572 replies to this topic

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

D1SC0 LEM0NADE, on 13 October 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

Why do you need a lock to do damage? It's no longer battletech and has become mecha-robot online. Clans HAVE superior tech, IS always had the numbers. Three lance vs two stars would take care of much of the crying without need for further balance.

1) To promote teamwork. Awesome IMO.

2) We've tried LoreWarrior: Online with OP clan mechs. It sucks. Time to fix the game.

[Deathlike]

I also wanted to point out, but forgot about this.. is that this is a major nerf vs the ERLL... both IS and Clan.

You can't really snipe targets unless you have a target lock and if you have ECM, you have "virtual immunity" to those weapons. The laser changes w/o getting a "target lock" implies that the extended duration (weak damage per tic) is really going to suffer, and you're almost forced to use ERPPCs/Gauss to compensate. CERMEDs and IS LL will less likely to suffer as much as a consequence, but that's the most common application of the weapon... mid-range, so the effect of ECM is mitigated a little.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 13 October 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

Sensor ranges seem irrelevant for those that use their eyes. It's not enough of a differentiation (500m for an Assault is pretty generous).

It's a pretty significant difference given that lasers will do less damage to un-locked targets.

Quote

HS changes are a joke for SHS.

Sadly, when I first saw "single heat sinks" I got a bit excited, then realised... nope.

Quote

Please show your work... aka math.

Yeah, we really need clarification on how those two "max range" things work, the range reduction and the damage reduction.

[Homeskilit]

Glad to see changes in the works, keep the communication up!

[Navid A1]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 13 October 2015 - 06:35 PM, said:

This is true, but that is an INSANE damage drop off for clan small lasers, 200m = full damage 241m = nothing.

I believe that is 200m optimal + (0.6 x 200) = 200 + 120m extra.

it (probably) means 200 full damage and fall-off to zero damage as you go to 320m.

Kael 17, on 13 October 2015 - 06:41 PM, said:

Maximum range, Clan ER Large laser 888m (40% reduction)
Maximum range, IS ER Large Laser 1350m

No "Super long range lasers" due to weapon quirks on IS mechs.

Result: IS outranges Clans by 462 meters

Again, it is probably 740 m + (0.6 x 740m) = 1184 m (740 optimum and down to zero at 1184m. thats 444m extra.

Edited by Navid A1, 13 October 2015 - 07:41 PM.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 13 October 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

It's a pretty significant difference given that lasers will do less damage to un-locked targets.

Well, the ERLL is neutered a bit unfortunately. I get the annoyance that is the sniping Raven-3Ls and others, but now these are likely to be ineffective.

[Gryphorim]

I love the Information warfare changes, been waiting a long time to see that one.
ECM could have maybe kept it's range, it only needed the hard-lock-counter removed.
LRMs might need a buff to get through all the AMS people are going to use now.

Heatsink changes are interesting.
Upped values for both capacity and dissipation on SHS might make then useful to Wub-Assaults who can fit huge number of SHS, but seem to offer a balance of high-alpha and sustained fire.
Upped capacity on IS DHS makes them slightly more alpha friendly at all weight brackets.
Reduced capacity but increased dissipation on C-DHS makes them far more sustained fire focus.
I think the values look a little conservative but we'll see how this goes. I like the direction this is headed.

Laser values taking a hit on non-targeted targets - sciency-focal-length-mumbo-jumbo-reasons implied. I'm okay with this, as it's there to reduce pinpoint laser vomit damage some.
Clan laser taking a hit to MAX range, not optimal range, good way of balancing the tech, as optimal is the only value from TT, so it's still "lore-friendly" but gives IS some fighting chance. Exact values for this and duration will make-or-break this decision, tho.

Also, keeping in mind, some version of the per-chassis quirks we currently have (though greatly reduced) and/or the armour and mobility quirks from PTS1 will be implimented in the final build, so it'll be interesting to see how this all comes together.

[Wildstreak]

Variable Equipment / Weapon health sounds good, the flat rate for almost all weapons has really been a problem.

