101 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

What is harder to identify is the impact of the 'way less damage on unlocked target' part, which because of the ubiquity of ECM for Clan mechs significantly offsets the IS range advantage with lasers.

Interestingly, in a hypothetical sense, what this does is reward Clan players for playing aggressively and moving to their optimal range (which is still further out than the IS optimal range) while rewarding IS players for using more complex tactics (spotters, scouts, kiting sniper fire, etc) to try and exploit a reduced damage range advantage.

So IS with ACs has some solid point blank hitting power (also higher heat cap), is weak in the 300-600m range, then sees an opportunity for greatly reduced hitting power in the 600-1600 range. Both are still going to be solid hitters with LRMs, Gauss and PPCs.

It carves a new niche for PPCs and ballistics as well as missiles.

What we really need is to have this up for a WHILE. I'm going to need a good 50+ matches to suss this out.

[Erkki]

Threads like these truly reveal who want the game to become better and who just keep holding onto their crutches at any costs.

Balance is good for the new and old players alike, game diversity, fun and ultimately size of the playerbase and thus PGI's income and business.

People who just want to shoot up stuff that cant fight back in a Timber Wolf can and should go play MW4 single player or MegaMek against the bot. PrincessBot doesnt care if she needs to fight Timbies with 3025 tech.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Here's how the values should be calculated seeing how changes have previously been done.

110 M ___ 2.0x = 220 M - IS SPL
135 M ___ 2.0x = 270 M - IS SL
220 M ___ 2.0x = 440 M - IS MPL
270 M ___ 2.0x = 540 M - IS ML
365 M ___ 2.0x = 730 M - IS LPL
450 M ___ 2.0x = 900 M - IS LL
675 M ___ 2.0x =1350 M - IS ERLL

165 M ___ 1.6x = 264 M - C-SPL
200 M ___ 1.6x = 320 M - C-SL
330 M ___ 1.6x = 528 M - C-MPL
405 M ___ 1.6x = 648 M - C-ERML
600 M ___ 1.6x = 960 M - C-LPL
740 M ___ 1.6x =1184 M - C-ERLL

Hey, I'd gladly trade the 166 M difference between the IS ERLL and C-ERLL for a mix of a shorter beam duration and difference in Heat.

Say have both 1.25 Duration, lower the C-ERLL Damage to 10, to go with 10 Heat and have the IS ERLL go up to at least 9 Heat then tweak further from there.

Otherwise IS ERLL could go to 592 M so that 2.0x = 1184 M

[Mycrus]

Lucky Moniker, on 13 October 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

I understand the idea of balancing clans to IS, but we can do this in a way that doesn't completely negate the entire point on Clan tech.

I know this is a very old and repeated topic here, but this is becoming more and more of an issue still.

I get it, you already sold your clan packs, so now you can nerf them into uselessness because you already made your money off of them and you want to make all your new IS packages more attractive.

THIS is why so many people have stopped playing your game PGI.

The proposed changes to clan tech are just absurd. You are killing the clans and chasing away your own customers.

So basically akuma needs a buff..

Golf clap..

[Karl Streiger]

Praetor Knight, on 13 October 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

Say have both 1.25 Duration, lower the C-ERLL Damage to 10, to go with 10 Heat and have the IS ERLL go up to at least 9 Heat then tweak further from there.

now its 9dmg 1.25 beam vs 11 1.5dmg beam - if you take the dps of both you got:
7.2 vs 7.3dmg at effective range - that is balanced friends
given that the effective range of the Clan ER is longer - it gets more heat not to mention its weight and crits - that is balanced

currently the ER C Large Laser: deals all the time more damage as the IS ER Large.... when the IS ER LArge does 0 dmg the Clan ER does still 2dmg.

