50 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I've been swapping back and fourth in CW weekly between Clan and IS, I also listen to a bunch of people saying Clans are OP and also others saying IS quirks are OP. At the moment I'm just looking to compare what some consider the best IS heavy for CW to what most consider the worst Clan heavy.

Thunderbolt vs Summoner.

My comparison goes as follows:

Similarities:
-Firepower: both can put out similar amounts of damage in either alpha or DPS
-Armor: Summoner comes with slightly more armor, but slightly means only 4 more points on CT
-Heat: Running Summoner with dual LPL+dual MPL you get the same heat as Thunderbolt with 8 MPL, Summoner can get up to a 4% energy heat decrease quirk while Thud gets 12.5%
-Size: both are about the same size and both can have or remove the missile pod
-ECM: neither gets it


Differences:
-Jumping: Only two Thunderbolts can jump, and neither fly as high as the Summoner
-Speed: Summoner is faster than a Thud with the largest possible engine and gets a 5% speed boost ontop of that, also it gets between 20% and 32.5% Accel/Decel quirks that the thunderbolt doesn't have.
-Hardpoints: Thunderbolt has more hardpoints and they are up higher than the Summoner, but they are mostly torso mounted while the Summoner's are arm mounted mostly.
-Range: the Thud-5SS gets quirks that put its MPL range up to that of a clan MPL without TC, any other lasers would be shorter range
-Engines: Clan XL vs IS STD/XL

So in the Differences Summoner beats the Thud out in 4 out of 5 of the ones I came up with. At the moment I'm sure Summoner isn't nearly as bad as many people claim it to be. Its no Timber Wolf but neither is anything else.

Does the worst Clan heavy beat the best IS heavy? What do you think? Consider what each one can be used for: brawling, long range, skirmishing, hit and run; which sitations happen the most; and how many times each one would win in on average.

[Revis Volek]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

I've been swapping back and fourth in CW weekly between Clan and IS, I also listen to a bunch of people saying Clans are OP and also others saying IS quirks are OP. At the moment I'm just looking to compare what some consider the best IS heavy for CW to what most consider the worst Clan heavy.

Thunderbolt vs Summoner.

My comparison goes as follows:

Similarities:
-Firepower: both can put out similar amounts of damage in either alpha or DPS
-Armor: Summoner comes with slightly more armor, but slightly means only 4 more points on CT
-Heat: Running Summoner with dual LPL+dual MPL you get the same heat as Thunderbolt with 8 MPL, Summoner can get up to a 4% energy heat decrease quirk while Thud gets 12.5%
-Size: both are about the same size and both can have or remove the missile pod
-ECM: neither gets it


Differences:
-Jumping: Only two Thunderbolts can jump, and neither fly as high as the Summoner
-Speed: Summoner is faster than a Thud with the largest possible engine and gets a 5% speed boost ontop of that, also it gets between 20% and 32.5% Accel/Decel quirks that the thunderbolt doesn't have.
-Hardpoints: Thunderbolt has more hardpoints and they are up higher than the Summoner, but they are mostly torso mounted while the Summoner's are arm mounted mostly.
-Range: the Thud-5SS gets quirks that put its MPL range up to that of a clan MPL without TC, any other lasers would be shorter range
-Engines: Clan XL vs IS STD/XL

So in the Differences Summoner beats the Thud out in 4 out of 5 of the ones I came up with. At the moment I'm sure Summoner isn't nearly as bad as many people claim it to be. Its no Timber Wolf but neither is anything else.

Does the worst Clan heavy beat the best IS heavy? What do you think? Consider what each one can be used for: brawling, long range, skirmishing, hit and run; which sitations happen the most; and how many times each one would win in on average.

This is literally no comparison...

Thud wins, hands down.

The Summoner has no where near the tank ability the thud has, is WAY bigger then the Thud or the TBR and does not have the hard points to be anywhere near as powerful dmg dealer.

Not to mention Locked equipment which is locked tonnage. The summoner really is that bad....why do you think you dont see any?

[Monkey Lover]

Pilot skills being the same the only way a summoner is going to kill a tbolt is with a jump sniper at range. Everything else the summoner would die.