Reducing range of Clan lasers?

Adjusting HS values sounds interesting and like a IS buff. I do not see any disparity except Clan lasers had heat increases.

ECM, knew it was coming, expect LRMs. I think some of the anti-ECM stuff could be removed if the ECM changes go into effect, they were made based on how strong ECM is and now would not be needed so much anymore. I know this includes NARC and PPCs, I forget if TAG and BAP were modified too.

Now the IW stuff, will this include removing some of the strangeness with the targeting reticule and how some Mechs, if I press C or F to center torso / legs, they will actually center instead of go partway then stop?

Targeting reticule not flashing when not locked enemies are hit, how useless does that make Strikes? Plenty of times you drop one and tell how good it was from reticule flashes of not locked enemies. Is this and the other change designed to punish people for not hitting the R key?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Navid A1, on 13 October 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

I believe that is 200m optimal + (0.6 x 200) = 120m extra.

it means 200 full damage and fall-off to zero damage as you go to 320m.

not sure how did you end up with 241m?

If PGI's word is taken literally, here is the math. cERSL current Max Range: 400m, 400 * 0.6 = 240m.
Now if what they actually meant was that the extra range provided after optimal range had been reduced to 60% than that would be a tolerable 320m, because that'd be 200 + (200 * 0.6) = 320. I hope they are just failing to convey what they mean, but I honestly do not have faith that that is the case.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Is this how the laser reduction is going to work?

Medium Laser used as an example:




Or is it something goofy like this?

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 13 October 2015 - 07:58 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

MoonUnitBeta, on 13 October 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Is this how the laser reduction is going to work?

Medium Laser used as an example:

I hope so, but I doubt it.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 13 October 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

I hope so, but I doubt it.

I hope so too...
Updated with a new image.

[Chocowolf Sradac]

Wintersdark, on 13 October 2015 - 06:45 PM, said:

lol IS regular large laser outranges clan erll >.<

With the Quirking of the IS

IS Lasers have outranged Clan for awhile now (stalker 4N anyone?)

[Wintersdark]

Chocowolf, on 13 October 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

With the Quirking of the IS

IS Lasers have outranged Clan for awhile now (stalker 4N anyone?)

IS ERLL outranges Clan IRLL now on quirked chassis, yes, but unquirked on the test server ever IS LL (and, obviously, IS ERLL) will outrange cERLL. Even the regular LL.

I'm not raging about this mind you. Maybe it'll work out. It just seems really wierd.

Consider: IS LL light, Clan ERLL Heavy. Light is fast enough tonstay out of Clan Heavy detection range, so the clan heavy cannot lock. The IS Light has longer range with its regular Large Lasers than the ERLL heavy, and the added damage falloff on the Heavy renders its ERLL's even less useful.

Maybe this will be a good thing? But it's strange! To have Large Lasers be better than ER LL at everything except short range? Bafflingly odd.

[Coralld]

I'm really liking these changes, they co-inside in much of what I have been theory crafting about, particularly the max range reduction to Clan lasers. Now, before people fly off the handle bars I play both Clan and IS and enjoy them both greatly. But be that as it may, I must admit, the range of Clan lasers are in many instances over the top.

If I understand correctly, they are hitting the Max range of Clan lasers ONLY and does not effect optimal range.
So currently...
C-ERMLs Optimal = 405m / Max = 810m (before range change)
Vs.
IS-MLs Optimal = 270m / Max = 540

That is a huge difference
Now lets look at it with the reduction to max range. I'm going to round the numbers for simplicity sake for my self by changing the 40% to 50%.
C-ERMLs Optimal = 405m / Max = 610m (roughly after the change)
Vs.
IS-MLs Optimal = 270m / Max = 540
That looks far more balanced and Clans still get to keep their Optimal range advantage

C-ERLL Optimal = 740m / Max = 1,480 (before range change)
Vs.
IS-LL Optimal = 450m / Max = 900m
IS-ERLL Otimal = 675m / Max = 1,350