With the reduction of range - the IS ER Large Laser deals at some range "MORE" dmg - exactly at 1000m with 3dmg (for a second burn) or 3.75 for the complete burn. (the complete burn of the C-ER would be 4.5 however)

Your proposal:
will destroy the balance at effective range: 7.2 vs 8
you give more heat towards a weapon that is already heavier and uses more crits - not to mention the reduced effective range

[visionGT4]

Seems to me the easymoders posting in this thread have a mental age of 12. The tears and entitlement are beyond belief.

[Nightshade24]

At the current momment of quirks many mechs for the clans are questionable. Since nearly half got no Endo / ferro, a quarter do not have either. And due to hard-wiring you got situations like a mech (Shadowcat) that spends tons on MASC when the same tons on the engine would do better speed and slightly less agility without exploding at 75% threshold. Or with boated JJ/ other equipment with little impact. no ferro/ endo, some mechs lose there advantage of having an XL engine over a Standard in some cases...

On top of that but the hitbox on many clan mechs and/or shape already is a disadvantage quite strange that most IS mechs do not have. ie novas profile being very very wide, arms exposed (majority of firepower), and the arms very spread apart thus convergence is an issue, especially for range. Or the Stormcrow having a huge 'hunch' that makes it hard to use cover and causes a delusion of the mech having high hardpoints.... not going on and saying the stormcrow is underpowered and needs buffs in every way... but it is a rather big impact relatively, simular to king crab but the kingcrab to a less relative degree.

I personally think the ballance in some areas are spot on, such as clan UAC's, Clan SRM's and LRM's and such, etc...
But lasers... AC/ LBX... SSRM... Pulse lasers... ER PPC... makes me kinda iffy.

I would prefer if clan AC just fire half there shots... well in away, AC 2 and 5 = 1 shot, Ac 10 and 20 = 2 shots. (an idea, 1 less shot reduction may work... which basically only changes AC 20 to fire 3 instead of 2 or 4 shots.)
I think Clan lasers need ghost heat reworked (to many loopholes, and 'other' loopholes butchered which are not even going to be an option anyway... I'm talking about you ER small, ER medium, Pulse small, pulse medium ghost heat link... IS do not even have ghost heat on 3 of those weapons... let alone linked). However besides heat/ ghost heat changes I would preffer or think that reducing max range to be much more closer to it's effective range may work. Giving it a contrast that maybe a IS ER large laser could reach further but the clan ones reaches further with full damage until the drop.
Pulse lasers having much higher rate of fire, lower damage and heat, and making it more like a "laser machine gun" as it was more like in MW4 and 2 which is lore friendly as pulse lasers had 2 firing modes...


but enough with suggestions on improvement and personal opinions. I do think the clans are kind of hated in MW: O. It is showing... PGI thought it was completely acceptable by nerfing the timberwolf and stormcrow earlier and a few other nerfs... guessed what happened? virtually no one played clans in CW, Timberwolfs are nearly as common as summoners. There was a minor community backlash as well as a huge drop overall. It was evident by the game- both meta and casual, that This was not the best choice of action. They thought it was right but apparently wrong.(it does depend of opinions on things... some IS extremists see "clan ER mediums being 1 slot 1 ton large lasers, some clan extremists see it as an overly hot and long durration medium laser that isn't worth the extra 2 damage) Depends how you look at it...

other signs of 'bias' as some have said is the price different between clan and IS ,it is true that clan mechs have more stuff on it at start, ie endo, ferro, etc... but it is also true some mechs do not have those, or good ones, ie nova, summoner, Direwolf (in terms of endo/ ferro), etc... and more and more recent IS packs show more and more DHS, Endo, etc...
There is also the fact clan warhorns cost more then IS, which is silly considering the fact they are only sounds played by a cockpit item that effectively do the same thing but different noises. This may be to preserve the value of the Clan packs but that's already lacking... also things like endo can be bought with c-bills, things like paint, paint patterns, etc is with IRL money which the IS have a lot more...
I do wish for a slight normalisation here... I do hope it's normalised for clan hero mechs as well. I do not want to buy a 100 dollar hero warhawk or a 120 dollar direwolf. 120 dollars is enough to get the invasion direwolf as well as 2 variants, and 3 mechs with 2 standard and 1 invasion variant each bellow it... (kitfox, nova, summoner). Just an example...

