65 replies to this topic

[MoonUnitBeta]

Death Proof, on 09 October 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

*Walks in...looks around for the player called Grandpa Mech...then walks out*

Plot twist... -YOU- are the Grandpa Mech!

duun... duuunnn... DUN!!!!!!!!!!

[Tsar Bomba]

MoonUnitBeta, on 09 October 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

I think we should just flat out hard code allowable distances from Assaults. Since Assaults are considered the anchors of the team, make it so light mechs can only get 300m away from them, mediums 250, and heavies 200m. That is radius, so double the amount to get a total allowable travel distance

That's the best most excellent idea ever.

No, I think little mechs running into bigger mechs should end up on their ass, and all mechs should be allowed to punch and kick anything near them.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

No, I think little mechs running into bigger mechs should end up on their ass, and all mechs should be allowed to punch and kick anything near them.

Well if we get that then i want this!

[Burktross]

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

No, I think little mechs running into bigger mechs should end up on their ass, and all mechs should be allowed to punch and kick anything near them.

YESSSSS PLEAAAAAASSSSEEEEEEEEEE!
I want to locust falcon kick the damaged cores of dire wolves.

[Tsar Bomba]

wanderer, on 09 October 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

And the one who compared lights to fighters. You somehow turned "aircraft" into a comparison to them being destroyers- and ships. I was comparing the assault 'Mech to said behemoth ship, the lights to the aircraft that were the bane of ships without similar air cover in WWII and beyond.

You failed at reading comprehension, so I'm wrong? Er, no.

Fighters don't escort ships. Ships do. Fighters do Combat Air Patrol. You said ESCORT in your original post.

You're comparing apples and oranges.

If you want to be comprehended, then you need to create comprehensible posts.

aniviron, on 09 October 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

Also, your contention that assaults cost ten times more than lights is just flat out wrong. Just grabbing the first light and first assault I see from the hot list on Smurfy's comes up with FS9-S and KGC-000. However, lights can run up to ~13m CB, and some assaults like the Stalker and Awesome can run as low as 9m.

Ok, even if you use stock mechs.. most don't.. then go with what I said. Three times (in the same post)

Edited by Tsar Bomba, 09 October 2015 - 04:10 PM.

[zagibu]

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Right. I included that in my OP. The death of the assault is speed. Accepted. But when the defense of that is only keeping up with faster mech for protection, AND the mech that needs protection is the most expensive of them all (in C-Bills and real money) then there is no response to the light attacks.

Same as me, but that's scraps gaming. You're not equal. The thing that beats you (paper v rock) is very effective. The thing you beat (rock vs scissors) is now almost as good at DPS as you are and armor in a CT coring game like MWO with little randomization like the board game is less useful, AND that your CT is easier to hit than theirs makes the Rock not so great vs the scissors.

Yeah, I agree the game has problems, and lots of the bigger mechs are pretty redundant now (Victor, anyone?), but I don't see this specific problem as one of the top priorities. There are more important things, like for example the boring, mind dulling laser vomit meta, or how whole weapon systems are so undesirable, you only mount them because you have free tonnage and like the graphics and sound effects. Also, inter-mech balance is still a disaster, with mechs that you never encounter on the battlefield, because they are just BAD (when is the last time you have seen a Kintaro? For me, it was probably last year). And last but not least, it would be absolutely great, if we could ever get something else besides 12 vs 12 hill humping deathball.

[Lostdragon]

I am in T3 and drive DWFS a lot, playing in the PUG queue only. I don't get left behind that often, but I usually know where my team will be going from experience and just head that way. If I do get left behind I always ask for escorts and probably 60ish % of the time I get it. I can solo a lot of light pilots but the best can stay behind me and core me out if I can't put my back to a wall.

Most of the assaults I see getting left behind are not doing their part to keep up with the team. You have to hit the full throttle button as soon as the dropship doors open and point yourself toward a likely convergence point for the team.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

What plan did you have for the assault? Is this it?

You exist to be farmed by the guys buying the new fast OP mech packs.

You are the fodder.

You are the replacement for slaughtering vast amounts of underpowered AI.

You are there to make them feel good about killing something that doesn't stand a chance.

The whole "trade armor and firepower for speed and agility." isn't a trade at all. Armor is worthless, and they don't actually end up giving firepower.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 09 October 2015 - 04:27 PM.

[Livewyr]

I feel like assaults should be given more armor (or just overall reduce the DPS) so that an assault actually is somewhat intimidating...

And bring back knockdowns.

[Rhavin]

I pilot a Warhawk B and a Cheetah, I have little problem with any other mech one on one. I have found that carrying a BAP in my assault helps against lights since the most popular lights tend to have ECM. They move in on me and ecm drops and my pug team notices the dorrito behind them and someone comes to help. One shot is all it takes to stop most lights though, you get an alpha to connect and critical an area and most will back off And look for easier prey , especially when they suspect backup is Incoming.

