39 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

Just looked over the stats, and the Black Knight is just so awesome compared to most of my other mechs. Now granted, I usually try to stay away from the meta mechs and the meta builds, so I can't really compare it to the MPL Thunderbolts, the LPL Banshees, etc.

Never the less, I feel like I need to point out - once again - that I love my Black Knight. I decided it would be the last mech I would pay for with real money in the foreseeable future, and it's probably the most value for money since I bought a Warhawk a la carte when Wave 1 was released.

I've pugged over 100 matches with the 6B-variant, my WLR is 1.56 and my KDR is 2.93. The average WLR for this account is 1.16 and the average KDR for this account is 1.63, so it's quite a lot better than my average mech.

Click to see my modest mech stats.

Spoiler

Granted, the stats above may not be really representative anymore, since the level of competition pre- and post-PSR is probably not the same. But still.

My 6B variant runs 8MPL+1ML and STD300 engine, and it's quite monstrous. There are very few mechs I don't feel comfortable engaging in a 1v1. I actually thought this mech was quite good before the hitbox fix. It's somewhat better now.

With my 6-KNT and 7-KNT, I've been running PPCs and lasers, just as a personal goal to see if I can make it work. My 6-KNT runs 2PPC+5ML and it's great. My 7-KNT has been a test mech for a variety of LL and/or PPC builds, with... mixed success.

So yeah. If you've bought Resistance 2 and been playing your Mauler and Crab a lot, without really giving the Black Knight too much attention, I would urge you to reconsider. Unless you've already got a bunch of energy boating Thunderbolts, in which case you may be a bit disappointed. But the armour of a 75 mech with an STD engine is pretty nice in an open brawl though.

Praise the sun.



It's also one of the sexiest mechs in MWO, objectively speaking. For moar Black Knight screenshots, click this.

[Deathlike]

I simply don't feel this way.... mind you, I haven't really played around with it post-hitbox fix.

It's OK to drive, but I'd rather be running something else.

If I wanted laservomit IS heavy, the Grasshopper or Thunderwub-5SS would be it (probably the latter for CW, but neither for regular play due to disinterest).

I can't live on strictly (slow-ish) short range only brawling and expect consistently positive results... that only works on people that don't know any better.

[Kodyn]

It does feel like when I'm facing these, post hitbox fix, they can really tear a mech up.

When they first came out, I laughed whenever I saw a BK, knew I had an easy kill unless I did something stupid. Now, I come around a corner and am open, crit CT in one alpha, and instead of half the enemy team, it's sometimes just a lone BK. They always had the alpha I guess, but now they can actually survive for quite a while and keep hitting after the initial one, and that can be pretty scary.

Learning to give this mech a healthy dose of respect, as in good hands, it can be a beast.

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 11 October 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

My 6B variant runs 8MPL+1ML and STD300 engine, and it's quite monstrous. There are very few mechs I don't feel comfortable engaging in a 1v1. I actually thought this mech was quite good before the hitbox fix. It's somewhat better now.

Are you sure it's a 300 and not a 320?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7388d69272faa9d

With some armor shaving could even get a 325.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f16e61e3c14807a




I'll probably pick up the BKs once they are avail for cbills and after I see the inevitable gift store only variant that is likely to be as good or better than most of the current variants - and if not at least I'll have more info to make a decision.



EDIT: Here's an 80kph version swapping in more MLAS for a bigger engine.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1155fb43249723

Edited by Ultimatum X, 11 October 2015 - 03:31 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Deathlike, on 11 October 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

I simply don't feel this way.... mind you, I haven't really played around with it post-hitbox fix.
It's OK to drive, but I'd rather be running something else.
If I wanted laservomit IS heavy, the Grasshopper or Thunderwub-5SS would be it (probably the latter for CW, but neither for regular play due to disinterest).

I have no doubt the Thunderbolt is better. I was never interested in the Grasshopper, because it's just too ugly in my eyes. It's a shame, because I would have happily swapped a 75 tonner for a 70 tonner with jump jets. But I buy mechs based on looks first and effectiveness second. Which is why I still haven't sold my Highlanders.