[Randall Flagg]

HODOR!!!

[Curccu]

Lucky Moniker, on 13 October 2015 - 10:36 PM, said:

well that is already for sale and people have purchased it so it falls into the same category. Nerfing things that you dropped hundreds of dollars on.

Any one feeling that so badly can cancel that order.
Personally I own top tier of every clan pack and I don't have issues them trying to balancing the game.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Karl Streiger, on 13 October 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

now its 9dmg 1.25 beam vs 11 1.5dmg beam - if you take the dps of both you got:
7.2 vs 7.3dmg at effective range - that is balanced friends
given that the effective range of the Clan ER is longer - it gets more heat not to mention its weight and crits - that is balanced

currently the ER C Large Laser: deals all the time more damage as the IS ER Large.... when the IS ER LArge does 0 dmg the Clan ER does still 2dmg.

With the reduction of range - the IS ER Large Laser deals at some range "MORE" dmg - exactly at 1000m with 3dmg (for a second burn) or 3.75 for the complete burn. (the complete burn of the C-ER would be 4.5 however)

I would actually prefer using a different way of calculating beam duration to damage per tic. I have been looking at 0.18 duration per 1 damage on regular lasers, and considering 0.26 per 1 damage on ER prior to seeing the info on having Targeting affect damage:

Spoiler

Also, I was considering the values with different numbers for HS. 0.4 Diss, 2.0 Cap IS, and 0.3 Diss, 1.6 Cap Clan.

So sure, I can see where you are coming from with what you present, I do need to adjust more going with the PTS HS values.

Here is what I was looking at with the weapons making fewer changes, that I was suggesting earlier.

[Karl Streiger]

Praetor Knight, on 14 October 2015 - 12:48 AM, said:

I would actually prefer using a different way of calculating beam duration to damage per tic. I have been looking at 0.18 duration per 1 damage on regular lasers, and considering 0.26 per 1 damage on ER prior to seeing the info on having Targeting affect damage:

Spoiler

Also, I was considering the values with different numbers for HS. 0.4 Diss, 2.0 Cap IS, and 0.3 Diss, 1.6 Cap Clan.

So sure, I can see where you are coming from with what you present, I do need to adjust more going with the PTS HS values.

Here is what I was looking at with the weapons making fewer changes, that I was suggesting earlier.

Damage per tic is a good idea either.

Just food for thoughts:

Spoiler

I "my" system i did use the weight of a system including ammunition and tons needed for heat sinks.
And i did cumulate the damage of a weapon per range band of 10m....(for example CERLLAS ...730m +11;740+11;750+10.8??)

In the end i got 2 values - an Alpha value and a DPS Value:
for example:

Type	AV	DPSV
AC 20	561	140
AC 10	477	191
AC 5	432	260
AC 2	401	557

In the end the system looked good when you just consider a single class of weapons: for example Autocanons vs Autocannons - but it was complete bad for Laser weapons - with the ER-Small Laser ruling - as the best weapon in game.

C ER S LAS

3630

1613

I didn't found enough spare time to use another approach (like you did with the "shots in 10sec")
I did want to add 5 Windows of Engagements <1sec;3sec;5sec;10sec and unlimited.... as well as typical chassis to carry that weapon including boating effects.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

This thread is kinda pointless for now. We don't even know how exactly that nerf will work.

Some think it's gonna be overall 40% range nerf
So CERML will go from 400/800 to 240/480

Some think it will reduce max range only by 40% of total max range
So CERML will go from 400/800 to 400/480

Some think it will reduce max range by 40% of difference between optimal and max range
So CERML will go from 400/800 to 400/640

We all know how sloppy PGI can be at explaining changes, and how crazy they can be with their balance ideas. Any of the above can be true. It can be a HUUGEE nerf and it can be a slight nerf. Clan lasers can have much less max range than IS ones in this PTS, or they can still have larger range, just not by so much as prior. I know some people love their mechs so much they go crazy at the very idea of the nerf (remember TBR nerf and cries it will be useless? Oh yeah, those cries were so accurate about TBR being useless now).

