91 replies to this topic

[Mazzyplz]

here is a more apt analogy:

imagine a game company plans to make a racing game about GT racecars and racing motorbikes in the same event.
ok? they announce the game will feature many different competing high end car manufacturers, some with 100 years of history and with fans of their own - mercedes, aston martin, ferrari, lamborghini, bmw, bugatti, pagani, maserati; OK?
and will feature some of the fastest bikes like the honda and the ducati.

they guarantee you will be able to play bike or car whatever and they will make justice to the competition and brands they are representing.

the game launches and for absolutely no reason at all, mercedes cars only go 90mph. ducati which is supposed to be the best bike, handles like crap in the game. the ferrari can still race the honda... but 55%+ of the cars and bikes in the game are absolute garbage, yet you don't care to fix it for the fans of the brand, nor for the new players who may fall in a beginner trap, nor someone who may be preferring a car with oversteer vs understeer etc; you only make the cars with oversteer play well.
no real choice between front mounted engine, etc...
it's either rear mounted engine rear wheel drive or you defacto lose before leaving the hangar. hurrdurr

but you know that the originals were indeed able to compete with one another (like we know some mechs are supposed to be good in battletech but in mwo they are trash); just in the game, they are crap. and the developer doesn't care. they plan to add a formula1 expansion that will make your mercedes (or whatever- it's not the point which brand is the one that sucks in this hypothetical scenario) even more useless

how would the audience for this hypothetical game react? bingo.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 08 October 2015 - 09:33 AM.

[Dino Might]

ROFL @ Ducati being the best racing bike. Sorry...that just slayed me

[Mazzyplz]

Dimento Graven, on 08 October 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

The extreme stupidity of NOT realizing the heat affects table is necessary for balance is mind boggling.

think your mind's been boggled empty; you haven't even adressed the concerns i present. nice dreaming though; gasguzzler is right, 'lore = balance' is the real idiocy

Dino Might, on 08 October 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

ROFL @ Ducati being the best racing bike. Sorry...that just slayed me

damn it isn't? i am not an authority on the bike subject

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 October 2015 - 08:57 AM, said:

LMAO @ the idea that lore=balance

LMAO @ you.

If we had more lore, we'd have more appropriate balance.

[Gas Guzzler]

cdlord, on 08 October 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

LMAO @ you.

If we had more lore, we'd have more appropriate balance.

Right because turn-based board games translate directly to real time first person tactical shooters right?

Seriously, lore was blatantly unbalanced anyway, how can you even argue that lore would bring balance to MWO?

The one thing I could see applying regarding heat scale, is some sort of loss of agility when reaching 93+%, or at least when overriding.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 08 October 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

FrontGuard, on 08 October 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

Think about it guys...
What you are saying is you want every mech to be the same by class but just look different.
that would suck and you would Rage against it.

If you want to fight... at least pick something worth your time. balance is Not worth any time right now.
Much bigger fish.

There is balance to the extent that similar mechs are similar but not identical. There is Clan tech vs IS tech. And after much time and consideration, the video games for Battletech/Mechwarrior needs to step outside the boardgame rule book and lore to bring a resemblance of a balanced game.

1. Base/core rules need to be expanded upon - PGI has partially done that in extreme positive way with Heat Sinks and Heat Scale but failed to bring in any the balance to that, the negative effects except when exceeding max heat scale. PGI has also many other changes listed elsewhere in this thread.

A. Heat Scale Cap - PGI version is base 30 + number/type - SHS or DHS (engine+ external)

B. Heat Sinks - SHS = 1.0 / DHS 2.0 engine + external DHS 1.4

C. Heat Scale Cap - negative effects from shutdown to shutdown damage to CT vs override+continue moving/other actions to damage to random location.

D. No other negative effects to balance, slow mech speed, lower mech agility, ammo explosion-optional but not necessary and more than one shutdown threshold points-optional but not necessary.

a. Without intermediate effects a pilot can continue firing and moving at full speed with no need to worry about mech slowing down and becoming sluggish which would result to mech becoming an easier target.