[bad arcade kitty]

well, summoner isn't that bad as people picture it, it's hardly news

Monkey Lover, on 08 October 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

Pilot skills being the same the only way a summoner is going to kill a tbolt is with a jump sniper at range. Everything else the summoner would die.

unless it's a streak/splatmoner

[meteorol]

Mpl 5ss is vastly superior at close range, er ll 5ss at long range. 9se with 3lpl kills it at midrange. Srsly when playing IS CW my dropdecks contain 3 tdrs. The suckoner is not even close

Take a close look at those quirks. They put the tdr where it currently is.

Edited by meteorol, 08 October 2015 - 09:08 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

DarthRevis, on 08 October 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

This is literally no comparison...

Thud wins, hands down.

The Summoner has no where near the tank ability the thud has, is WAY bigger then the Thud or the TBR and does not have the hard points to be anywhere near as powerful dmg dealer.

Not to mention Locked equipment which is locked tonnage. The summoner really is that bad....why do you think you dont see any?

I do see them occasionally. Last one I saw pulled a 1100+ damage game with Gauss+PPC. I'm not really seeing the whole "Summoner is way bigger" point, Looking at their frontal profile without the missile pods on either of them the thud is actually very slightly taller.

I know the Summoner doesn't have as many hardpoints, but it can mount at least a 40-42 damage laser alpha with longer range and the heatsinks to cool it off. What builds are you seeing on Thunderbolts so I can get some more reference.

Also as for the locked equipment the Summoner still has 21 tons of pod space not counting the JJs. The thunderbolt with a 22 ton STD engine (summoner's engine is 22 tons) has 23 tons and moves slower if you went for the largest engine you'd have 17 tons, if you went for the largest XL you'd have about 28 tons but you'd die from ST loss. We should also remember Clan weaponry is lighter on average and the lasers do more damage.

[Aethon]

You are comparing one of the better IS heavies against what is probably the worst Clan heavy.

Apples and oranges.

Compare the Thunderbolt to the Timberwolf or Ebon Jaguar; much more fair comparison.

[Y E O N N E]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

I do see them occasionally. Last one I saw pulled a 1100+ damage game with Gauss+PPC. I'm not really seeing the whole "Summoner is way bigger" point, Looking at their frontal profile without the missile pods on either of them the thud is actually very slightly taller.

I know the Summoner doesn't have as many hardpoints, but it can mount at least a 40-42 damage laser alpha with longer range and the heatsinks to cool it off. What builds are you seeing on Thunderbolts so I can get some more reference.

Also as for the locked equipment the Summoner still has 21 tons of pod space not counting the JJs. The thunderbolt with a 22 ton STD engine (summoner's engine is 22 tons) has 23 tons and moves slower if you went for the largest engine you'd have 17 tons, if you went for the largest XL you'd have about 28 tons but you'd die from ST loss. We should also remember Clan weaponry is lighter on average and the lasers do more damage.

Thud will most commonly be using 7xMPL in 5SS trim or 3x LPL in 9SE trim.

[meteorol]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 October 2015 - 09:21 PM, said:

Thud will most commonly be using 7xMPL in 5SS trim or 3x LPL in 9SE trim.

In CW there are more 4er ll 5ss than 7xMpl. Those crazy range quirks give them even more range than clan er ll while having nice heat and cooldown quirks aswell.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Aethon, on 08 October 2015 - 09:17 PM, said:

You are comparing one of the better IS heavies against what is probably the worst Clan heavy.

Apples and oranges.

Compare the Thunderbolt to the Timberwolf or Ebon Jaguar; much more fair comparison.

That was the point of the comparison, to have the worst Clan heavy vs one of the better IS heavies. Not much to compare when you have the thunderbolt vs something like a Timberwolf. I'm mostly trying to get the point across that Summoner isn't nearly as bad or DOA or whatever as people call it, infact I find it to be on par with a Thunderbolt, though either chassis beats the other in some points, and if it weren't for quirks the Summoner would be downright superior.

[MechWarrior849305]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

TL

Make that comparison that way:

Make thud and suckoner with rougthly the same alpha and range builds (4xER LL thud vs 3xC-ER LL summ would go, both with range and cd modules, ok it's 36 vs 33, can't make it better), shooting each other from 1km away, getting 100% of hits (lets remove curved hands from calculation). They both shoot alpha-only into enemy mech's CT. Now you have only heat comparison in that calculation - how much time does it take to core a foe? Who will spend less time to kill a foe?