Just wait and see. Calm your PPC nipples. Please.

EDIT: took 400 instead of 405 for easier math.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 14 October 2015 - 02:08 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

target lock for lasors to get full damage ?

someone tell them, drugs can kill them, pls....

[Karl Streiger]

Titannium, on 14 October 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

target lock for lasors to get full damage ?

nice addition - i wish that we can have this for all weapon system. and we are talking only about 60% of the MAX range...
so up to 710m a Clan ER Large Laser will hit with full force
Well for ER Small Lasers there is no excuse not to lock on.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

We still have losses when we fight Clans with our IS Mechs. 48:12? Ups. Those losses had been dropship kills.
Stop Mimimi. Better nerf Clandropships. They are OP.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Marc von der Heide, on 14 October 2015 - 02:10 AM, said:

We still have losses when we fight Clans with our IS Mechs. 48:12? Ups. Those losses had been dropship kills.
Stop Mimimi. Better nerf Clandropships. They are OP.

who cares about that <5% that plays CW stomps. NOBODY.

[Yellonet]

Anything that will make clans less op is a good thing. Die Clanners!!

[Black Ivan]

The change hurts the not top tier Clan Mechs most. I wonder how it will end out in the end

[Clownwarlord]

The proposed changes are in correlation to the PTS? If not then this thread makes no since because the main servers are not implementing these changes (yet), correct?

As for the topic I disagree and agree at the same time. The idea of bringing the clan tech down to that of IS would work for balancing. It would actually mean the majority of the quirks can go away if not all of them. By doing this you also have the point it is ruining the lore behind the clans. Out of the two arguments even though they both are correct I would fall with wanting to have a balanced game over having one side being over-powering because of lore. Unless you are a clan all the time player you should be happy about this because you finally are getting a more balanced game, but if you are clan player all the time then go ahead have your tantrum because you are finally losing your crutch and now have to play against IS players on a more level playing field.

So ultimately would you rather have a balanced game or a lore based game (which PGI said they are not here to follow the lore because then everything would be based off the table top)?

[BloodMate]

Don't forget that this is NOT Battletech. And PGI only follows Battletech Lore for a starting point and then from there changes things as they see fit. Like the timeline, the ecm we've had all this time and so on. We want lore followed and they aren't following it in areas that they can. So just accept that we might as well all toss the lore out the window and focus on what we like and don't like about what PGI is going with THEIR game and what we'd like them to do without letting Battletech Lore get in the way.

Their focus is on doing whatever they can to make this game appeal to as many players as they can to make as much $$ as they can. Battletech Lore was just a way to lure in the fan base that allowed them to make this game happen in the first place. This is NOT Battletech, it's Mechwarrior online.

They have to fix the issue between Clan and IS mechs. They lost a lot of players (those that just don't log into the game anymore) because clan mechs are OP. IS LRM's are WORTHLESS now in CW and even most PUG matches. CW isn't even close to what they said it was going to be. We can't take a planet and then build up our bases, build mech, weapon, engine or equipment factories or mine for minerals and make c-bills for our units. Right now all that's really happening in CW is that most of the best Merc units are under Clan contracts and they’re the ones taking all the planets. They switch to the other factions to farm mechbays and then return to their favorite Clan Faction and still get to keep their unit tag on the few planets they took during their one week contract to get a free mechbay. Despite the fact that LORE says that the Clans DIDN'T USE MERCS! Talk about an unbalancing issue... OMG!!!!!!!

I appreciate all the hard work that PGI has put into this game and look forward to seeing all the IMPROVEMENTS they will be making in the future.