572 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Arrogusss, on 16 October 2015 - 05:06 PM, said:

Large threads and test servers on Nerfing Clan Mechs to The GROUND???

Errr, you did take the time to learn what's actually going on and didn't just go off on a rant, didn't you?

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NERFING CLAN LASERS 40 PERCENT??
Isn't 40 percent a bit extreme?? 25% would have seemed like a let down from the "Superior Clan Tech" the clans were bringing to the game when you were Pushing clan mech packs upwards of 200 dollars, and GOLD mechs for 500.. five friggin hundred..pffft.

They actually have 20% shorter range. The nerf was 40% of the distance from Optimal to Maximum range (that is, 40% off of half of the range) - so they drop off faster than IS lasers do... With the exception of the ISERLL, which also was nerfed in a similar way.

Thus, the "Nerfed into the ground" clan tech?

1t, 1s ERML. 405m optimal range, 648 maximum range, 7 damage, 6 heat, 3s cycle, 1.15s burn
vs.
1t, 1s ML. 270m Optimal range, 540 maximum range, 5 damage, 4 heat, 3s cycle, 0.9s burn

Yeah, poor Clan mechs, their weapons aren't even better than IS weapons! Oh, woe is me! 7 damage at 405m vs. 5 damage at 270! However will I cope? Why at a 400m firefight, those IS mechs are pushing a rocking 3.33 damage. How will my 7 compare?

Oh, us poor Clanners!

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Have you run out of clan mechs and now want to push the classic IS mechs for the next year, nerf the heck out of clans to actually push IS sales?? yes, that's exactly the plan.

Yes, I'm sure that's it. Not that we've been begging for unseen mechs since this game was first announced, and it's been very dangerous up till now... Now that an "ally" so to speak wants to push for it as well, and they can work together to be safer, why shouldn't they give us what we want?

Stupid company, giving their customers what they want.

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You add 3rd person and a "training grounds" for new players, but are making this game too technical.
I have to spend about an hour or two next week at a friends house explaining to him how to properly loadout and balance mechs in this game (weight, damage, heat, key binding and weapons groups). Some people just DONT GET IT "at first".
I'm sure he would end up spending 200-300 over the next year once he got into it, that is IF I SUGGEST HE CONTINUE.

Wut? You want the game to be simpler? Egads. I don't even.

It does need better New Player Training, but the new Academy is a very good piece of work for any company; it's a spectacular showing for PGI (mind you, one that's on point with a lot of their more recent work). It's not the whole journey, but it's a very good start.

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This mech rebalance thing is new to me and seems shafty and cheap of you guys.
REMOVING THE RED HIT CONFIRMATION IN RECTICLE IS A BIG MISTAKE. Especially for newer players, and especially when it seems like hit registration is still pretty friggedUp depending on the weapon/map/situation.

This PTS was not testing the whole system, it was testing independent parts. It is NOT a final product. They where very clear about this in the first post of this thread.

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So Have I spent 500 plus dollars on this "free to play" game so far?? Yes I have. Will I spend another 500 over the next year or so, probably not if you are making long posts and test servers specifically made for a NERFING-FEST.
Will I spend as much as I have on WOT over the next year on MWO?? Well I could afford to, and I would like to; but you better cut this out NOW, and step it up. HD mechs and map option for those of us with decent computers, get a few Badass commercials on the television to increase the player base and popularity... and did I mention that nobody likes a game that pulls "bait and switches" with the nerf-hammer after they spent hundreds and even thousands of dollars on a game, regardless of the terms of use and license agreement that says you can do so at any time.
Don't kill Clanner tech, and keep the game as complicated as it is now but NO MORE complicated.

Clan tech needs to be nerfed if IS quirks are to be removed. If you'd wiped the froth from your mouth and actually read the OP, you'd have seen that every mech had all it's quirks removed. Timberwolves and Stormcrows lost their laser nerf quirks. Every IS mech lost it's quirks.

Yes, Clan lasers were nerfed, but only by 20% max range overall, while IS mechs lost upwards of 50% weapon nerfs, structure and agility nerfs, range, cooldown, etc.

IS mechs where nerfed massively harder than Clan mechs in this PTS.