E. Criticals - Board game rules all items are capable of being crit

a. PGI there are crit hits with each item having Health Points, so one crit hit does not necessarily take out an item, unless it is ammo/gauss rifle and the crit results in ammo explosion.

b. Items that are not crit or if crit (crit padding) does not have any affect on a mech performance: gyros, life support, cockpit, actuators, ENGINE

Engine are a big one. For Standard (currently only IS) CT needs to be destroyed / IS XL CT or one side torso has to be destroyed. For Clan XL, CT or both sides has to be destroyed. With Clan XL PGI made the mech operate with a heat penalty with the loss of one side torso to simulate the loss of 2 ST engine crits.

With this being a simulation or FPS game that currently the only random effect is ammo crits and overriding shutdown random component damage and weapon fire is point and shoot some things should change.

2. Destruction of side torso for IS XL engine should not destroy the mech but it should have greater heat penalty than Clan XL ST loss penalty.

3. Add 2-3 intermediate thresholds to the Heatscale that would affect a mechs speed and agility. For game purposes the higher up the heat scale a mech was, the more sluggish the mech became while also causing potential health problems for the mechwarrior (consciousness rolls).

As noted, there needs to be a more solid foundation for heat effects in game, as well as what happens when a IS XL is damaged vs when a Clan XL is damaged (one side torso destroyed). After that weapons, sensors/info systems and chassis can be worked on and tweaked.

And once PGI conducts several more of its PTS and that eventually goes live, I do not see the IS mechs having as many high percentage quirks as this bunch currently has. That would leave IS mechs trying to field mechs with almost same amount/level of weapons as Clans, as well as similar speed while being more fragile, or running a stock engine, running slower, fewer and lighter weapons.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 08 October 2015 - 09:45 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

the tabletop thing went out the window before even open beta when they made armor double, ballistic 3x range - true doubles into 1.4 - etc etc etc.
and dont act like true doubles are a good idea. just no


even from the get go, following tabletop was yielding fail

and even if it wasn't; the premise of the game is already different from tabletop/battletech, because in mwo a light mech can actually compete with an assault in some fashion; where as in TT/lore there is no reason not to drive an atlas almost every time; if it wasn't for the aquiring and operating cost i guess

Edited by Mazzyplz, 08 October 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[Johnny Z]

FrontGuard, on 08 October 2015 - 07:37 AM, said:

If you are poor, you can be happy with a Toyota Celica GT...
If you are rich, you may want a Lamborghini.
Only a rabid communist would insist they be balanced and both have to buy a mustang.
Sure, they may both be okay with the Mustang until the rich guy decides to move to a democratic country and quit your country.
MWO is similar.
I'm not rich... but I'm not poor either.
I would say the game needs very little Mech balancing and for the most part is fine as it is.
Mech balance is a non-issue.
True, I refuse to purchase the Lamborghini (Timber Wolf) and I make it a point to go after them with hatred when I see one.
I can be happy with my Mustang ( Catapult )
What I would not be happy with is if they were all Mustangs.
No really... There are a great many issues with this game Far more important than Balance.
IMHO F Balance...
and to the "woh always me" QQ complainers...
Try and look on the bright side...
F'n Please!

Ya your all a bunch of communists HAHA LOLOL and I bet half of ya do yoga to.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 October 2015 - 09:40 AM.

[Macksheen]

Bilbo, on 08 October 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

There is nothing more important in a pvp game than balance.

Disagree. Someone smarter than me explains why here:

http://archive.wizar...tg/daily/mm/218

[Mazzyplz]

Macksheen, on 08 October 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Disagree. Someone smarter than me explains why here:

http://archive.wizar...tg/daily/mm/218

the thing about one bad card in magic is that you can NEED TO have 56 other cards in your deck (if you even choose to have 4 of the bad card) so you are not relying on it; it's not like in mwo that you are driving said thing and only said thing - i am going thru the article though, may come to edit this down the line

Edited by Mazzyplz, 08 October 2015 - 09:46 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mazzyplz, on 08 October 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

think your mind's been boggled empty; you haven't even adressed the concerns i present. nice dreaming though; gasguzzler is right, 'lore = balance' is the real idiocy

I assume you mean this post:

Quote

heat scale does not work in mwo context at least with the weapon system even remotely like it is right now because it just wrecks erppc/ppc and srm mechs; just so you have more targets for your dual gauss? and then we never get to see the novacat because it's all energy and the heat scale would make it suck; where as less heat intensive weapon systems like the ones that use ammunition don't actually suffer the lower mobility- etc -etc -etc.
so yeah you would be nerfing trebuchet awesome quickdraw so you can pad your dual gauss dire some moar; noty

paul had better foresight than you in this instance, even if ghost heat isn't an elegant solution in the slightest - sry

Well, your concerns are expressed badly, BUT, I'll filter through the crap and list the actual concerns and I'll try and respond, though I'm going to have to make you think by asking you questions first:

Quote

heat scale does not work in mwo context at least with the weapon system even remotely like it is right now because it just wrecks erppc/ppc and srm mechs;
...

and then we never get to see the novacat because it's all energy and the heat scale would make it suck;

Exactly HOW does would a heat affects table 'wreck' ERPPC/PPC and SRM 'mechs? How would a heat affects table 'make a Novacat suck'?

Quote

where as less heat intensive weapon systems like the ones that use ammunition don't actually suffer the lower mobility- etc -etc -etc.

Only two weapons systems have low enough heat generation to make that statement true: Gauss, and MG's. Both of those weapon systems already have extreme limitations that would keep them in balance with a heat affects table active, so you have no real point here.

Would it take missile and ballistics boats longer to build up heat than a 12 laser Nova.

Absolutely.

BUT, it was never really intended that a 'mech should be allowed to alpha over and over and over and over as fast as possible with pretty much zero risk. That's stupid to assume it should be that way.

Quote

so yeah you would be nerfing trebuchet awesome quickdraw so you can pad your dual gauss dire some moarp

I'm not sure how a heat affects table allows me to 'pad' (define this, though for now I'll assume you mean 'pad' my kill count) a gauss carrying 'mech. Gauss with it's lowest DPS/T status in the game is actually VERY under powered when used by itself. If all you have is dual gauss on your 'mech, your DPS will be very low, no way around it, and once you're out of ammo (if you're not dead from the very explody gauss itself) you're game is pretty much over anyway.

NOW, gauss with other weapons is quite powerful because the gauss allows 30 points of FLPPD for extremely low heat, either taking advantage of what your other hotter weapons have done, or allowing your other hotter weapons to take advantage of its damage.

Now, considering that gauss is stacked with other weapons and those other weapons generate heat, a heat affects table would also end up affecting gauss performance too.

It's just that certain people want to have their cake and to eat it too, by allowing hot builds to fire at incredible firing rates, as compared to gauss, with incredible DPS, as compared to gauss, and they don't want to have to risk ANY small temporary inconvenience that a heat affects table might bring to their habit of vomiting every f'ing weapon at once, every time the weapons are ready to fire, as quickly as they are ready to fire.

[LordBraxton]

F..... this thread and any like it

[TLBFestus]

MeiSooHaityu, on 08 October 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

I was going to write this huge write up about how balance is important in an online competitive game and how the OP is wrong, but it isn't worth my time and energy for a troll thread.

So.....

Instead, enjoy this picture of a cute kitten!


Awwwweee it's so cute! look how cute he is!

BE WARNED! Last time kitten pictures appeared the Mods deleted the posts. They must really hate kittens, or kittens aren't as they appear.

Edited by TLBFestus, 08 October 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 October 2015 - 09:32 AM, said:

Right because turn-based board games translate directly to real time first person tactical shooters right?

Seriously, lore was blatantly unbalanced anyway, how can you even argue that lore would bring balance to MWO?

Well, first you have to read "appropriate balance".

Clans are supposed to be OP. Putting their mechs on-par with IS is a bad idea. In TT, Clan groups were not organized like the IS. A Clan Binary (two Stars for 10 mechs) would go up against an IS Company. Now, PGI has stated, for some odd reason, that this is not possible with Cryengine. The alternative would be (as PGI implemented), differing available tonnage in CW. One thing I would like to try (and it's not perfect, but it's something) is in the public queue, make the Clan mechs count for as a higher weight class than they are (except assaults because duh). No matter how you slice it, putting Clans 1:1 with IS was never supposed to happen or work.

Secondly, with our mechlab, balance is tough at the best of times. Weapon quirks should only exist to support the stock loadouts of the mechs (and this includes Heroes and Champions too). Structure quirks need work, but are generally OK. My new favorite slogan: "With our mechlab, if your mech is not viable or DOA, you're doing it wrong."