Edited by DuoAngel, 08 October 2015 - 09:40 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 09:08 PM, said:

I do see them occasionally. Last one I saw pulled a 1100+ damage game with Gauss+PPC. I'm not really seeing the whole "Summoner is way bigger" point, Looking at their frontal profile without the missile pods on either of them the thud is actually very slightly taller.

I know the Summoner doesn't have as many hardpoints, but it can mount at least a 40-42 damage laser alpha with longer range and the heatsinks to cool it off. What builds are you seeing on Thunderbolts so I can get some more reference.

Also as for the locked equipment the Summoner still has 21 tons of pod space not counting the JJs. The thunderbolt with a 22 ton STD engine (summoner's engine is 22 tons) has 23 tons and moves slower if you went for the largest engine you'd have 17 tons, if you went for the largest XL you'd have about 28 tons but you'd die from ST loss. We should also remember Clan weaponry is lighter on average and the lasers do more damage.

You can crunch numbers all day on paper but its doesnt play out like this in game....

Friend request me and lets duel...best way to tell right? I will take a whatever you dont and lets play 10 matches and see who wins.

There are lots of mech that on paper seem awesome, but when brought into this FPS game they are quite lack luster. Locked equipment, lack of hardpoints and bad location are some of the reasons. It has FF and NOT endo, a whooping 4 laser hardpoint and they are all on the arms.



Here is a great game in one....but its doesnt make me think any better of them because the stars align once and a while. That even happens for my MLX. once and a while but that does not mean it is better then a FS9 or a Urby for that matter.

Edited by DarthRevis, 08 October 2015 - 09:45 PM.

[Golden Vulf]

You are counting some of the Summoner's flaws as benefits!

The D-pod arms are the only way to get 4 energy hard points, are low slung. What they have going for them is the ER laser quirks that slightly increase your dps, but they don't do anything to address the heat issues of clan energy weapons.

The IS Large Pulse does just as much damage as the Clan ER Large, but generates less heat and has a much briefer beam duration so most of the damage goes where you want it to. The TDR can also fire 3 Large Pulse lasers simultaneously without ghost heat.

Clan and IS weapons do pretty much the same amount of damage when you compare duration and cooldown, but the TDR has quirks to the nines. The Summoner is faster than other mechs in its weight class, so there's that.

[Revis Volek]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 08:41 PM, said:

....Running Summoner with dual LPL+dual MPL you get the same heat as Thunderbolt with 8 MPL, Summoner can get up to a 4% energy heat decrease quirk while Thud gets 12.5%....
.

This is also no comparison, the Thud has less range but it can fire that alpha 25% faster then most other IS mechs can.

The Thud can dish out 80 dmg before the SMN even gets cooled down from his first alpha of 42....Seems to me the thud is much better in that regard as well. Takes the Thud 2.75 seconds to get cooled down and let loose another, Its 3.25 for the SMN.

And you are right about the hit boxes. They are much closer then i remembered. Especially without the missle racks.

[Black Ivan]

Summoner does not have the firepower compared to 7 MPLS Thunderbolt. IMO Thunderbolt with modules and out mastered will win in most occasions. An 4 ER LL Laser will outrange the Summoner in anyway.

As mentioned before by somebody else I can't see the Summoner win as well, if the IS player does not make any serious mistakes. That does not mean that the Summoner is bad, but it is weaker than then 5SS T-Bolt

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

DuoAngel, on 08 October 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

TL

Make that comparison that way:

Make thud and suckoner with rougthly the same alpha and range builds (4xER LL thud vs 3xC-ER LL summ would go, both with range and cd modules, ok it's 36 vs 33, can't make it better), shooting each other from 1km away, getting 100% of hits (lets remove curved hands from calculation). They both shoot alpha-only into enemy mech's CT. Now you have only heat comparison in that calculation - how much time does it take to core a foe? Who will spend less time to kill a foe?

