103 replies to this topic

[R Razor]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 October 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

That is still a poor comparison. Vocalizing my opinion (that differs from yours) doesn't make me a problem for society.

No it doesn't, but vocalizing your opinion and then attacking (see "Clueless Crowds" for example) anyone that doesn't agree with your opinion or that has opinions that differ from your opinion does in fact make you a problem (however minor) for the community.

[pwnface]

R Razor, on 09 October 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

People that marginalize any opinion that doesn't agree with theirs and that are "quite vocal" about it, generally lack the cognitive abilities necessary to fully understand much of anything at all, and yes, that includes this game. So, if that description fits YOU then I suppose I did indeed say that I don't think you understand the game.

You might believe that vaccinations cause autism, that doesn't mean I shouldn't marginalize your opinion because you have an opinion, it means I should marginalize your opinion because your opinion is stupid.

Just as a doctor is more qualified to give you an opinion on your illness, certain players are more qualified to talk about game play balance.

[Gas Guzzler]

R Razor, on 09 October 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

No it doesn't, but vocalizing your opinion and then attacking (see "Clueless Crowds" for example) anyone that doesn't agree with your opinion or that has opinions that differ from your opinion does in fact make you a problem (however minor) for the community.

I didn't attack anyone who doesn't agree with my opinion. I didn't say that every other opinion is wrong and mine is right. I have seen several good well thought out opinions, that I don't 100% agree with. There is also a lot of theories on balance that I strongly disagree with, and feel like they do not come from someone who understands the game.

[R Razor]

pwnface, on 09 October 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

You might believe that vaccinations cause autism, that doesn't mean I shouldn't marginalize your opinion because you have an opinion, it means I should marginalize your opinion because your opinion is stupid.

Just as a doctor is more qualified to give you an opinion on your illness, certain players are more qualified to talk about game play balance.

No, certain players are most certainly not qualified to talk about balance.........not until they provide PROOF, like say a doctor has to provide a medical degree, that they are qualified. Sorry, being good at a twitch shooter does not make you a programmer or game developer. Beliefs of this nature are the direct result of being raised in the age of "participation trophies".

It's easy to see why you would agree though, immediately resort to insults because you lack the intelligence necessary to discuss a topic rationally.

[R Razor]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 October 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

I didn't attack anyone who doesn't agree with my opinion. I didn't say that every other opinion is wrong and mine is right. I have seen several good well thought out opinions, that I don't 100% agree with. There is also a lot of theories on balance that I strongly disagree with, and feel like they do not come from someone who understands the game.

When you make a blanket statement that includes insinuating that your audience members are a part of a "clueless crowd" you are in fact attacking them in a manner of speaking. As I said above, unless you are a game developer and designer (not you specifically but anyone posting about balance issues) then your opinion is no more or less valid than the opinion of a glass of milk with regards to the direction the game needs to go. Some opinions may make more sense to you than to others, and some more to others than you, but all have a place.

[Gas Guzzler]

The Atlas Overlord, on 09 October 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Must be obvious day



1) Agreeing with an option =/= "Thinking it's valid" (sic). Agreeing with an opinion just means you also choose to believe said thing without any evidence. B/c that's the definition of the word.

2) An opinion literally cannot be valid. Valid is a term used to describe certain logical arguments. Claiming an opinion is valid is a flat out contradiction, which ironically is also a term used in logic that has an actual definition.

3) Seriously, pick up a dictionary.

4) Good lord you love to strawman.



I guess you've just never seen a light used to it's full potential.

It's pretty sad to watch, honestly.

Much wow you're incredibly smart and wise. Now just apply all that intellectual prowess to figuring out how to kill a light mech with an assault mech.

I know what valid means. I also know that there is no logical reasoning behind the idea that "MWO would be balanced if it was balanced like TT", when the mechanics of the two are 100% different. It's more of a plea for a certain type of gameplay that appeals to the person calling for more TT in MWO.

[MrJeffers]

The Atlas Overlord, on 09 October 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

Must be obvious day



1) Agreeing with an option =/= "Thinking it's valid" (sic). Agreeing with an opinion just means you also choose to believe said thing without any evidence. B/c that's the definition of the word.