Deathlike, on 11 October 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

I can't live on strictly (slow-ish) short range only brawling and expect consistently positive results... that only works on people that don't know any better.

Oh, I disagree with that. And it's not a Tier 3 thing, before anyone asks. I can still get in range with my SPL Nova on my Tier 2 Clan account.

It just depends on the map, for the most part. Crimson Strait, River City, Forest Colony, Caustic, Frozen City, Mining Collective, Viridian Bog, HPG Collective. On those maps, there are plenty of places where you can force a short range engagement, as long as your team is down for it.

On Alpine and Terra Therma, can be trickier to force short range engagements, if the enemies don't want to come to your position.

Canyon Network and Tourmaline Desert are 50-50. Sometimes you have the chance to force a short range engagement, other times you'll just get shut down by clan laser+gauss vomit.

Ultimatum X, on 11 October 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

Are you sure it's a 300 and not a 320?
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7388d69272faa9d
With some armor shaving could even get a 325.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f16e61e3c14807a
I'll probably pick up the BKs once they are avail for cbills and after I see the inevitable gift store only variant that is likely to be as good or better than most of the current variants - and if not at least I'll have more info to make a decision.

EDIT: Here's an 80kph version swapping in more MLAS for a bigger engine.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1155fb43249723

I run mine with an STD300 for extra heatsinks. No Endo, but 22 DHS. I'm just not very good with heat management and I really depend on a certain level of heat efficiency to do ok in a brawl. I think it's a playstyle thing. And maybe a lack of aiming skills.

[Troutmonkey]

What the difference between this and the Grasshopper? This look really cool but the Hopper has good quirks and JJs.
I didn't pick up R2 because 90% of the mechs were energy only

[Kodyn]

Alistair Winter, on 11 October 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

...
Which is why I still haven't sold my Highlanders.
...

For whatever reason, I still find the HGN one of the coolest looking mechs in the game. I mastered I think 3-4 of them, in the hopes I could make one work for me, and even had my first over 1k match in the 733C, but this was over a year ago, when I had no idea what I was doing, no clue of the meta, and I think I was low enough Elo that I was probably not playing good opponents in it.

If I could have any currently potato mech redone to be really viable, I think it'd be the HGN. I sold them all, but I'd buy at least the 733C and the B back in a heartbeat if I knew they could work as well as my current mechs do.

[Alistair Winter]

Troutmonkey, on 11 October 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

What the difference between this and the Grasshopper? This look really cool but the Hopper has good quirks and JJs.
I didn't pick up R2 because 90% of the mechs were energy only

Grasshopper has higher weapon mounts in the torso, better torso twist, and jump jets.

Black Knight has more energy hardpoints (9 vs 8), more weapons in the arms (useful for brawling) and a slightly smaller overall profile.

Kodyn, on 11 October 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

For whatever reason, I still find the HGN one of the coolest looking mechs in the game. I mastered I think 3-4 of them, in the hopes I could make one work for me, and even had my first over 1k match in the 733C, but this was over a year ago, when I had no idea what I was doing, no clue of the meta, and I think I was low enough Elo that I was probably not playing good opponents in it.

If I could have any currently potato mech redone to be really viable, I think it'd be the HGN. I sold them all, but I'd buy at least the 733C and the B back in a heartbeat if I knew they could work as well as my current mechs do.

I just don't know how they can fix the HGN without drastically reworking weapon balance (i.e. reward synergy and resurrect mechs with limited E, B and M hardpoints ) or giving considerable weapon quirks (which PGI doesn't want to do anymore). I suppose the only option that is left would be to make it super-tanky, like they want to do with the Atlas. But the HGN would need gargantuan armour+structure buffs to compete with the Dire Wolf, Banshee and Warhawk, both as a short range and a long range mech.

And of course, there's the jump jets.