I am putting aside my crusade against the meta here too btw.

Next, we have the "holy trinity" of weapons: Ballistic, Energy, Missile. Using the TT stats as a starting point, we need to narrow down aspects of these weapons. My list is:

Energy: High heat, low weight, low overhead.
Ballistic: Low heat, high weight, high overhead.
Missile: Medium heat, medium weight, high overhead.

As you can see, there is unbalance in my list. Each system must have a weakness worse than the other two, but it also must have a strength better than the other two. High overhead being ammo dependency.

Last but not least is heat. Heat is a mechanic we are all very familiar with. I posted a list which wasn't perfect, and I stated as such. God, there were people rushing out to tattoo it on themselves just so they say it was defacto the way I thought things should be. No matter how you slice it, we need a dynamic heat penalty system for running hot. While this may on the surface seem to buff the GR, there are other things you can do. Remember the days of it being a glass cannon? I am ok with a 4x GR Daishi, I know that cost a lot in weight for the weapon and the ammo, a lot of weight. Add on it being a glass cannon and something else (maybe reduce charge up the hotter you are running. use a buff instead of a nerf).

Point is, putting a red stamp on lore saying it's sh*t is very short sighted. I prefer to use things to my advantage instead.

[Apnu]

MeiSooHaityu, on 08 October 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

I was going to write this huge write up about how balance is important in an online competitive game and how the OP is wrong, but it isn't worth my time and energy for a troll thread.

So.....

Instead, enjoy this picture of a cute kitten!


Awwwweee it's so cute! look how cute he is!

Fluffiness is OP!

[Homeskilit]

I like how the OP uses cars as an analogy to prove his point but fails to recognize that in all forms of car competitions there are rules governing the events in order to provide a balanced playing field.

[Macksheen]

Mazzyplz, on 08 October 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

the thing about one bad card in magic is that you can NEED TO have 56 other cards in your deck (if you even choose to have 4 of the bad card) so you are not relying on it; it's not like in mwo that you are driving said thing and only said thing - i am going thru the article though, may come to edit this down the line

A few things though remain constant...

• CONTEXT is important - some mechs and builds are better in CW than solo pug than group queue than tonnage-limited or resource-limited events (or weekend events).
  
• Part of the game IS the metagame, which changes and evolves.
  
• Part of the game is also the players trying to figure out what can and should work together and be "good"
  
• etc.

[Dimento Graven]

TLBFestus, on 08 October 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

BE WARNED! Last time kitten pictures appeared the Mods deleted the posts. They must really hate kittens, or kittens aren't as they appear.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure one is allergic to cats and thought the pictures were making them itch or something.

[Mazzyplz]

Dimento Graven, on 08 October 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

It's just that certain people want to have their cake and to eat it too, by allowing hot builds to fire at incredible firing rates, as compared to gauss, with incredible DPS, as compared to gauss, and they don't want to have to risk ANY small temporary inconvenience that a heat affects table might bring to their habit of vomiting every f'ing weapon at once, every time the weapons are ready to fire, as quickly as they are ready to fire.

yeah and what about cover? this is fine and dandy if we assume there is no terrain in the game.

but when you can shoot gauss, shoot your lasers and get behind a rock for 3 seconds; you won't get any of the return fire, and the 12 laser nova will still overheat faster. - just due to dissipation

Quote

Would it take missile and ballistics boats longer to build up heat than a 12 laser Nova.

Absolutely.

BUT, it was never really intended that a 'mech should be allowed to alpha over and over and over and over as fast as possible with pretty much zero risk. That's stupid to assume it should be that way.

so driving a 12 hardpoint energy mech SHOULD be an exercise in futility you say?
i disagree. there's no reason to make such a mech worse "just because"
especially when we all know a nova can NOT alpha over and over it's energy weapons; heat is bad enough as it is; you cannot even shoot 10 of the er medlaser without a shutdown - i used to drive the trial nova all the time, just for fun. you cannot not shoot 9-10 let alone 12
so that part of your statement is pure fabrication.



do you mean small lasers?

maybe a nerf to small laser cooldown may be more fitting

Edited by Mazzyplz, 08 October 2015 - 10:09 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

oh my god.