2) An opinion literally cannot be valid. Valid is a term used to describe certain logical arguments. Claiming an opinion is valid is a flat out contradiction, which ironically is also a term used in logic that has an actual definition.

3) Seriously, pick up a dictionary.

I suggest you check your dictionary, because it's Faith that is a belief in the absence of (or in conflict with) facts.

Opinions are beliefs based on personal history. They can be 100% correct, but they can also be wrong when in conflict with the facts:
1) My opinion, pepperoni pizza is the best pizza. (Factual - 100% valid and correct because it IS my favorite pizza type).
2) I believe the world is flat. (Opinion, 100% wrong).
3 ) Macros are cheating (Opinion, 100% wrong since macros are allowed).

Edited by MrJeffers, 09 October 2015 - 01:03 PM.

[pwnface]

The Atlas Overlord, on 09 October 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

I guess you've just never seen a light used to it's full potential.

It's pretty sad to watch, honestly.

Lights can 1v1 terrible assault pilots.
Assaults can 1v1 terrible light pilots.

I know perfectly well how it's possible to 1v1 an assault mech if played correctly but a good assault pilot should win a vast majority of the time.

[Aresye]

I'm kind of glad PGI hasn't said much in terms of what they want to do with balance. I'd rather they take a giant step back and distance themselves from all balance discussions on the forums. Lord Scarlett Johan said it best:

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 09 October 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

This community can't even agree on how mechs should look, much less balance.

Out of all the groups Johan mentioned, I feel like I'm part of the smallest minority of them all: The, "I like Clans but want things fairly balanced," crowd, which is such a small minority in the grand scope of things that it wasn't even mentioned. I dislike that mechs like the TBR and DWF are leagues above everything else in the game, but I also dislike how mechs like the BLR-1S and TDR-5SS have the longest range ERLL of everything else in the game. Everything is messed up because a few IS mechs were brought up to try and compete with the best Clan mechs, turning those IS mechs into very OP chassis themselves in certain situations.

Nobody wants to budge an inch. A great video gets posted on how to help the sub par Clan chassis, but nobody wants to do that for fear of making the TBR or DWF worse. Likewise, nobody wants to do anything more with excessive quirks because they don't want to see another TDR-9S CW ERPPC fest. In the middle of all this you have the Clan-fanatics who believe that Clans SHOULD be massively OP and want uneven teams to compensate, and the oldschool IS-fanatics that have held grudges against Clans since their introduction to BT and want nothing less than to see Clan mechs relegated down to complete uselessness in this game.

Now add the different player archetypes such as the competitive, "gotta win," players, the, "I just want to have fun players," and the, "I can do good and be competitive without the meta," players.

FFS, just as I'm writing this post I'm getting notifications saying there's 31+ new replies added. People are arguing over balance and balance threads at a rate faster than I can simply put thoughts into words surrounding the actual issues and what the OP is talking about, and balance discussions themselves are no different. People have their short handed opinion that they repeat over and over, refusing to give up any territory, and shoot down each and every suggestion that doesn't line up with their preferred play style and/or personal bias, even if those suggestions are what's truly needed to help balance the game.

Thus I say again, I hope PGI stays silent. I don't know what happened with the forums as of late, but there's just no good ideas anymore without bias. I'd be more happy to see, "Patch Notes: Huge rebalancing incoming!" that includes, "We've been studying group, solo, and CW queue for X+ months to gather data for over X thousand matches. We've adjusted as many outlying mechs and weapons as possible to bring things as close together as possible," rather than, "Here's some ideas we're thinking about doing, what's your opinion forums?"

[Nothing Whatsoever]

pwnface, on 09 October 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

Just as a doctor is more qualified to give you an opinion on your illness, certain players are more qualified to talk about game play balance.

And you do know that a Diagnosis is a process right? There is a reason why they call it a "Practice", too often it can actually be a guessing game.

Doctors can be dead wrong. One almost killed my dad, got lucky that my neighbor was a nurse and was able to help us care for him recovering from surgery.



So the point for this discussion is don't disqualify what players respond with, and work to find the cause of problems, not simply treat the symptoms.

