12 replies to this topic

[Grimm Peaper]

I hear a lot of people complain that heat scale needs to go and yet most people aren't able to offer better or simpler suggestions. I just wanted to see if we could pool ideas on possible alternatives to heat scale. I had a few ideas in mind myself to start it off.

• Recoil - In MW3 if you put a large caliber AC in an arm and fired it, the torso would list to one side when you fired it. This is similar to the recoil on machine guns, if you have ever fired one in real life. In MW3, you could even balance it by having recoil in both arms and they would negate each other. Also, if you look at most shooter games, a rapid fire weapon bounces around when fired, so the following shots aren't fired in the same spot as the first. Fewer weapons would mean little or no recoil, vs alpha firing multiple would have lots of recoil.
  
• PPC Arcing - The devs could simply arc any strike that goes over say 30 damage. Yes, you'd hit their mech, but damage over a set amount would arc into other areas similar to how clan ppc's arc into other body areas. This would seem easy to implement as the mechanic is already in the game
  
• Extended duration - For insta-hit weapons like lasers, they could have increased burn times when boated. This means you could get a short beam firing just a few, but a long beam when trying to fire them en-mass.
  
• Shotgun affect - Firing 1 is accurate, but shooting multiple would get you an lbx affect.
  
• Extended cool downs - Alpha striking causes your weapons to take longer to cool down.

If you have other ideas or wish to comment on these, please feel free to discuss.

[LordNothing]

i think heat feels about right for everything but flamers and class 2 autocannons.

for other alternatives ive been thinking about focusing time for lasers. laser optics need to adjust for target range in real time (real lasers do this). firing at a mech before the focal point has been adjusted will result in a sub optimal damage call. there should be a small delay between placing a crosshair on a target and being ranged in. you rely on mechanical actuators to move the lenses and must wait for them.

convergence latency, its kind of a similar situation. actuators dont immediately go where you want them to, it takes time. use a 3 cross hair system. player controls the set point, and arm and torso actuators go there as fast as they can. you might also factor in the weight on the arm into the equation so it takes longer to converge an ac20 arm than it does a medium laser.

Edited by LordNothing, 12 October 2015 - 05:43 PM.

[El Bandito]

I still prefer energy draw system for weapons than this Ghost Heat nonsense.

Especially since PGI can't get delayed convergence up and running.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 October 2015 - 05:30 PM.

[Rushmoar]

Grimm Peaper, on 12 October 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

I hear a lot of people complain that heat scale needs to go and yet most people aren't able to offer better or simpler suggestions. I just wanted to see if we could pool ideas on possible alternatives to heat scale. I had a few ideas in mind myself to start it off.

• Recoil - In MW3 if you put a large caliber AC in an arm and fired it, the torso would list to one side when you fired it. This is similar to the recoil on machine guns, if you have ever fired one in real life. In MW3, you could even balance it by having recoil in both arms and they would negate each other. Also, if you look at most shooter games, a rapid fire weapon bounces around when fired, so the following shots aren't fired in the same spot as the first. Fewer weapons would mean little or no recoil, vs alpha firing multiple would have lots of recoil.
  
• PPC Arcing - The devs could simply arc any strike that goes over say 30 damage. Yes, you'd hit their mech, but damage over a set amount would arc into other areas similar to how clan ppc's arc into other body areas. This would seem easy to implement as the mechanic is already in the game
  
• Extended duration - For insta-hit weapons like lasers, they could have increased burn times when boated. This means you could get a short beam firing just a few, but a long beam when trying to fire them en-mass.
  
• Shotgun affect - Firing 1 is accurate, but shooting multiple would get you an lbx affect.
  
• Extended cool downs - Alpha striking causes your weapons to take longer to cool down.

If you have other ideas or wish to comment on these, please feel free to discuss.

I actual think the simpler way is just fix the heat scale. For one the the heat pool is too large. Its about 60 points I think. This is what lead to the 6 PPC Stalker, the mech that started the whole ghost heat issue. 60 points plus any additional heats sinks that increased the pool even larger.

If the heat pool was at 30, near TT rule set the high alpha would all but disappear. Yes, someone could still bring the 6 PPC stalker but would be shut down for a long time. IS mediums could go back to 3 heat like they should be. With a small heat pool, heatsinks could cool off faster.And as for the all energy mechs, just because you have 9 energy hardpoints does not mean you have to use them all.

As for the talking points:

• Wouls love to see recoil in this game. made MW3 really fun.
  
• We already have PPC arcing on the Clan side. Don't want to see this on the IS side. It is not needed in my opinion. Proper heat pool would keep PPCs in line.
  
• PGI already did this with the Timberwolf and Stormcrow and people treaten to leave the game. Never saw this much crying in any game.
  
• Not sure if your talking about all weapons or just balistic weapons when you are talking about shotgun affect. Short answer is no. Never want to see this except with the PPCs. Fire one, it,s pin point. Fire two or more they, travel side by side. this way damage can be spread around the mech. You know the like partical repell each other affect.

