65 replies to this topic

[Tsar Bomba]

Please pay respect to the old assault mech. The grandpa of the Battletech game.

They've aged so much in MWO that they are the biggest and most expensive mechs but must be cared for and escorted by the rest of the team lest a single light whippersnapper mech should harass it and dance around it costing and weighing less than a third of the mighty assault mech but easily making the poor useless old assault mech trip and fall down and break its hip.

The slowest mech needs to keep up with the fastest mechs or else the smallest mech costing a third of the big mech will kill it without taking any damage.

Doesn't that illogical nonsense sound like a fun game?

Speed has always been the death of assaults in MWO's rock-scissors-paper game design, but the DPS for the scissors has jumped dramatically in two years while the armor for the rock has stayed the same. Making the scissors a good or better fight for the rock and the paper an auto-win vs the rock, making the rock pretty useless but also still the most expensive to buy. That doesn't make sense PGI.

I can't keep up with the herd, and I can't fight alone. What are you leaving me with PGI? What plan did you have for the assault? Is this it?

Edited by Tsar Bomba, 09 October 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Its a common problem. The lights race off and the mediums follow them. Mediums should stick with the assaults and the assaults stick together.

Light have to do whats best for their loud out.

[FupDup]

Here's a fun old thread to read through for enlightenment: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[wanderer]

Like any behemoth ship, assaults need their "fighter escort", and that's light 'Mechs.

Woe to the light that goes hunting whales only to find it's escorts chasing them into the assault's guns. Not that most PUGs realize this in their desire for NASCAR: Rambo Edition.

[Alistair Winter]

First of all, PGI has decided that C-bill cost has zero impact on actual balancing in the matches. So whether your assault mech is ten times more expensive than a Firestarter or ten times cheaper is completely irrelevant in this game. Sadly. Assault mechs are basically just extra content that take longer to unlock. They're not supposed to be better.

Second, there are relatively few light mechs and relatively few light mech builds that can actually 1v1 assault mechs and be expected to win more than 50% of the time. The pulse laserboat Firestarters, Jenners and ACH's are up there. Few others. But there are quite a few assault mechs that can 1v1 light mechs and be expected to win more than 50% of the time. Most assault mechs laserboats will go through skinny light mech legs like butter. And then you have high alpha gauss/ppc carriers who can take out any light mech in one or two alphas, if the player is good enough.

Third, light mechs are screwed if their assault mechs are bad pilots too. We're talking about pug matches where you can't expect your teammates to look after each other, where it's every man and woman for themselves. Well, if you look at matches where assault mechs refuse to do their job, it pretty much means that someone else has to do the tanking. And quite often, this means that nobody wants to tank. Because Jagermechs and Ebon Jaguars really can't absorb a lot of damage. And when nobody's tanking, those light mechs trying to create distractions will often get singled out and stomped while their assault lance is hiding behind cover. In other words, assault mechs have a vital part to play. Everyone depends on them as much as they depend on everyone else. There's no imbalance in this regard. Except that Timber Wolves don't need help from nobody, but that's a separate discussion.

Fourth... the assault mechs have basically every advantage in the game, except speed. If you want them to have more speed, you may as well give them the epic flying mounts from World of Warcraft and a tome of town portals that takes them back to Tristram when they get in trouble.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 09 October 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[Tsar Bomba]

FupDup, on 09 October 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:

Here's a fun old thread to read through for enlightenment: http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

Quote

Even breaking a problem down in a different way does not solve the issue. If we say that for a mech to be "Quick":

• Lights need to go 120 kph
  
• Mediums need to go 100 kph
  
• Heavies need to go 80 kph
  
• Assaults need to go 60 kph

How does going 60 help me keep up with 80-120kph mechs?

Quote

This leads to my following recommendation: cut the turn / twist / arm speeds of every mech in the game. Currently everything is too fast (especially Heavy and Assault mechs).

Sorry, but his summation is that Assaults need to be slower especially in turn and twist. That's exactly opposite of what is needed.

That's a terrible post to add to this discussion.