[Wintersdark]

Coralld, on 17 October 2015 - 07:16 PM, said:

I agree completely.

There are some people saying that now ECM is useless. I disagree, but, I do think it should give a % penalty to LRM accuracy and possibly make it so you can't bring up the mechs paper doll.

Yup. I'd like to see ECM totally block target information - no identifying letter, no paper doll, no pilot name. You can still lock onto the mech, but you don't know anything about it.

Also, I'd like to see hostile ECM near (180, 200m?) you reduce your overall sensor range by 50%. So, enemy lights with ECM could run interdiction for scouts, shutting down their massive sensor range and forcing them to get closer to relay targeting data.

[J0anna]

Wintersdark, on 17 October 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

They shouldn't be "supposed to be worthless". Having deliberately worthless things in the game is stupid.

I'm curious if they're actually going to delay targeting (a terrible idea IMHO) or just target data acquisition (the paper doll/etc). Delaying targeting completely I think is going to be a hot mess of trying to figure out if your press of "R" was missed, or if it's just lag (as targeting is server side and thus delayed by 2xping) or being delayed from equipment or whatever else.

Two things:

1) Tech 2 equipment is supposed to be better than tech 1 equipment, I am definitely in favor of far more deadly weapons (and longer range) and using the heat cap to prevent alphaing them. I have no problem with single heat sinks being useless as everyone will have access to doubles. Eventually, when LFE engines come out, standard engines will almost completely drop from use. It should happen, so I really don't worry about some items becoming worthless.

2) They are almost certainly going to delay targeting. We saw that in PTS 1. And being PGI, I expect the delay to be upwards of 5 seconds. It's ironic really, assault mechs will get the worse range, and probably the worst targeting time, yet they can't get the brawling bonus - seems backwards to me. Oh and they can overcome your issue by having betty announce "targeting" when you press R. So you know it's happening (they could even give you the swirling reticle). This is why I think 40% is too much to start. I suspect a good number of mechs will be unable to target enemies for a significant part of the match, thus almost always suffering damage reduction on their lasers.

Wintersdark, on 17 October 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

Thus, the "Nerfed into the ground" clan tech?

1t, 1s ERML. 405m optimal range, 648 maximum range, 7 damage, 6 heat, 3s cycle, 1.15s burn
vs.
1t, 1s ML. 270m Optimal range, 540 maximum range, 5 damage, 4 heat, 3s cycle, 0.9s burn

Quoting numbers like that can be misleading. The recycle time doesn't begin until after the burn is over, so it's more correctly:


1t, 1s ERML. 405m optimal range, 648 maximum range, 7 damage, 6 heat, 4.15s cycle,
vs.
1t, 1s ML. 270m Optimal range, 540 maximum range, 5 damage, 4 heat, 3.9s cycle,

And the ERML is not supposed to be equivalent to the IS ML, comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges. It needs to be equivalent to the IS ERML when it gets released in 3058. The clan ERML is supposed to be 7 damage for 5 heat, the IS ERML should be 5 damage for 5 heat, the IS ML should be 5 damage for 3 heat. If we can get a proper heat cap of 30, we could bring the weapons back to their correct values.

This is my biggest concern. Tech 2 IS weapons are coming, with their arrival balance becomes much better, and this effort largely a waste of time. However by nerfing clan tech 2 weapons down to tech 1 levels, we are practically forced to have to reperform this whole evolution to nerf down the new IS weapons. Sure we could just set IS tech 2 weapons exactly equal to their clan equivalents. But what about those weapons that don't have clan equivalents, MRM's, RAC's, Rocket launchers, X-pulse lasers, heavy gauss, and even heavy lasers (for clan)? What are we going to have to do to the RAC 5 which can shoot 6xAC 5 rounds for each trigger pull. Going through all this just to keep tech 1 garbage useful represents lost time (by PGI) that could be spent on many other things. For anyone whining TTK, remember my proposed solution (a locked heat cap set to 30 - like the game has always had) would quickly end 'alpha warrior online'.

