127 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

It's supposed to be a shield that reduces laser damage?

It's supposed to screw around with targeting computers and sensors without acting like a combination of the Angel ECM and Stealth armor.

[Mystere]

Rushin Roulette, on 14 October 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

I was thinking myself that the change regarding the lasers for targeted or untargeted mechs was a terrible idea until this....

Make this change the same for all weapons... if you dont target, then they deal less damage. Its just so frustrating spectating someone who never uses the R button and insists on shooting a fresh torso on a legged mech. Having these players deal less damage is worth it to me that I may or may not deal a little less damage on a potshot towards a target of oppertunity.

Unfortunately, that just does not work for bullets, unlike lasers which can be explained as needing to be "focused" (while holding my nose at that thought).

[FupDup]

Foxfire, on 14 October 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

It's supposed to screw around with targeting computers and sensors without acting like a combination of the Angel ECM and Stealth armor.

The PTS is going to give it laser shield functionality.

[Foxfire]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

The PTS is going to give it laser shield functionality.

The ECM on PTS will only be messing around with target acquisition speed (which is what it should be doing). Anything else is an issue with the other changes in mechanics, not with ECM.

Edited by Foxfire, 14 October 2015 - 01:39 PM.

[Mystere]

The Ratfink, on 14 October 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

Hmmm where did you come from? A well thought out and intelligent post, you don't belong on a game forum, burn the heretic!!!!

Did someone say burn?

[FupDup]

Foxfire, on 14 October 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

The ECM on PTS will only be messing around with target acquisition speed (which is what it should be doing). Anything else is an issue with the other changes in mechanics, not with ECM.

I'll break it down into pieces:

Premise 1: The PTS will make lasers deal less damage past 60% of their max range if they don't have a target lock.

Premise 2: The PTS ECM will delay the time it takes for enemy mechs to get a target lock on you.

Conclusion: ECM will give the user a few moments of reduced laser damage at range before the enemy can acquire their red dorito.

Edited by FupDup, 14 October 2015 - 01:42 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Lasers have both focal length and attenuation to deal with. A lack of precise data on where you want the laser to 'end' can impact its effectiveness. It's why lasers are lensed. Think of it like using a magnifying glass to burn something. You need to adjust the focus to a precise point to make it properly effective. You're talking about a moving firing point and a moving end point, it needs precise telemetry on the end point to be 100% effective.

that's the logic I've settled on to justify it.

For IW to work information needs to be valuable. I'm willing to give it a shot. It adds a degree of complexity that I like. Far more than ghost heat.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 October 2015 - 01:46 PM.

[1Grimbane]

just allow us all to equip a bfg. enable instagib and add bullet-time, boom mwo fixed

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

Lasers have both focal length and attenuation to deal with. A lack of precise data on where you want the laser to 'end' can impact its effectiveness. It's why lasers are lensed. Think of it like using a magnifying glass to burn something. You need to adjust the focus to a precise point to make it properly effective. You're talking about a moving firing point and a moving end point, it needs precise telemetry on the end point to be 100% effective.

that's the logic I've settled on to justify it.

For IW to work information needs to be valuable. I'm willing to give it a shot. It adds a degree of complexity that I like. Far more than ghost heat.

In other words, laser shield. Gotcha.

PS: The game already tells you the distance between your mech and your aiming reticule instantly, so the mech does actually know where its aiming its guns even without a Red Dorito.

[Tombstoner]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 01:35 PM, said:

The PTS is going to give it laser shield functionality.

Given PGI's stance on COF a damage reduction to a non locked target makes scene. its not the laser thats needs to be focused its the spot its focused on. its fundamental to how laser weapons work. Its also why The star wars defense program is vaporware. all you need to do to defeat a laser is rotate at high speed and the time on target to burn a hole becomes incredibly short requiring magical levels of accuracy or massive power output. ECM being the magic goto box is perfectly capable of laser shielding. cant damage what you cant hit consistent.

[Foxfire]

Which, as I said, is an issue with the change in mechanics in the laser, not with the ECM.

There are also other methods that can be paired with lasers (e.g. TAG) that will negate any said benefit.

There is no need to break it down because I fully comprehend the notes about what is going to happen on the PTS. I am, however, separating this into separate issues.

For example, the ECM change isn't the same issue as the weight class based sensor range limitations isn't the same as the changes to Lasers (both functionality and Clan laser nerfs).

They feed into each other but they are each separate entities that need to be treated as such.

[Apathy Enrage]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 01:24 PM, said:

It's supposed to be a shield that reduces laser damage?

Guys, that happens after 60% of MAXIMUM range... It's not that bad! Holy smokes, people need to chill about that!