Dont like the extended cool down because it means there is less of a chance to over heat. Heat should always be the limiting factor that keep someone from firing all the time.
Lower the heat pool and then adjust any weapons the could miss use this like make small heat increases to balistics if need be. Alphas should be lower and keep them at 40 or less. The 62 alphas loadouts need to go.

[Khobai]

Quote

I still prefer energy draw system for weapons than this Ghost Heat nonsense.

energy draw feels too artificial and alien from battletech and every other mechwarrior title. its no better than ghost heat.

it would be better if the the game just had built-in mechanics that split up damage.

weapon mechanics like splash damage, burst fire, beam duration, etc... and then maybe combine that with something similar to MW2s hitsphere system where hitting a location has a chance of redirecting a portion of that damage to an adjacent location.

[Mothykins]

Heat cap.

Seriously. Not at all difficult.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Reduce the gifted 30 we get down to 14 (The value for the first Shutdown roll, so MWO has the Override key!)
Disable Heat Containment and/or Cool Run, or have both boost Dissipation.
Disable Heat Gen Quirks
Turn off Heat Scale Penalties during testing

IS DHS stays at 2.0 Capacity, then have a max of 0.4 Dissipation each, no difference between Engine/non-Engine
IS SHS stays at 1.0 Capacity, and then has a max of 0.2 Dissipation each
C-DHS goes to 1.6 Capacity, then have a max of 0.3 Dissipation each, no difference between Engine/non-Engine



That way 20 IS DHS provides 54.0 Capacity and 8.00 Dissipation max. So on say an AWS-9M Firing three ERPPCs gains up to 45 Heat firing three for 30 Damage, with an HPS of ~13.23 (if we keep base weapon stats as-is, and factor Modules, Fast Fire). If this mech would try to Alpha all three again it would shutdown or blowup, but could keep moving and fire a single ERPPC.

28 SHS, provides 42.0 Capacity and 5.60 Dissipation max. So an AWS-8Q could fire three PPCs, for 30 Damage and Heat, with an HPS of ~12.93, so it could Alpha once, but would need to manage its shots and would still need to wait before being able to fire all three again.

26 C-DHS would provide 55.6 Capacity and 7.80 Dissipation, So three ERPPCs could be Alpha'd on a mech like the Warhawk, but never able to fire four, and would still need to manage firing with its ~13.55 HPS.

And certain weapons like the C-LPL or the various other Large Lasers can see Damage and Heat restored, such as 10 Damage C-LPL or 12 Heat C-ERLL and so on at the very least.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

El Bandito, on 12 October 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

I still prefer energy draw system for weapons than this Ghost Heat nonsense.

Especially since PGI can't get delayed convergence up and running.

I suggested something like this a week or so ago...

The haters jumped on it fast.

You know... b/c this game is SO hardcore about lore.

Edited by The Atlas Overlord, 12 October 2015 - 07:13 PM.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 12 October 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

energy draw feels too artificial and alien from battletech and every other mechwarrior title. its no better than ghost heat.

What? Energy draw is even mentioned in the BT novel "Blood Legacy", why would it be alien?

Quote

Phelan nodded to himself and studied the auxiliary monitor. "Gauss rifle in my left arm?"

"Great weapon. It uses magnetic currents to launch a ball of ferrous metal about the diameter of a melon. Generates next to no heat and packs one hell of a wallop. The only problem is that its power requirements are fairly heavy. If you try to shoot it and the lasers at the same time, the computer will have to cycle and allocate power, so it will take a bit longer to get your salvo off."

Sounds like the novel already found a way to balance Gaussvomit. Balancing should take precedence over fluff anyway.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 October 2015 - 07:54 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

What? Energy draw is even mentioned in the BT novel "Blood Legacy", why would it be alien?

because its not in any of the games.

energy draw being mentioned one time in some novel as a plot device doesnt make it a canon part of the game.

if that were the case then we would have mechs "stackpoling" and going nuclear every time they died.

Edited by Khobai, 12 October 2015 - 07:55 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

High Alpha = Weapons Spread
http://mwomercs.com/...31#entry4745431

[Funkin Disher]

Troutmonkey, on 12 October 2015 - 08:17 PM, said:

High Alpha = Weapons Spread
http://mwomercs.com/...31#entry4745431

Yup.
In the OP's post he even mentions an older idea, the TCL (Targeting Computer Load), dated from before heat scale was implemented. That's how old that idea is, and that's how long we've wanted something like this.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 12 October 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

because its not in any of the games.

energy draw being mentioned one time in some novel as a plot device doesnt make it a canon part of the game.

if that were the case then we would have mechs "stackpoling" and going nuclear every time they died.

Going nuclear happened in MW2/Mercs as well as in MW:LL BTW, so that logic does not compute.
If we adhere to canon in every detail then no one except few masochists will play the IS side.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 October 2015 - 09:47 PM.