[Gas Guzzler]

R Razor, on 09 October 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

When you make a blanket statement that includes insinuating that your audience members are a part of a "clueless crowd" you are in fact attacking them in a manner of speaking. As I said above, unless you are a game developer and designer (not you specifically but anyone posting about balance issues) then your opinion is no more or less valid than the opinion of a glass of milk with regards to the direction the game needs to go. Some opinions may make more sense to you than to others, and some more to others than you, but all have a place.

Cool. That doesn't mean I can't express my opinion.

Let me ask you this. If I posted my opinion that in order to achieve balance, the Gauss rifle should have its cooldown halved and its damage doubled, and the explosion mechanic removed, would you think I knew what I was talking about?

[Mazzyplz]

gasguzzler and mcgral18's threads are solid;
these help counterbalance some of the horrible, terrible, facepalming ideas


the kid who said balance was unwanted.. LOL -
and there are others who propose things only with nostalgia glasses. > i can see why you would be tired of those threads

[R Razor]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 October 2015 - 01:04 PM, said:

Cool. That doesn't mean I can't express my opinion.

Let me ask you this. If I posted my opinion that in order to achieve balance, the Gauss rifle should have its cooldown halved and its damage doubled, and the explosion mechanic removed, would you think I knew what I was talking about?

Absolutely not, but I wouldn't insult you for having that opinion and lump you in as a member of a "clueless crowd" either just because I didn't agree with it.

[Phlinger]

Mazzyplz, on 09 October 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

i can see why you would be tired of those threads

Why does it matter if someone is tired of a thread? Just posing a question. Who are these people that feel their opinions are so valid that they need to quell others? Even if someone is wrong at least they have the same right to ask that question as someone asking the right question. This is how people learn, right?

[Mazzyplz]

R Razor, on 09 October 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

unless you are a game developer and designer

game developer means you're crushing bugs and coming up with methods and functions using variables to craft a software. a system. it has nothing to do with balancing the game;


designer on the other hand yes. but to be a game designer you don't just go to college - there is no recognized ranking of the top game designers who will balance a game; and some of the most expensive and marketed AAA games have game design that makes the game tank like ryse son of rome and destiny which are massive flops;

so in effect - the best game designers are by and large not working in the biggest companies; they are in many cases; unrecognized individuals.

[Gas Guzzler]

R Razor, on 09 October 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Absolutely not, but I wouldn't insult you for having that opinion and lump you in as a member of a "clueless crowd" either just because I didn't agree with it.

But you just said that you would think that I didn't know what I was talking about, which is essentially the same as clueless.

I guess you are a little nicer than I am, but not really because you resorted to cloaked insults in your response to my insulting comment.

[pwnface]

R Razor, on 09 October 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

It's easy to see why you would agree though, immediately resort to insults because you lack the intelligence necessary to discuss a topic rationally.

Please show me where I "resort to insults". I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.

[R Razor]

pwnface, on 09 October 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

it means I should marginalize your opinion because your opinion is stupid.

Short term memory loss is treatable by one of those Doctors you referenced by the way.

[Mazzyplz]

Quote

This is how people learn, right?

by making uneducated suggestions you are not just making a personal mistake that you learn from;

you are contributing noise to a conversation and in worst case scenario contributing in a negative fashion, born of ignorance about the subject at hand

these are topics that concern the community and the future of MWO;


it would also be selfish of me to presume i can learn how to cook by messing around with the dishes in a homeless shelter soup kitchen, that people will have to eat afterward

Edited by Mazzyplz, 09 October 2015 - 01:33 PM.

[pwnface]

R Razor, on 09 October 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Sorry, being good at a twitch shooter does not make you a programmer or game developer. Beliefs of this nature are the direct result of being raised in the age of "participation trophies".

MWO is hardly a twitch shooter and being a programmer and/or game developer doesn't mean you suddenly know how to balance a game correctly. The nerfinator has been in charge of balance forever and that's part of the reason why we have a million balance threads popping up. Just because you have a job title it doesn't mean you are any good at doing your job.

btw, I am also a programmer not that it matters in this discussion in the slightest.