Imagine if we implemented the heat table (even partially) into MWO:

Heat 30 - shutdown
Heat 28, 23, 19 - chance of ammo explosion
Heat 26, 23, 19, 14 - chance of shutdown
Heat 25, 20, 15, 10, 5 - movement slowed
Heat 24, 17, 13, 8 - lose targeting reticle/information

Obviously we would have to test the percentages of each happening and maybe even eliminate the low heat impacts. But I'd rather be testing a change like this on the PTS. It would certainly make MWO, much more like TT and raise TTK by quite a bit. 'Alphaing' weapons really should be a last ditch measure, not a constant like we have now.

[Dakkss]

Seriously PGI, if it's high pinpoint alpha metas you're trying to bust, just have the reticle bounce with the mech in first person - like it does in third person. It makes no sense that we can see our whole machine rattling up and down but our crosshair and weapon LOS is fixed.

This way you'll have people being a lot less accurate with their shots while on the move. This should put more pressure on coward sniper mechs too as most of them are hill-humpers and those that risk standing still will face the wrath of LL and LRM's.

[NocturnalBeast]

Dak Darklighter, on 18 October 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

Seriously PGI, if it's high pinpoint alpha metas you're trying to bust, just have the reticle bounce with the mech in first person - like it does in third person. It makes no sense that we can see our whole machine rattling up and down but our crosshair and weapon LOS is fixed.

This way you'll have people being a lot less accurate with their shots while on the move. This should put more pressure on coward sniper mechs too as most of them are hill-humpers and those that risk standing still will face the wrath of LL and LRM's.

It is a highly advanced walking tank, not a WWI tank. Even modern battle tanks have stabilization for the weapons. This is a game of armored combat, sniping and suppressing fire with missiles are viable tactics as are artillery and airstrikes as well as countermeasures. The goal is to use combined arms with intelligent maneuvering to defeat these threats. I like brawling myself, and yes it does suck when you get taken out before you get into brawling range, but that is all part of the game and means that I did not use cover effectively or I chose the wrong path to my target.

[Arkaiko]

Kael 17, on 13 October 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

Dear PGI.

In the event that you are reading this, a few questions.

First
As stated this test server is nerfing the Clans' lasers' maximum range by 40%. Are you also nerfing the Clans' lasers optimum range by 40%?

I ask because the rule on beams has been that maximum range is 2x optimum range, and there
is no indication here that suggests that mechanic is being...altered.



Second:
Doing away with quirks, the Maximum range values for all beam weapons break down as follows, quiaff?

IS Small 270m Clan ER Small 240m
IS Medium 540m Clan ER Medium 486m
IS Large 900m Clan ER Large 888m
IS ER Large 1350m
IS Small pulse 220m Clan Small Pulse 198m
IS Med Pulse 440m Clan Med Pulse 396m
IS Lg Pulse 730m Clan Lg Pulse 720m


Third,
Can someone check my math on this? Given the engagement envelopes, if I am in an assault mech, will I be able to shoot a clan ER Large laser at a target within its optimal range, and not do max damage because my mech's sensors are so myopic that they cannot see the Fatlas more than half a klick away?

u r SO wrong

[Wintersdark]

Moenrg, on 18 October 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

Two things:

1) Tech 2 equipment is supposed to be better than tech 1 equipment, I am definitely in favor of far more deadly weapons (and longer range) and using the heat cap to prevent alphaing them. I have no problem with single heat sinks being useless as everyone will have access to doubles. Eventually, when LFE engines come out, standard engines will almost completely drop from use. It should happen, so I really don't worry about some items becoming worthless.

2) They are almost certainly going to delay targeting. We saw that in PTS 1. And being PGI, I expect the delay to be upwards of 5 seconds. It's ironic really, assault mechs will get the worse range, and probably the worst targeting time, yet they can't get the brawling bonus - seems backwards to me. Oh and they can overcome your issue by having betty announce "targeting" when you press R. So you know it's happening (they could even give you the swirling reticle). This is why I think 40% is too much to start. I suspect a good number of mechs will be unable to target enemies for a significant part of the match, thus almost always suffering damage reduction on their lasers.