Edited by Tsar Bomba, 09 October 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[Kodyn]

It's intended to be a team game.

Humans are by and large selfish creatures, often lazy, and seek quick gratification.

You can see how this all works out, right? It's just reality in microcosm, sometimes some people work well together. Usually, most do not, and just do what suits their interests.

You want actual team-oriented play, you have to join a unit. Otherwise, you've pretty much got to accept that dropping in solo queue can and will result in all sorts of undesired behavior from your fellows.

[Tsar Bomba]

wanderer, on 09 October 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Like any behemoth ship, assaults need their "fighter escort", and that's light 'Mechs.

Woe to the light that goes hunting whales only to find it's escorts chasing them into the assault's guns. Not that most PUGs realize this in their desire for NASCAR: Rambo Edition.

Uhhh... no. Just NO.

Go play World of Warships and see what happens when a destroyer thinks it can 'dance around' a Battleship and suffer no damage.

Or better, go look at real world WW2 destroyer charges vs cruisers and battleships even lone BBs and see the devastation that resulted to the DDs.

[FupDup]

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

That thread offers a solution of allowing the lights to go faster.

How does going 60 help me keep up with 80-120kph mechs?

Sorry, but his summation is that Assaults need to be slower especially in turn and twist. That's exactly opposite of what is needed.

That's a terrible post to add to this discussion.

The point is that fat mech agility isn't usually as bad as people can make it out to be, and they can often handle themselves even against little fasties.

Only the Dire Whale has consistent issues with tracking, and even then he can just put his back to a wall, shoot the target BEFORE it gets close, and/or let his teammates swat the fly.

Edited by FupDup, 09 October 2015 - 03:40 PM.

[Tsar Bomba]

Kodyn, on 09 October 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

It's intended to be a team game.

Humans are by and large selfish creatures, often lazy, and seek quick gratification.

You can see how this all works out, right? It's just reality in microcosm, sometimes some people work well together. Usually, most do not, and just do what suits their interests.

You want actual team-oriented play, you have to join a unit. Otherwise, you've pretty much got to accept that dropping in solo queue can and will result in all sorts of undesired behavior from your fellows.

What unit? CW has a tiny fraction of players that random matches do.

FupDup, on 09 October 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

The point is that fat mech agility isn't usually as bad as people can make it out to be, and they can often handle themselves even against little fasties.

Only the Dire Whale has consistent issues with tracking, and even then he just put his back to a wall, shoot the target BEFORE it gets close, and/or let his teammates swat the fly.

Yea, well he's wrong. Engine numbers don't take into account open maps or not being able to even put a crosshair on your enemy.

There's plenty of open maps since that post was made. Putting your 'back to a wall' isn't always an option especially when you're trying to catch up'.

Edited by Tsar Bomba, 09 October 2015 - 03:42 PM.

[wanderer]

This isn't World of Warships, and light 'Mechs are more akin to aircraft vs. big ship than small ship vs. big ship.

The latter would be more like a medium 'Mech trying to take down an assault head-on.

[Tsar Bomba]

I guess what I am asking is...

Does anyone that doesn't drive a smaller mech want to respond to this thread?

I know how the mediums and lights feel from the above posts.

wanderer, on 09 October 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Like any behemoth ship, assaults need their "fighter escort", and that's light 'Mechs.

Woe to the light that goes hunting whales only to find it's escorts chasing them into the assault's guns. Not that most PUGs realize this in their desire for NASCAR: Rambo Edition.

You're the one who brought up the ship analogy.

wanderer, on 09 October 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

This isn't World of Warships, and light 'Mechs are more akin to aircraft vs. big ship than small ship vs. big ship.

The latter would be more like a medium 'Mech trying to take down an assault head-on.

But now that analogy is wrong... so you were wrong?

Got it. You're wrong. Accepted.

[FupDup]

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:44 PM, said:

I guess what I am asking is...

Does anyone that doesn't drive a smaller mech want to respond to this thread?

I know how the mediums and lights feel from the above posts.

