not repair them.

Other players salvage Clan 'Mechs, ammo and parts -> Sell them on the Black market -> Player buys stuff from Black market to keep his Masakari functional. And if the Player can't maintain his Masakari anymore then he/she should get the option to scrap his 'Mech for parts.

If its done right then we could see a true black market economy springing up.

[Okami Ryu]

i always thought clan produced more heat but if that is not enough make it take more critical spaces (as the different power system needs to be adapted)

then again i could be mistaken as i missed the majority of Mechwarrior games (for you battletech fanatics mechwarrior is probably easier to adapt in this case)

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Okami Ryu, on 10 July 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

i always thought clan produced more heat but if that is not enough make it take more critical spaces (as the different power system needs to be adapted)

Yes most clan weapons produce more heat: just so happens though that all frontline omnimechs are mounted with Double Heat Sinks that are 1 crit smaller than the IS version, allowing more to be packed into a smaller space. Most frontline omni’s run pretty damn cold, negating the whole heat issure.

Diablo48, on 09 July 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

I was using SC 1 because you requested proven sucess which the sequel does not have yet. It is also easier to directly compare units because it does not have the SC 2 approach of throwing special abilitieis onto absoltuely everything which muddies the issue. In Starcraft 1, the Hydralisks were signifigantly less powerful than the Dragoon and had no abilities to make them better, but the two units were balanced against eachother by cost.

What you call ‘muddying’ I call better balance, throwing special abilities on everything plays into that concept of ‘non-comparables’ which only enhances the flavor of each faction, and reduces the chance of overlap. No abilities to make hydralisks better eh? So you don’t recall ‘Burrow’? Or that, again, even SC1, every faction isn’t supposed to 1:1 match each other, rather there are counters, which is the more important thing. CBT, there are no real counters for ClanTech weaponry, it just is literally better.

Diablo48, on 09 July 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

I meant unique to the Terran. The other races do have siege engines, but the Siege Tank has more range at the cost of its ability to move. In SC1 the Protoss get the Reaver which hits harder than the Siege Tank right out of a DropShip but has its own limitations, and the Zerg have the Guardian which trades out splash damage for flight. In 2 this became the Colossus and the Brood Lord which both do lots of other things like everything else in that game which makes direct comparisons difficult.

Notice how each has a set of positives and negatives? Notice how the siege tank isn’t just all-perfect? That’s the kind of stuff I want to see in ClanTech, actual tradeoffs, like IS tech has. It does not have to be major changes, much like most munchkins here would like to see it as, but your paragraph above proves my point: each unit does not supersede the other, and each has its strengths. Tell me where the strength to taking an IS ER LL is as opposed to a C ER LL? Pulse lasers? LRM's? SRMs?

Diablo48, on 09 July 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

No more so than every Protoss vs. Zerg match is quality vs. quantity. It is simply an additional dynamic that is added to Clan vs. IS matches.

I think a lot of zerg players would take issue with that. If that was the case, then a massive wave of hydras would buy you the game…oh wait it doesn’t. Spam does not work for any of the factions because each faction has its own counter unit that when spammed will just negate the original spammed unit. I also wouldn’t call ‘quant v qual’ as an ‘additional’ dynamic to the Clan vs IS match: as it stands now it’s the only dynamic, which is just depressing.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 10 July 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Ashla Mason]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is about a dozen different ways to balance clan mechs out without having to cut down their tech edge.

1: Change the role system for the clans.
The role system that has been submitted so far doesn't work so well for clans thematically, since (themeatically) integrated warfare between mechs comes very close to violating zellbrigen (as well, some of the options within the role trees sound like they would violate zell). As a result, they should get a modified role system that works towards making them and them personally better.

2: Zellbrigen is all.
Zell is at the heart of the clans and has made them into the ultra lethal killing machines we know today and not making it the core of the clan system would be neurotic. I would propose that players be rewarded for obeying it's edicts while being stiffly penalized for violating it. this will discourage mob mentality and "cheap" tactics since players who rely on them will go nowhere fast while players who have genuine personal skill will excel.

3: Disable Indirect fire.
It requires two mechs to make it work and it occurs without line of sight. that's 2 violations of zellbrigen and thus a good reason to completely lock it out of clan mechs.

This is just a few ways that the clans can be realigned so that they are still flavorful wile not being absurdly OP.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Ashla Mason, on 11 July 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: there is about a dozen different ways to balance clan mechs out without having to cut down their tech edge.

1: Change the role system for the clans.
The role system that has been submitted so far doesn't work so well for clans thematically, since (themeatically) integrated warfare between mechs comes very close to violating zellbrigen (as well, some of the options within the role trees sound like they would violate zell). As a result, they should get a modified role system that works towards making them and them personally better.

No, the role system falls apart in the case of the clans because literally every frontline omnimech can fill any role desired. One of the best examples of this absurdity is the Mad Dog compared to the Catapult, each is supposed to be LRM fire support. Mad Dog’s stock loadout not only accomplishes this, but then is able to throw on 2 LPLS, 2 MPLS, DHS, and a higher speed bracket (5/8 vs 4/6) for 5 tons less. One mech’s role is fire support complete with strengths and weaknesses, the other is not, the other, is a pocket assault mech. Of the Clan mechs that do have a sort of ‘role,’ they do what they’re intended to do with BAP, or weapons loadouts. This point of your post makes it sound like zell washes away any tactics whatsoever, I know many a clan player that would take issue with that.

Ashla Mason, on 11 July 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

2: Zellbrigen is all.
Zell is at the heart of the clans and has made them into the ultra lethal killing machines we know today and not making it the core of the clan system would be neurotic. I would propose that players be rewarded for obeying it's edicts while being stiffly penalized for violating it. this will discourage mob mentality and "cheap" tactics since players who rely on them will go nowhere fast while players who have genuine personal skill will excel.

Again, no, zell is not at the heart of the clans. There’s a reason why the majority does not play with them nor any video game ever implemented these rules; they’re dumb. These rules penalize smart play, opportunity, any sort of strategic finesse in favor of “hurrr durrr let’s line up and fight.”

Ashla Mason, on 11 July 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

3: Disable Indirect fire.
It requires two mechs to make it work and it occurs without line of sight. that's 2 violations of zellbrigen and thus a good reason to completely lock it out of clan mechs.

Why do the clans not get indirect fire? If I point my LRMS at point x,y; I should be able to fire at that point, granted the fire may not be accurate or effective but that’s not the idea. Also Indirect fire does not balance longer range brackets on non-missile weapons. If I can zoom in on a mech that is Z meters away, it matters not if I can target it with my computer or not – I should be allowed to fire my ERPPC and try for a hit.

Ashla Mason, on 11 July 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

This is just a few ways that the clans can be realigned so that they are still flavorful wile not being absurdly OP.

When will people get this: overpowered toys are not a flavor. The types of weapons and equipment that is given to an army is the flavor. Using the SC example still; Zerg and Protoss are radically different from each other, yet both are viable on the battlefield, each requires skill to use and to win. No game uses metagame elements to balance a faction. If a faction is not balanced without the metagame, that faction is broken.

furthermore on this metagame business, where's the metagame elements for IS forces? if even for IS v IS? How come there's only a metagame for Clan stuff? that's right, metagame elements were tacked on try and make the OP clan tech seem balanced and palatable.

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 11 July 2012 - 01:33 PM.