Quoting numbers like that can be misleading. The recycle time doesn't begin until after the burn is over, so it's more correctly:


1t, 1s ERML. 405m optimal range, 648 maximum range, 7 damage, 6 heat, 4.15s cycle,
vs.
1t, 1s ML. 270m Optimal range, 540 maximum range, 5 damage, 4 heat, 3.9s cycle,

Yes, this is correct; I was quoting the base weapon stats.

The point remains, What Clans Get for tonnage/slots spent is vastly, inarguably superior to what IS mechs get for tonnage/slots spent.

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And the ERML is not supposed to be equivalent to the IS ML, comparing them is like comparing apples to oranges. It needs to be equivalent to the IS ERML when it gets released in 3058. The clan ERML is supposed to be 7 damage for 5 heat, the IS ERML should be 5 damage for 5 heat, the IS ML should be 5 damage for 3 heat. If we can get a proper heat cap of 30, we could bring the weapons back to their correct values.

This is a game. It needs to be balanced now. 3058 is a long time away - probably not ~6 years away, but certainly at LEAST a year away.

The factions need to be balanced now.

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This is my biggest concern. Tech 2 IS weapons are coming, with their arrival balance becomes much better, and this effort largely a waste of time. However by nerfing clan tech 2 weapons down to tech 1 levels, we are practically forced to have to reperform this whole evolution to nerf down the new IS weapons. Sure we could just set IS tech 2 weapons exactly equal to their clan equivalents. But what about those weapons that don't have clan equivalents, MRM's, RAC's, Rocket launchers, X-pulse lasers, heavy gauss, and even heavy lasers (for clan)? What are we going to have to do to the RAC 5 which can shoot 6xAC 5 rounds for each trigger pull. Going through all this just to keep tech 1 garbage useful represents lost time (by PGI) that could be spent on many other things. For anyone whining TTK, remember my proposed solution (a locked heat cap set to 30 - like the game has always had) would quickly end 'alpha warrior online'.

I'm honestly not expecting to see those weapons enter the game. All of them are substantially more powerful than existing weapons, and even with faction vs. faction balance aside (it's highly likely they'd just go mixed tech at that point anyways) that would reduce TTK dramatically. That's just not going to happen.

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Imagine if we implemented the heat table (even partially) into MWO:

Heat 30 - shutdown
Heat 28, 23, 19 - chance of ammo explosion
Heat 26, 23, 19, 14 - chance of shutdown
Heat 25, 20, 15, 10, 5 - movement slowed
Heat 24, 17, 13, 8 - lose targeting reticle/information

Obviously we would have to test the percentages of each happening and maybe even eliminate the low heat impacts. But I'd rather be testing a change like this on the PTS. It would certainly make MWO, much more like TT and raise TTK by quite a bit. 'Alphaing' weapons really should be a last ditch measure, not a constant like we have now.

I've been 100% behind a low cap/high dissipation model since 2012, with penalties for running at higher heat.

[Wintersdark]

Put another way, saying:

Ok, IS players, your mechs are trash and not able to compete 1v1 with equally skilled Clan players is by design. But don't worry, in a year or two, we'll add stuff that brings you roughly on par with those Clan players who are absolutely wrecking you. Just sit tight, and have fun losing for the next couple years. Then, you'll get to have roughly balanced matches. Enjoy!

Is just not a viable option.

---

Currently, we've got massive quirks making some IS mechs as good as Clan mechs, if they use very specific builds that exploit which weapons are heavily quirked for them.

That solution does work, more or less, but it's not a good solution because it paralyzes weapon balancing efforts. PGI has tied their own hands, as any changes to specific weapon stats have substantial "downstream" impacts on the mechs with extreme quirks.

But removing those quirks without nerfing Clans just puts us back into a place where Clan mechs are objectively, massively better.

That may be "how they are supposed to be" from a tabletop standpoint (though as we've already addressed, the creator of Battletech himself has said that was a very bad idea), but it's just NOT a viable way to go for an online PvP game.

There are lots of potential (major) changes to game systems that (may) fix this otherwise - assymmetric battles, etc - but all have been addressed elsewhere and are simply impractical for some reason or other.

Massive weapon quirks have to go. They are a problem both from a "But teh lorez!" viewpoint and from a game mechanics viewpoint.