[zagibu]

Alistair Winter, on 11 October 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

It's also one of the sexiest mechs in MWO, objectively speaking. For moar Black Knight screenshots, click this.

Objectively speaking, eh? Can you teach me how to do that?

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Alistair Winter, on 11 October 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

It's also one of the sexiest mechs in MWO, subjectively speaking. For moar Black Knight screenshots, click this.

FTFY. Aesthetics can't really every be truly objective. For instance I think it's a silly looking gundam.

[Deathlike]

Alistair Winter, on 11 October 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

I have no doubt the Thunderbolt is better. I was never interested in the Grasshopper, because it's just too ugly in my eyes. It's a shame, because I would have happily swapped a 75 tonner for a 70 tonner with jump jets. But I buy mechs based on looks first and effectiveness second. Which is why I still haven't sold my Highlanders.

If only looks could kill...

There's so much to a mech than how it looks. I'm sure people have their own priorities when it comes to these things, but if it doesn't match up with the cold reality... well... it's going to suck.

Quote

Oh, I disagree with that. And it's not a Tier 3 thing, before anyone asks. I can still get in range with my SPL Nova on my Tier 2 Clan account.

It just depends on the map, for the most part. Crimson Strait, River City, Forest Colony, Caustic, Frozen City, Mining Collective, Viridian Bog, HPG Collective. On those maps, there are plenty of places where you can force a short range engagement, as long as your team is down for it.

On Alpine and Terra Therma, can be trickier to force short range engagements, if the enemies don't want to come to your position.

Canyon Network and Tourmaline Desert are 50-50. Sometimes you have the chance to force a short range engagement, other times you'll just get shut down by clan laser+gauss vomit.

If I can't really out-meta a metamech with any mech, it tends to go bad. I'm not sure how you can accurately "quantify" effectiveness (I'd say like it has to be 80% as effective as the next best mech/option within/around its tonnage to realistically hold your own).

The "it's not the mech, it's the pilot theory" is more of a "hidden truth and hidden lie". Any good player can make a mediocre mech look better than it should. That's not a bad thing necessarily. However, if you're going to obfuscate that for being a "good mech" when it isn't... that's the other problem. When you compare any two mechs, you have to be objective at what they are capable of doing, and what they can't. Often times, the better mech can do more stuff, more often, and more successfully.

Sometimes it is simple as a "mental block" for some people to be successful at one subpar mech, but not in a more optimal mech. It is akin to baseball where the pitcher has no issues to throwing to home plate... but somehow panic over trying to toss the ball to first base. Occasionally you need to be in a right mindset to play a particular mech... but outside of build (or weaponing groupings), it takes some effort to figure out what you need to make a mech work for you.

In any case, the quality of play dictates how much more effective or ineffective one can be in the face of more difficult competition. That's why even discussions about Lights or LRMs are what they are... it's one thing if you enjoy the mech or weapon system.. it's another thing to say that they better when they are objectively not. That's why people go to every which end to respond as such. I'm not against taking a "fun mech" (even if everyone says it's a bad mech), and in fact I don't have a problem with that. I'm totally against telling people a bad mech is good when facts, objectivity, and proof demonstrate otherwise.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 October 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

@Deathlike: Simply put, I'm not arguing that the BK is a "tier 1 mech". I do agree that "good" loses all meaning when people say that every mech is "good" in the right hands. However, I also think that "bad" loses all meaning when every mech in the game except the "tier 1 mechs" are "bad". I don't want to go down a fruitless road of establishing how much better the Thunderbolt or Grasshopper is versus the Black Knight, measured in quirk percentages, hard point locations and profile pixel counts. Suffice it to say, the BK is arguably the best IS mech I have. It's almost as effective as my Hellbringers, even. And while not even my Hellbringers are using the standard meta builds (I go with UAC5's, MLs and MGs instead of laservomit or lasers+gauss), I think it says something about the potential of the BK, for me.

zagibu, on 11 October 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Objectively speaking, eh? Can you teach me how to do that?