My favorite mechs right now are the Hellbringer (heavy), Cauldron Born (heavy), and Warhawk (assault). Argument invalidated.




I think it's also pretty silly of you to want to exclude certain weight classes from the discussion, it reeks of "buff rock, nerf paper, leave scissors alone."

[Burktross]

How to kill light mechs, written by a light mech pilot.
1) Do you have laser vomit?
-YES: Go to 2
-NO: Go to 3

2) Spray laservomit at legs
--Go to 5

3) Do you have high damage, pinpoint weapons?
-YES: Go to 4
-NO: What the **** are you doing in an assault then?

4) Fire at center of mass, lead where appropriate
--Go to 5

5) ???
--Go to 6

6) Light mech is kill unless you can't aim or the light deserves to live because of his piloting skill

[wanderer]

Quote

You're the one who brought up the ship analogy.

And the one who compared lights to fighters. You somehow turned "aircraft" into a comparison to them being destroyers- and ships. I was comparing the assault 'Mech to said behemoth ship, the lights to the aircraft that were the bane of ships without similar air cover in WWII and beyond.

Quote

But now that analogy is wrong... so you were wrong?

You failed at reading comprehension, so I'm wrong? Er, no.

[zagibu]

I often pilot and Atlas and yes, it can be frustrating if you are left alone and multiple ankle biters show up. But that's supposed to be the assault mech's weakness, you know.

I do agree, though, that some light mechs have incredible DPS due to quirks. I just try to put as much damage down their little throats as possible, then get out and play the next match.

[MoonUnitBeta]

I think we should just flat out hard code allowable distances from Assaults. Since Assaults are considered the anchors of the team, make it so light mechs can only get 300m away from them, mediums 250, and heavies 200m. That is radius, so double the amount to get a total allowable travel distance

That's the best most excellent idea ever.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 09 October 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Tsar Bomba]

Sorry had to put a bunch of trolls on ignore. Just going to respond to rational posts now.

zagibu, on 09 October 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

I often pilot and Atlas and yes, it can be frustrating if you are left alone and multiple ankle biters show up. But that's supposed to be the assault mech's weakness, you know.

Right. I included that in my OP. The death of the assault is speed. Accepted. But when the defense of that is only keeping up with faster mech for protection, AND the mech that needs protection is the most expensive of them all (in C-Bills and real money) then there is no response to the light attacks.

Quote

I do agree, though, that some light mechs have incredible DPS due to quirks. I just try to put as much damage down their little throats as possible, then get out and play the next match.

Same as me, but that's scraps gaming. You're not equal. The thing that beats you (paper v rock) is very effective. The thing you beat (rock vs scissors) is now almost as good at DPS as you are and armor in a CT coring game like MWO with little randomization like the board game is less useful, AND that your CT is easier to hit than theirs makes the Rock not so great vs the scissors.

Edited by Tsar Bomba, 09 October 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[aniviron]

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

I guess what I am asking is...

Does anyone that doesn't drive a smaller mech want to respond to this thread?

I know how the mediums and lights feel from the above posts.

I drive every class of mech. The most recent mechs I leveled were a trio of Dire Wolves.

Sorry OP, I just think you're wrong. Dire Wolf is the slowest mech in the game with the worst twist and turn speeds, and it's enough to engage fast targets, especially because I usually only have to land one or two shots to kill or cripple the light mech.

Even in my Awesomes and King Crabs, my favourite mechs, I have no issues at all. KGC is downright easy to track lights in, and the Awesome does just fine as well. As an assault you have more firepower and more armor than anyone else. If you and the other assaults spawn in a bad position, tell your teammates and most of the time they will be happy to come help you instead of losing a few assaults.

Also, your contention that assaults cost ten times more than lights is just flat out wrong. Just grabbing the first light and first assault I see from the hot list on Smurfy's comes up with FS9-S and KGC-000. However, lights can run up to ~13m CB, and some assaults like the Stalker and Awesome can run as low as 9m.

[Death Proof]

*Walks in...looks around for the player called Grandpa Mech...then walks out*