Nerfing ClanTech is the only way to do that and have a game where there is balance between the factions, where there isn't a massive change to fundamental game mechanics (which has it's own huge suit of issues that don't need discussing here). Clantech doesn't need to be identical(and shouldn't be), but it can't be objectively better in every (or most) way.

Too often, I see people rallying to the "But Clan Tech is supposed to be better" banner. I struggle to see this as anything other than "I just want to have a huge built-in advantage against other players". If this where an entirely different game, that may be viable, but it's not. We have the game we have. The vast majority of matches are mixed public queue matches. If Clantech was objectively better, matches would devolve into "The side with more Clan Mechs wins." And that sucks.

[NocturnalBeast]

Wintersdark, on 18 October 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

Put another way, saying:

Ok, IS players, your mechs are trash and not able to compete 1v1 with equally skilled Clan players is by design. But don't worry, in a year or two, we'll add stuff that brings you roughly on par with those Clan players who are absolutely wrecking you. Just sit tight, and have fun losing for the next couple years. Then, you'll get to have roughly balanced matches. Enjoy!

Is just not a viable option.

---

Currently, we've got massive quirks making some IS mechs as good as Clan mechs, if they use very specific builds that exploit which weapons are heavily quirked for them.

That solution does work, more or less, but it's not a good solution because it paralyzes weapon balancing efforts. PGI has tied their own hands, as any changes to specific weapon stats have substantial "downstream" impacts on the mechs with extreme quirks.

But removing those quirks without nerfing Clans just puts us back into a place where Clan mechs are objectively, massively better.

That may be "how they are supposed to be" from a tabletop standpoint (though as we've already addressed, the creator of Battletech himself has said that was a very bad idea), but it's just NOT a viable way to go for an online PvP game.

There are lots of potential (major) changes to game systems that (may) fix this otherwise - assymmetric battles, etc - but all have been addressed elsewhere and are simply impractical for some reason or other.

Massive weapon quirks have to go. They are a problem both from a "But teh lorez!" viewpoint and from a game mechanics viewpoint.

Nerfing ClanTech is the only way to do that and have a game where there is balance between the factions, where there isn't a massive change to fundamental game mechanics (which has it's own huge suit of issues that don't need discussing here). Clantech doesn't need to be identical(and shouldn't be), but it can't be objectively better in every (or most) way.

Too often, I see people rallying to the "But Clan Tech is supposed to be better" banner. I struggle to see this as anything other than "I just want to have a huge built-in advantage against other players". If this where an entirely different game, that may be viable, but it's not. We have the game we have. The vast majority of matches are mixed public queue matches. If Clantech was objectively better, matches would devolve into "The side with more Clan Mechs wins." And that sucks.

Clans should have never been added to this game, because the two mechanisms which were in place in TT to balance Clans vs IS, 10 V 12 and Zellbrigen, are not enforceable. 10 V 12 is doable, but apparently PGI does not have the time and or resources to make it work with the matchmaker. So this means that Clan mechs are going to be continually nerfed until they are nothing more than Clan mechs in appearance only. This is why I am glad that HBS is insisting on sticking with the 3025 era for BATTLETECH and saving the Clans for a possible sequel in the future. Yes, I know that PGI / IGP needed a cash cow and the best of the unseen mechs were still off limits at the time, so Clan mechs were their only choice.

And remember that MWO is "A BATTLETECH GAME", so yes, we do want "the lorez".

Edited by Ed Steele, 18 October 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Ed Steele, on 18 October 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Clans should have never been added to this game, because the two mechanisms which were in place in TT to balance Clans vs IS, 10 V 12 and Zellbrigen, are not enforceable. 10 V 12 is doable, but apparently PGI does not have the time and or resources to make it work with the matchmaker. So this means that Clan mechs are going to be continually nerfed until they are nothing more than Clan mechs in appearance only. This is why I am glad that HBS is insisting on sticking with the 3025 era for BATTLETECH and saving the Clans for a possible sequel in the future. Yes, I know that PGI / IGP needed a cash cow and the best of the unseen mechs were still off limits at the time, so Clan mechs were their only choice.

And remember that MWO is "A BATTLETECH GAME", so yes, we do want "the lorez".