You have to use maths, hacking and psycho-history.

Illya Arkhipova, on 11 October 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

FTFY. Aesthetics can't really every be truly objective. For instance I think it's a silly looking gundam.

Over 2000 years ago, Plato proved beyond doubt that material objects are simply reflections of eternal, perfect ideas. According to his scientific theories, beauty is closely connected to the idea of goodness, which is the highest of all ideas and the source of all virtues. The nature of ideas were determined to be absolute and constant, beyond our concepts of relativity. As such, the beauty of the Black Knight is beyond discussion, as it can be measured in absolute terms compared to how well it matches with the idea of perfect beauty.

In other words, you are wrong and your views of mech beauty betray your lack of appreciation of the finer aspects of gundam aesthetics and philosophy.

[Kiiyor]

Deathlike, on 11 October 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

The "it's not the mech, it's the pilot theory" is more of a "hidden truth and hidden lie". Any good player can make a mediocre mech look better than it should. That's not a bad thing necessarily. However, if you're going to obfuscate that for being a "good mech" when it isn't... that's the other problem. When you compare any two mechs, you have to be objective at what they are capable of doing, and what they can't. Often times, the better mech can do more stuff, more often, and more successfully.

This is a great point. You can't make generalizations about bad mechs when comparing them to good ones.

Almost all mechs, including the bad ones, have a niche. It's the number of niches available that makes the difference between generally good mechs and good in specific circumstances mechs.

When people talk about bad robots being capable, they are probably talking about the mech being in a situation where it's snug in one of the grooves it's most comfortable being in. Getting into this position however (and staying there) is almost always a mark of a pilot who either understands the shortcomings of their machine and works around them, or has no idea what they are doing and still manages to stumble into a set of ideal circumstances. IMHO, it has far less to do with the quality of virtual steel they have wrapped around themselves.

For example, my comfort zone in my Awesome is mid range, and mid range only. If I can keep a foe at 300 - 500m, I have absolutely no hesitation in trading with just about anything short of a DireWolf, and i'll usually win - but that's not because the Awesome is good - it's because I know how to leverage that one particular strength to the exclusion of all else, and exploit people ignoring my weaknesses with extreme prejudice.

However, If i'm caught outside my comfort zone, either at comfortable Clan long ranges or anything under 200m, i'm probably toast. Toast on the just-short-of-black setting. Toast cooked by a blowtorch. Bread on the sun.

This whole thing is most evident when you compare performance in the Public and Group queues, i've found. In a Pug, It's far easier to play to your strengths when your enemies aren't working together to exploit your weaknesses. However, against even a semi competent team in the group queue, the shortcomings of your mech are compounded significantly by every member of the opposite team who knows how to expose them. Dragon? Bye bye weapon arm. Awesome? So long, CT - or ST if they think you're running an XL. Gargles? Let's see how lethal you are when everyone shoots your fat face.

Better mechs are simply better at more things, and have answers for far more questions posed by the enemy.

"Hey, MadCat, want to fight at long range?"
"Sure. Eat LPL. Ha, look at me easily spreading your damage"
"Ok, er... medium range?"
"Wooo! Time to bring the MLAS to the party! Also, still spreading your damage, just FYI"
"Er.. Sh... short range?"
"Well, i'm a little less comfortable here, but i'll just dump an alpha and JJ away. TO INFINITY!"

Whereas...

"Hey, Mr Awesome! Do you wanna hug?"
"Er... no thanks, I bruise like a peach! Could you please be a sport and run waaaaay over there and ignore me shooting you for a bit?"
"er... Ok. This far enough?"
"Um, actually, that's a little too far. Could you please come a little closer? Also, stop that jumping about nonsense."

[El Bandito]

Alistair Winter, on 11 October 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

Just looked over the stats, and the Black Knight is just so awesome compared to most of my other mechs. Now granted, I usually try to stay away from the meta mechs and the meta builds, so I can't really compare it to the MPL Thunderbolts, the LPL Banshees, etc.