[Alistair Winter]

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Sorry had to put a bunch of trolls on ignore. Just going to respond to rational posts now.

This thread is progressing nicely.

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:45 PM, said:

I guess what I am asking is...
Does anyone that doesn't drive a smaller mech want to respond to this thread?
I know how the mediums and lights feel from the above posts.

You're asking for the opinion of people who only pilot heavies and assaults? Yep, that seems like the best way to get an objective answer about whether heavies and assaults should be buffed.

[Light-Speed]

I sympathize with you, man. I understand how frustrating it is to feel the stupidity of a team that just increased their chance of losing because they dumped their assaults. Never a good strategic decision, because typically there isn't much gained from doing so.

However, I want to comment on a couple issues.

First of all, just to clarify to some of you out there, I don't understand why sometimes people think the lights should be the ones to be the ones to blame for leaving the assaults.
There are the lights whose jobs specifically require them to be away from the main group. These are the scouts, assassins, and squirrels. It doesn't make sense to force them to work at a fifth of their efficiency by making them stay in the middle of the team adding their tiny alphas to that of the enormous weapon platforms. That's the job of the mediums and heavies.
What doesn't make sense even more are the mediums and heavies that follow straight behind the scouts and leaving the fatasses, thinking they could find something to shoot or an easier kill by following the lights that go twice as fast.

Really, what kind of logic is that?


Also:

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

The slowest mech needs to keep up with the fastest mechs or else the smallest mech costing a tenth of the big mech will kill it without taking any damage.

IMO, argument invalid. Here's why:

*eyes my legion of active lights worth 30+ million each*

*recalls how hard I have to work to stay on their backs and how easy so many assaults shake me off *

Yeah.

Seriously though, I have to take into account the terrain, watch your teammates and the map, watch your movement very carefully and predict them, and coordinate my physical movements in a battle against rapid changes of my orientation all at the same time in a multitasking cluster****, then you assaults kind of move a little and half the time I am screwed.
I am not teaching you the details though. Not that stupid.

Tsar Bomba, on 09 October 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

Speed has always been the death of assaults in MWO's rock-scissors-paper game design, but the DPS for the scissors has jumped dramatically in two years while the armor for the rock has stayed the same. Making the scissors a good or better fight for the rock and the paper an auto-win vs the rock, making the rock pretty useless but also still the most expensive to buy. That doesn't make sense PGI.

• Wait wait wait. So you hate rock-scissor-paper game design. Therefore we must promote the armor of the assaults so that heavies will never stand a chance against them?
  
• Forks are pretty useless for eating porridge.
  
• Expenses: see above
  
• Expenses #2: Do you know why people don't grind in a light?...

[Khobai]

Quote

Wait wait wait. So you hate rock-scissor-paper game design. Therefore we must promote the armor of the assaults so that heavies will never stand a chance against them?

heavies shouldnt stand a chance against them. thats what it means to be an assault mech.

we shouldnt have heavies zipping around at the speed of mediums with the firepower of assaults.

the heavy weight class need some serious rebalancing. Because the way the game is now, heavies not only make most mediums obsolete, but they make most assaults obsolete too.

medium mechs need their speed/agility advantage over heavies restored to them. assault mechs need their firepower/survivability advantage over heavies restored to them.

Edited by Khobai, 09 October 2015 - 05:08 PM.

[Light-Speed]

Khobai, on 09 October 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

heavies shouldnt stand a chance against them. thats what it means to be an assault mech.

we should not have heavies zipping around at the speed of mediums with the firepower of assaults.

What about specialized extremely close range heavies (which thrive in all the cover PGI throws at the maps bc they don't understand variety, but I digress) vs the average assault?

Edited by Nightingale27, 09 October 2015 - 05:13 PM.

[Tsar Bomba]

The Atlas Overlord, on 09 October 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

You exist to be farmed by the guys buying the new fast OP mech packs.

You are the fodder.

You are the replacement for slaughtering vast amounts of underpowered AI.

You are there to make them feel good about killing something that doesn't stand a chance.

The whole "trade armor and firepower for speed and agility." isn't a trade at all. Armor is worthless, and they don't actually end up giving firepower.

So sad and true, and it just drives off players.

[Khobai]

Quote

What about specialized extremely close range heavies (which thrive in all the cover PGI throws at the maps bc they don't understand variety, but I digress) vs the average assault?

thats fine. a brawling heavy beating a sniping assault should probably be an equal fight or perhaps even slightly favor the heavy. But a brawling heavy should be at a serious disadvantage against a brawling assault.

the way the game is now a jagermech f-ing pwns an atlas. it bends the atlas over and wrecks its metal butt. despite weighing 35 tons less. theres something very wrong with that.