I agree, and think this game would have been better if it stayed pre-Clan, but:

We have the game we have. There's no point in crying over spilled milk (re: "These things shouldn't have happened"/"This game should have had").

I'm not really interested in discussing what should have been. It's useless. I agree with most, but it's just pointless.

We have the game we have.

Clan mechs will remain unique, using their own (different) tech, but overall one clan mech must be roughly equivilant to one comparable in size IS mech.

It doesn't matter if you like that or not. That's the only way to go forward, given what we have now.

It's either done via nerfing Clan tech (increasing overall TTK in the game) or buffing IS tech (what we previously tried via quirks, which decreases overall TTK in the game).

[Tarl Cabot]

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That said, I fully agree that low cap : high dissipation is absolutely the way to go. Low cap forces players to break up weapon fire, rather than alpha-all-the-time, while high dissipation keeps actual damage output comparable

It just prevents them from firing a full tic as often but not necessarily to breaking it up. There currently is no reason to do otherwise cause the only penalty is when ya hit the hardcap itself, either shutdown + possible CT damage or override/move/fire+ possible damage anywhere. If they put in 2-3 other thresholds where mech speed was slowed and agility dropped, that would help change the behavior.

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Clan mechs will remain unique, using their own (different) tech, but overall one clan mech must be roughly equivilant to one comparable in size IS mech.

And imho, part of that would be to change what happens when a IS mech w/XL engine loses a side torso. Allow case to prevent the destruction of an IS mech w/XL engine but give it a higher high penalty. If/when LFE is added, provide it with approx same heat penalty as a Clan XL. And since this is not the boardgame, and while PGI has already modified some of the boardgame rules, this is one that I believe should be changed since we are no longer dealing with dice rolls.

If/when PGI has finished their PTS series, quirks, particularly IS mech weapon quirks will likely be very different then the Live versions.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 18 October 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Wintersdark, on 18 October 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

I agree, and think this game would have been better if it stayed pre-Clan, but:

We have the game we have. There's no point in crying over spilled milk (re: "These things shouldn't have happened"/"This game should have had").

I'm not really interested in discussing what should have been. It's useless. I agree with most, but it's just pointless.

We have the game we have.

Clan mechs will remain unique, using their own (different) tech, but overall one clan mech must be roughly equivilant to one comparable in size IS mech.

It doesn't matter if you like that or not. That's the only way to go forward, given what we have now.

It's either done via nerfing Clan tech (increasing overall TTK in the game) or buffing IS tech (what we previously tried via quirks, which decreases overall TTK in the game).

Which is exactly why I will not play Clan mechs any longer and will not spend another dime on them (although I have already wasted more than enough on them). So if they nerf Clan mechs into uselessness, then it will be no problem, it will just help to pad my K/D ratio.

[Wintersdark]

Ed Steele, on 18 October 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Which is exactly why I will not play Clan mechs any longer and will not spend another dime on them (although I have already wasted more than enough on them). So if they nerf Clan mechs into uselessness, then it will be no problem, it will just help to pad my K/D ratio.

Fair enough, though totally subjective and not really relevant.

Nerfing Clan mechs to be balanced against unquirked IS mechs is hardly "into uselessness" though, it just means they're not better than IS mechs. Unless your only definition of "useful" is "just better than what other players use".

[Medi0cr3]

PGI failing again....

[mountainchook]

Damn, I'm really late in the comments, couldn't read through everything. Seems like the changes will be good.
I'm hoping better target info gathering will be improved with the new targetting mechanics and when everyone works as a team.
I know it's not easy to do in pug matches. I should really join a clan.
But I like to avoid CT kills, it's always fun to "shred" an enemy mech and it's easier when the target information is acquired and shared faster. This can only be realized through teamwork.

[Dakkss]

Ed Steele, on 18 October 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

It is a highly advanced walking tank, not a WWI tank. Even modern battle tanks have stabilization for the weapons.

If you want to get all lore about it instead of gameplay balance, most of the battlemechs are no longer in production and are just maintained through salvage and scraps, with the knowledge to construct a new one from scratch lost. Not exactly super advanced technology either when you consider it's just a walking metal skeleton attached to a nuclear bomb for an engine with all weapons more or less existing in the present day except for high-focus lasers. Even electronic suites do not come stock on these massive machines and weigh upwards of 1.5 tons.