Never the less, I feel like I need to point out - once again - that I love my Black Knight. I decided it would be the last mech I would pay for with real money in the foreseeable future, and it's probably the most value for money since I bought a Warhawk a la carte when Wave 1 was released.

I've pugged over 100 matches with the 6B-variant, my WLR is 1.56 and my KDR is 2.93. The average WLR for this account is 1.16 and the average KDR for this account is 1.63, so it's quite a lot better than my average mech.

My 6B variant runs 8MPL+1ML and STD300 engine, and it's quite monstrous. There are very few mechs I don't feel comfortable engaging in a 1v1. I actually thought this mech was quite good before the hitbox fix. It's somewhat better now.

Then you will love the Battlemasters. It is everything the Wubknight wants to be, and more. Buy it next, or wait for the eventual BLR Mastery Pack. Plus there is less queue wait time for Assaults.
And Hellslinger is just so damn sexy.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 October 2015 - 06:18 PM.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Alistair Winter, on 11 October 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

Over 2000 years ago, Plato proved beyond doubt that material objects are simply reflections of eternal, perfect ideas. According to his scientific theories, beauty is closely connected to the idea of goodness, which is the highest of all ideas and the source of all virtues. The nature of ideas were determined to be absolute and constant, beyond our concepts of relativity. As such, the beauty of the Black Knight is beyond discussion, as it can be measured in absolute terms compared to how well it matches with the idea of perfect beauty.

In other words, you are wrong and your views of mech beauty betray your lack of appreciation of the finer aspects of gundam aesthetics and philosophy.

first fallacy: One cannot prove a theory, only disprove it. The Golden Ratio is just man trying to quantify the unquantifiable.

Also, philosophy is the mental farting of people with too much time on their hands.

Restricting one's ability to appreciate and admire aesthetics such is the true betrayal. As always, timid minds seek structure to hind behind.

There is no mathematical formula for beauty, and even if you buy into that drek, kindly demonstrate, PROVE that the Black Knight embodies it.

Since you cannot, it is subjective.

Edited by Illya Arkhipova, 11 October 2015 - 06:36 PM.

[Cion]

Kiiyor, on 11 October 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

This is a great point. You can't make generalizations about bad mechs when comparing them to good ones.

Almost all mechs, including the bad ones, have a niche. I

And way too much good stuff to quote

Best post I've read in a long time, beautifully explained. Well done sir.

OP glad you love the knight. Nice cammos btw. Made me wanna purchase one too... Gotta love the final custom geo mechs (spikes ftw!)

[STEF_]

I'm curious: do you have Battlemaster 3S, or 1G, or Banshee 3M, or hopper 5P?
'cause I'm pretty sure all of them can do it better.

Also, I'm quite sure that without that flashing white camo your ratio would double!

[Throbbinwood]

My favorite (and best mech).

[Light-Speed]

Whoa.
I know I came to MWO partially because of the art. But, WHOA.

Those Knights are BEAUTIFUL ! No other mech is more aesthetically pleasing...

I don't think I have particularly said anything like this in the 22 months I've been here.

[Samedi Wretch]

Illya Arkhipova, on 11 October 2015 - 06:31 PM, said:

first fallacy: One cannot prove a theory, only disprove it. The Golden Ratio is just man trying to quantify the unquantifiable.

Also, philosophy is the mental farting of people with too much time on their hands.

Restricting one's ability to appreciate and admire aesthetics such is the true betrayal. As always, timid minds seek structure to hind behind.

There is no mathematical formula for beauty, and even if you buy into that drek, kindly demonstrate, PROVE that the Black Knight embodies it.

Since you cannot, it is subjective.

That's a lot of pseudo-philosophy for someone rejecting philosophy out of hand. Also, human notions of beauty tend to be largely consistent, even across cultures. So much so that the deviations draw attention precisely because they do not conform to our hardwired aesthetic sensibilities. Beauty approaches being a universal construct.