[FupDup]

Foxfire, on 14 October 2015 - 01:47 PM, said:

Which, as I said, is an issue with the change in mechanics in the laser, not with the ECM.

There are also other methods that can be paired with lasers (e.g. TAG) that will negate any said benefit.

There is no need to break it down because I fully comprehend the notes about what is going to happen on the PTS. I am, however, separating this into separate issues.

For example, the ECM change isn't the same issue as the weight class based sensor range limitations isn't the same as the changes to Lasers (both functionality and Clan laser nerfs).

They feed into each other but they are each separate entities that need to be treated as such.

"Separate" entities that affect each other aren't really so separate.

[Foxfire]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

"Separate" entities that affect each other aren't really so separate.

Unless you can have one without the other. There is no interdependency between each change other than the overall theme seeming to be to encourage the use of scouting.

*edits to add*

Overall, the only real dependency that exists is that each change is dependent upon the idea of making target acquisition a time based activity instead of having instant target painting. Without that concept, none of these other changes really function.

Edited by Foxfire, 14 October 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

FupDup, on 13 October 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

Lasers doing less damage against unlocked targets at certain ranges is especially derpy.

It amazes me that they somehow figured out how to screw people over make lasers less effective depending on if they're targeted or not... but can't figure out how to switch LBX ammo from shot to slug. *shrugs*

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

In other words, laser shield. Gotcha.

PS: The game already tells you the distance between your mech and your aiming reticule instantly, so the mech does actually know where its aiming its guns even without a Red Dorito.

Distance isn't telemetry. It needs a lock to accurately predict variations in target surface and projected positioning of the target relative to firing position.

Or something like that.

In reality the effective use of a laser on a moving target from a moving target needs a lot more info than is provided in game. Not that I think realism is something this game needs I can reasonably justify it. Not so for ballistics and ppcs (though you could reduce their accuracy without locks for the same reason).

Don't blow this off on GP because you don't like the cut of its jib. The result should be rewarding IW use, making information useful, increasing ttk, adding tactical depth and making the range advantage of is lasers situational not absolute. That isn't a bad thing.

Test it, review it and provide telemetry. This set of tests is actually really good compared to every other PTS run. Don't be such a negative nancy.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 October 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[Mystere]

saKhan Ds00 Kerensky, on 14 October 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

It amazes me that they somehow figured out how to screw people over make lasers less effective depending on if they're targeted or not... but can't figure out how to switch LBX ammo from shot to slug. *shrugs*

It amazes me how Oracle, a multi billion dollar company, is unable to fix old bugs in their PeopleSoft system -- which they charge millions of dollars in licensing -- and would rather just create workarounds while at the same time adding more features so they can charge even more money. *shrugs*

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

...The result should be rewarding IW use, making information useful, increasing ttk, adding tactical depth and making the range advantage of is lasers situational not absolute. That isn't a bad thing.

What I'm expecting is more along the lines of most laser mechs equipping BAP and/or TAG, or perhaps a new meta shift if the values are large enough. Let's not romanticize or sugar-coat here.

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

Test it, review it and provide telemetry. This set of tests is actually really good compared to every other PTS run. Don't be such a negative nancy.

You're not setting the baseline very high there...

[Tombstoner]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 01:44 PM, said:

Lasers have both focal length and attenuation to deal with. A lack of precise data on where you want the laser to 'end' can impact its effectiveness. It's why lasers are lensed. Think of it like using a magnifying glass to burn something. You need to adjust the focus to a precise point to make it properly effective. You're talking about a moving firing point and a moving end point, it needs precise telemetry on the end point to be 100% effective.

that's the logic I've settled on to justify it.

For IW to work information needs to be valuable. I'm willing to give it a shot. It adds a degree of complexity that I like. Far more than ghost heat.

Just add a COF and be done with it. gives targeting computers something to do. heat goes up aim get worse. running at full speed its gets even worse... jump and worse still. critical hit to a gyro even worse. then add in a pilot skill modifier reflecting how elite your pilot is and let match maker use that to create some balance. kinda like how TT did it....almost like the weapon stats and mech design rules took that into account....odd that its not part of the game....

Ah yes its not TT or a sim but something for broad mass appeal....
the thinking mans shooter with severe positive skew. At this point PGI need anything and everything to lower damage. Otherwise as the time line advances TTK will drop problematically.

[Rakshasa]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

In other words, laser shield. Gotcha.

PS: The game already tells you the distance between your mech and your aiming reticule instantly, so the mech does actually know where its aiming its guns even without a Red Dorito.

Maybe mech armour is impregnated with laser-scattering crystalline structures and the target lock lets the mech adjust the frequency of the beam to compensate? Iunno I'm all for trying new mechanics, just some of them seem a bit...left field...