After the changes...
C-ERLL Optimal = 740m / Max = 1,110m (roughly after the change)
Vs.
IS-LL Optimal = 450m / Max = 900m
IS-ERLL Otimal = 675m / Max = 1,350

The C-ERLL is still vastly better than the IS-LL in every respect when it comes to range. the IS-ERLL on the other hand is where its a little weird. The Clan ERLL still has better optimal than the IS one but not by much, and the Max ranges are wonky. Perhaps the IS-ERLL Max range should be reduced to say 1,000m

Edited by Coralld, 13 October 2015 - 08:47 PM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

I'm so excited. A lot of this stuff looks really good. The only thing I'm scratching my head at is the reduced laser damage when not locked to a target. This seems like an extremely obtuse way to nerf lasers.

[Mystere]

Loud and constant whining to the high heavens can and does work on the very weak-kneed. Sigh!

And the kicker? Clan double heat sinks being almost equivalent to IS single heat sinks is ******* hilarious. Clan ER lasers becoming short range weapons are doubly so.

Edited by Mystere, 13 October 2015 - 09:10 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Coralld, on 13 October 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

I'm really liking these changes, they co-inside in much of what I have been theory crafting about, particularly the max range reduction to Clan lasers. Now, before people fly off the handle bars I play both Clan and IS and enjoy them both greatly. But be that as it may, I must admit, the range of Clan lasers are in many instances over the top.

If I understand correctly, they are hitting the Max range of Clan lasers ONLY and does not effect optimal range.
So currently...
C-ERMLs Optimal = 405m / Max = 810m (before range change)
Vs.
IS-MLs Optimal = 270m / Max = 540

That is a huge difference
Now lets look at it with the reduction to max range. I'm going to round the numbers for simplicity sake for my self by changing the 40% to 50%.
C-ERMLs Optimal = 405m / Max = 610m (roughly after the change)
Vs.
IS-MLs Optimal = 270m / Max = 540
That looks far more balanced and Clans still get to keep their Optimal range advantage

C-ERLL Optimal = 740m / Max = 1,480 (before range change)
Vs.
IS-LL Optimal = 450m / Max = 900m
IS-ERLL Otimal = 675m / Max = 1,350

After the changes...
C-ERLL Optimal = 740m / Max = 1,110m (roughly after the change)
Vs.
IS-LL Optimal = 450m / Max = 900m
IS-ERLL Otimal = 675m / Max = 1,350

The C-ERLL is still vastly better than the IS-LL in every respect when it comes to range. the IS-ERLL on the other hand is where its a little weird. The Clan ERLL still has better optimal than the IS one but not by much, and the Max ranges are wonky. Perhaps the IS-ERLL Max range should be reduced to say 1,000m

well, that depends on how "reduced the Max range" works.

If its Max range = 1480-(1480*.4) which is the literal answer, then clan ERLL ends up at 888m Max range - way below the is ERLL and even below the is LL. I hope its as you and others have suggested, as that does make more sense, though it is not what they said.

In the past, I've argued "Clearly what they meant was...." many times, but I've been wrong every time I said that... So we'll have to see. Thus far, they've always meant exactly what they said.

We'll see tomorrow though, and of course its a PTS so there no need to wave pitchforks.

And you know what? If they totally mangled Clan lasers, completely and utterly, but still fixed ECM as shown? I'd be happy. Stat changes to fix lasers later are more likely than functional ecm changes.

[Madok Pryde]

if Clan tech it to be crippled to the point it is no longer Clan, why bother?
why would i want to spend more $$ on new mechs if they will be no different than the IS?

[Santos Villalobos]

InnerSphereNews, on 13 October 2015 - 05:14 PM, said:

Weapon and targeting reticle mechanics when target is not locked

• The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.
  
• Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.

How does a target lock affect the strength of a laser beam? Please provide some explanation - I'm tired of these oddball, shoehorned systems that lack any in-universe sense (like ghost heat).