Alright, using those builds and without taking into consideration pilot skills and using a 22 ton engine in the thud to be similar to the summoner. I did my calculations under optimal range rather than 1km out due to math reasons and not wanting to calculate the dropoff. Heres what I got:

Thunderbolt (before quirks):
8 max DPS
3.28 DPS without overheating
7.11 Heat per second
59.8 Heat cap
2.98 Dissapation

Thunderbolt (after quirks)
9.2 max dps
3.28 DPS without overheating
7.11 Heat per second
59.8 Heat cap
2.98 Dissapation

Summoner (before quirks and without modules)
6.95 max dps
3.89 DPS without overheating
6.32 Heat per second
66.8 heat cap
3.68 Dissapation

Summoner (after quirks and without modules)
7.30 max dps
4.05 DPS without overheating
6.07 Heat per second
66.8 heat cap
3.68 Dissapation

Now for the armor+structure of each if they put all armor on CT front.
Summoner: 88 + 44 = 132
Thunderbolt: 84 + 42 = 126

if both pilots were firing without overheating
Summoner destroys Thunderbolt in about 31 seconds
Thunderbolt destroys Summoner in about 40 seconds

If both pilots were firing at max DPS
Summoner destroys Thunderbolt in about 17 seconds.
Thunderbolt destroys Summoner in about 14 seconds.
Thunderbolt would overheat in 14 seconds but doesn't by about 0.1 heat
Summoner would have still been under 70% heat

This comparison shows the Thunderbolt winning, but isn't quite a good comparison. As soon as the map is slightly more than heat neutral the Summoner has won due to Thunderbolt overheating. If the Thunderbolt was over 0% heat (aka running its engine) it would have also overheated before finishing the Summoner. Also in what reality would two mechs just stand still and constantly fire lasers at each other's CT without any twisting or movement.

If we were going by poking the Summoner has high manuverabilty to allow it to side peek better and jump jets to allow it to poptart. If we were going by a brawl all damage wouldn't be sent to the CT and the Thud would not kill the Summoner without overheating.

Here are the builds I used for the comparison.
Thud: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8fa7a09fdcd6d8e
Summoner: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f03df8bc2d5995b

EDIT: of course if we were going for DPS though there are better loadouts for it than alpha strike builds.

Edited by Dakota1000, 08 October 2015 - 10:25 PM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

SMN has lower firepower, but is more fun to play.

[KinLuu]

Thunderbolt vs. Hellbringer / Ebon Jaguar would be a much fairer comparison.

The Summoner is hopeless, unless it gets some new omnipods or gets some of its locked equipment unlocked.

[LordNothing]

the summoner is one of those misunderstood mechs. i have never considered it underpowered, i have liked it since its first run. it was so effective i put it in my cw drop deck before it was basiced and had superior results over my other mechs (all mastered). i mastered all 3 of mine in under 48 hours. i kind of expected that out of the tbolt and was kind of disapointed, it had to be mastered to shine (of course this seems to be a common issue with laser vomit mechs, you need all those heat buffs that come from basic, elite). my current deck has a thud but i keep missing my summoner from back when i was clan aligned.

summoner's advantage is its mobility. it can climb up to places where you would normally see jump jetted lights go and rain down with heavy firepower. this makes it really useful on several cw maps like forge or hellbore. if armed with snap shot weapons it can snipe and hide before the enemy knows what hit him. as a hit and run bot, poptart sniper, or flanker its a great little mech. it also has an 'aura of meh' where people dont consider it a tier one threat and shoot at another mech instead (and usually has them regretting it a half second later).

one thing to get over is that it favors big guns over arrays of smaller weapons. a lot of people view this as being underpowered, but it kinda forces you to use those heavy weapons that you never get to play with. stick on a uac10 and a ppc and go to town. most importantly its something to break up the laser vomit monotony of running other heavies.

Edited by LordNothing, 08 October 2015 - 10:45 PM.

[Aethon]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 09:39 PM, said:

That was the point of the comparison, to have the worst Clan heavy vs one of the better IS heavies. Not much to compare when you have the thunderbolt vs something like a Timberwolf. I'm mostly trying to get the point across that Summoner isn't nearly as bad or DOA or whatever as people call it, infact I find it to be on par with a Thunderbolt, though either chassis beats the other in some points, and if it weren't for quirks the Summoner would be downright superior.

Quirks are how the game is being balanced, though; PGI is trying to put Clan and IS mechs on even footing, which was never supposed to happen. As a result, they are having to do weird stuff with the IS mechs to make them work. It is also necessary for some designs that work great in tabletop, but do not transfer well to an FPS environment.

As for the Summoner being superiour without quirks...I can think of one build that might be, but SRM's are inferior to IS laserspam, as the latter is much more accurate, and can be used to slice open a CT before the shotgunning missiles manage to get through. Depends on the pilots' skill levels, as well as the variant of each mech in question. Personally, I feel it is a wash between these two.