Edited by Khobai, 09 October 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[Burktross]

Khobai, on 09 October 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

heavies shouldnt stand a chance against them. thats what it means to be an assault mech.

we shouldnt have heavies zipping around at the speed of mediums with the firepower of assaults.

the heavy weight class need some serious rebalancing. Because the way the game is now, heavies not only make most mediums obsolete, but they make most assaults obsolete too.

medium mechs need their speed/agility advantage over heavies restored to them. assault mechs need their firepower/survivability advantage over heavies restored to them.

Being in an assault doesn't give you the right to autowins.

[Khobai]

Quote

Being in an assault doesn't give you the right to autowins.

neither does being in a heavy.

considering heavies dominate the game right now, and not assaults, I think my point of assaults needing a buff is pretty valid.

besides youve completely neglected the fact that assaults are weak to light mechs. assaults should be weak to light mechs but strong vs heavies. just like how lights counter assaults, assaults should in turn counter heavies. and thats currently not the case.

in reality, the way the game is now, heavies are strong vs EVERYTHING. heavies as a weight class incorporate the best strengths of both the medium and assault weight classes with little or none of the weaknesses. thats why heavies need to be knocked down a peg and assaults need to counter them more.

Edited by Khobai, 09 October 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Nightingale27, on 09 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

I sympathize with you, man. I understand how frustrating it is to feel the stupidity of a team that just increased their chance of losing because they dumped their assaults. Never a good strategic decision, because typically there isn't much gained from doing so.

However, I want to comment on a couple issues.

First of all, just to clarify to some of you out there, I don't understand why sometimes people think the lights should be the ones to be the ones to blame for leaving the assaults.
There are the lights whose jobs specifically require them to be away from the main group. These are the scouts, assassins, and squirrels. It doesn't make sense to force them to work at a fifth of their efficiency by making them stay in the middle of the team adding their tiny alphas to that of the enormous weapon platforms. That's the job of the mediums and heavies.
What doesn't make sense even more are the mediums and heavies that follow straight behind the scouts and leaving the fatasses, thinking they could find something to shoot or an easier kill by following the lights that go twice as fast.

Really, what kind of logic is that?


Also:


IMO, argument invalid. Here's why:

*eyes my legion of active lights worth 30+ million each*

*recalls how hard I have to work to stay on their backs and how easy so many assaults shake me off *

Yeah.

Seriously though, I have to take into account the terrain, watch your teammates and the map, watch your movement very carefully and predict them, and coordinate my physical movements in a battle against rapid changes of my orientation all at the same time in a multitasking cluster****, then you assaults kind of move a little and half the time I am screwed.
I am not teaching you the details though. Not that stupid.

• Wait wait wait. So you hate rock-scissor-paper game design. Therefore we must promote the armor of the assaults so that heavies will never stand a chance against them?
  
• Forks are pretty useless for eating porridge.
  
• Expenses: see above
  
• Expenses #2: Do you know why people don't grind in a light?...

Agree, Lights are not even part of this discussion, unless the light is a slow light, of which there are a few.

Light mech biggest advantage is speed. Asking them to go Assault speeds is rediculous.

A good light pilot with long range is sniping the other team ASAP. It all depends on load out but lights are not really part of this discussion.

Also I am far from a light pilot, I just pilot them lately because the light queue is low and makes for quick matches and its a nice change. I think mediums are my most used mechs. I like all weight classes to be honest.

Its rare when I have a problem with an assault but I did have such a problem fairly recently with my King Crab that was immediately camped by a light mech. It happens to everyone. One time I shut my STK down and let the other team go past me with great success. That was once though.

When in my extremely slow KC with 57 kph, I often let the team know. Works great 99% of the time.

Edited by Johnny Z, 09 October 2015 - 05:46 PM.

[Burktross]

Khobai, on 09 October 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

neither does being in a heavy.

considering heavies dominate the game right now, and not assaults, I think my point of assaults needing a buff is pretty valid.

besides youve completely neglected the fact that assaults are weak to light mechs. assaults should be weak to light mechs but strong vs heavies. just like how lights counter assaults, assaults should in turn counter heavies. and thats currently not the case.

in reality, the way the game is now, heavies are strong vs EVERYTHING. heavies as a weight class incorporate the best strengths of both the medium and assault weight classes with little or none of the weaknesses. thats why heavies need to be knocked down a peg and assaults need to counter them more.

Being in a heavy is not a guaranteed win. It all depends on the context of the battle. Assaults in turn should not have an invincible stance against heavies either, despite needing buffs.

Rock paper scissors: the game, isn't fun. There needs to be pros and cons for each class, that, when mastered, should make it such that the superior pilot is the one that wins-- not the one who was "in the right mech in the right match"