Advanced war machines? lol. Most of them are average at best for a millenia from now and people like that because it fits in with the bleak universe of battletech where resources are thin, tensions are high and only the best of battlemech pilots do well - the average go six feet under. It takes skill to pilot a battlemech in lore, but in MWO the battlemech does all of the skill for you.

Also modern MBT's don't walk or bounce their weapons ~4 meters up and down with each step. Nor are their weapons mounted on arms dangling 70 feet in the air. Bad analogy.

Edited by Dak Darklighter, 18 October 2015 - 06:08 PM.

[NocturnalBeast]

Dak Darklighter, on 18 October 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

If you want to get all lore about it instead of gameplay balance, most of the battlemechs are no longer in production and are just maintained through salvage and scraps, with the knowledge to construct a new one from scratch lost. Not exactly super advanced technology either when you consider it's just a walking metal skeleton attached to a nuclear bomb for an engine with all weapons more or less existing in the present day except for high-focus lasers. Even electronic suites do not come stock on these massive machines and weigh upwards of 1.5 tons.

Advanced war machines? lol. Most of them are average at best for a millenia from now and people like that because it fits in with the bleak universe of battletech where resources are thin, tensions are high and only the best of battlemech pilots do well - the average go six feet under. It takes skill to pilot a battlemech in lore, but in MWO the battlemech does all of the skill for you.

Also modern MBT's don't walk or bounce their weapons ~4 meters up and down with each step. Nor are their weapons mounted on arms dangling 70 feet in the air. Bad analogy.

Even if the tech never advanced beyond the Star League, it is still supposed to be over 800 years more advanced than what we have now (or at least what we had in the 80s). Just imagine how much technology has advanced since 1900 and then advance that 800 years to the time of the Star League (even though in 800 years if humans are still around we will probably be cyborgs and everything will be controlled by AI).

Edited by Ed Steele, 18 October 2015 - 07:10 PM.

[Dakkss]

Ed Steele, on 18 October 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Even if the tech never advanced beyond the Star League, it is still supposed to be over 800 years more advanced than what we have now (or at least what we had in the 80s). Just imagine how much technology has advanced since 1900 and then advance that 800 years to the time of the Star League (even though in 800 years if humans are still around we will probably be cyborgs and everything will be controlled by AI).

That is exactly the point. In 100 years we've gone from pistols to miniguns, bombs to nuclear ICBMs, horse and cart to MBT's, we've got smart phones and electric cars, etc, etc - yet in the BT Universe 1000 years passes, and all we manage is starfighters, dropships and sticking MBT's onto a pair of legs, with all the more advanced technologies lost. The only weapons that are beyond present day technology are Lasers, PPCs and Gauss Rifles (and we're not too far off Gauss in present day anyway). Mech sensory and electronic equipment is myopic compared to present day equipment.

Battlemechs really aren't so amazing for 1000 years worth of work.

[Jungle Rhino]

Wow - so for the last 2 years Clan mechs have been THIS OP

As a pure IS pilot I find the sweet salty Clan tears are tasty.

Although to be honest losing quirks will hurt IS as much as a 40% drop in laser range.

Love the changes to ECM - not sure if the radius needs to be decreased to 90m also?

Not sold on the lasers do less than full damage unless at 60% opt. range. Even writing that sentence is complicated... I see what they are trying to do - but it is just a bad way to do it. This game needs to be more of a sim. Sims work by combining complex but intuitive mechanics to promote and immersive environment. Sensor strength decreasing with range is fine - it makes sense. Heck even laser damage decreasing with range would be fine as that also makes sense (beam losing focus) - but not at a hard limit 60% cutoff mark. That is a bit too 'gamey' for my tastes. This idea should be binned, along with Ghost Heat - then bring in some reticule bob based on % of max speed to compensate for both of these issues.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

in BT Universe ...Build Aerospacefighters ,and can not build Missle Guidance systems better as the WW II german V1/V2...what have the Aerospacefighters for Systems for Stabilize and navigation ?????

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 19 October 2015 - 02:28 AM.