72 replies to this topic

[Illya Ghost Bear]

http://mwomercs.com/...ce-pts-phase-2/

Seriously people.....

Take a deep breath, stop being a bunch of chicken littles. The sky is not falling. They are specifically testing a bunch of mechanics to gather data. And further tweaks and PTS will work from there.



make up your bloody minds...and stop overreacting.

Also, a quick and easy translation for those inclined to not add 2 and 2 to get 4:
1)

Targeting Mechanics

Weapon and targeting reticle mechanics when target is not locked

• The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked.
  
• Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.

Reticle mechanics when target is locked

• The targeting reticle will now change color and shape when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is target-locked.

------Pretty simple, actually. Testing ideas to reduce focus fire to improve TTK. Now you and your 11 friends have to be either close, or target that poor schlub before melting him efficiently with focused fire. I don't know what I think of the idea til I test it, but at least they are testing concepts beyond the idiot "half weapon damage, or redouble mech armor". So kudos for thinking outside the box, even if it doesn't work.

2)
Sensor Range
All ‘Mechs start with a baseline Sensor Range of 500m. Through the application of Sensor Range Quirks on a per-variant basis, individual variants can receive an increase to their baseline Sensor Range.
Post-Quirk Sensor Ranges will generally fall into the value regions listed below, according to weight class:

• Light ‘Mechs: ~900m Sensor Range.
  
• Medium ‘Mechs: ~800m Sensor Range.
  
• Heavy ‘Mechs: ~700-750m Sensor Range.
  
• Assault ‘Mechs: ~500-650m Sensor Range.

Target Acquisition Rate

• The Target Acquisition Rate for all ‘Mechs during this test phase is 0 seconds.
  
• Target Acquisition Rate can be quirked on a per-variant level, but there are no Target Acquisition Rate Quirks in place for this test phase.
  
• Target Acquisition Rates are affected by ECM.
  
• The Target Acquisition Delay caused by ECM for all ‘Mechs during this test phase is 3 seconds.

Target Information Sharing

• Target information sharing is now based on the distance between the target and the first teammate, then from the distance of that teammate to all other teammates.

--------Again...pretty obvious, a combination of trying to get more actual symbiosis between lights and the rest of the units. And reducing LRMvomit, which might presage and allow other LRM buffs. Your LRMstalker will, for this phase of the test, need to be tied into a targeting feed from other units to be able to sit back 1000m and rain missiles. For people who use LRMs well in the first place, you are usually inside 500meters....so not a big deal, aside from trying to tag the incidental.

Again-...... will it work? Dunno. But glad to see them testing something like this.

Edited by Illya Arkhipova, 13 October 2015 - 06:57 PM.

[Burktross]

Wait, there's a new pts?

[Illya Ghost Bear]

"The exact changes detailed further in this post should not be taken as the entirety of what the final re-balance will entail, nor are the changes listed here necessarily ‘locked in’ for any final release.
The end-goal of these public test sessions are to work toward a complete re-balance of the game’s core combat systems."

[orcrist86]

This community isn't happy of it can't start a dumpster fire every Friday night for..... Reasons. I love this franchise but the forum community is sometimes worse than the side effects listed on TV ads for ED pills. May cause diarrhea or death...

[Wintersdark]

People are complaining?

Aside from the (obviously not what's going to stay) crazy Clan Max Laser Range Nerf, the list of changes is freaking awesome.

Dissipation increases, Lights and mediums actually functioning as forward scouts in ways that heavies and assaults can not, clan heat capacity decreases (higher DPS, lower burst), ECM not being a hard counter to lock-on weaponry, which will allow said lock on weaponry to be reasonably balanced moving forward....

There's a lot of awesome stuff in there.

[CaptainScumBa11s]

the 40% range nerf might not be what people think it is. If its only maximum range and the base ranges stay the same it just means clan lasers lose damage quicker but have better base range.


Its a good way to make them NOT IS lasers. They still have all the other reasons they are better than IS lasers and we can start removing quirks.

Edited by TheKillerWolf, 13 October 2015 - 07:08 PM.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Wintersdark, on 13 October 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

People are complaining?

Aside from the (obviously not what's going to stay) crazy Clan Max Laser Range Nerf, the list of changes is freaking awesome.

Dissipation increases, Lights and mediums actually functioning as forward scouts in ways that heavies and assaults can not, clan heat capacity decreases (higher DPS, lower burst), ECM not being a hard counter to lock-on weaponry, which will allow said lock on weaponry to be reasonably balanced moving forward....

There's a lot of awesome stuff in there.

Yup. And as I noted, a lot of it is pretty obvious a round about way to improve TTK by reducing the efficacy of group focused fire, especially at range.

TheKillerWolf, on 13 October 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

the 40% range nerf might not be what people think it is. If its only maximum range and the base ranges stay the same it just means clan lasers lose damage quicker but have better base range.

yup. Only way to know I guess will be...to play the PTS!

And this stuff has me excited enough to do so!

[Agent 0 Fortune]

PTS is a joke, the population cannot support it, and the results are inconclusive. PGI needs to nut-up and balance production instead of PTS and Squirrel server.
Yes there will be fallout, yes additional changes will be required, but it won't be any worse than what we have.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 13 October 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

PTS is a joke, the population cannot support it, and the results are inconclusive. PGI needs to nut-up and balance production instead of PTS and Squirrel server.
Yes there will be fallout, yes additional changes will be required, but it won't be any worse than what we have.

or IDK, you could be part of the solution, instead of the problem. But pretty sure that ship has sailed?

[InRev]

Illya Arkhipova, on 13 October 2015 - 06:43 PM, said:

• Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range.

This little bit is just too clunky, convoluted and unintuitive, tbh. Hidden rules are bad and the fact that there is so much argument about what it actually means shows that it should probably be scrapped for something more natural.

Other than that, I am cautiously optimistic about the rest of the changes. ECM not being a complete hard counter to LRMs (I think?) anymore is nice. Probably won't make them good enough even still, but it's a step.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

InRev, on 13 October 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

This little bit is just too clunky, convoluted and unintuitive, tbh. Hidden rules are bad and the fact that there is so much argument about what it actually means shows that it should probably be scrapped for something more natural.

Other than that, I am cautiously optimistic about the rest of the changes. ECM not being a complete hard counter to LRMs (I think?) anymore is nice. Probably won't make them good enough even still, but it's a step.

it might be. But at the same time, lots of folks, including comps, don't hit R when they here "focus the wolverine".... now they have to take that additional second to target, and that might mean something for average TTK.

Or it may prove clunky, as you say. Hence we test it first. As I said, better to try this than the utterly assinine calls to have papercut weapons, or double the bloody armor again.

I would rather test it, and confirm it wont work, than poopoo the most ambitious thinking I have seen from PGI to date. I mean really,....... compared to what they did with quirks and such, this is at least interesting.

[Troutmonkey]

New PTS changes look awesome!

The only one I don't like is the cursor not turning red for lasers on unlocked targets. That's critical UI feedback and shouldn't be used for balancing.
I'm not so keen on the "lasers do less damage outside of max if not locked", as that will effect my peaking lights. At the same time, I'm willing to give that a chance and see how it works out.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Troutmonkey, on 13 October 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

New PTS changes look awesome!

The only one I don't like is the cursor not turning red for lasers on unlocked targets. That's critical UI feedback and shouldn't be used for balancing.
I'm not so keen on the "lasers do less damage outside of max if not locked", as that will effect my peaking lights. At the same time, I'm willing to give that a chance and see how it works out.

I get what you are saying, but I also get where it messes with long range focus fire....because, again, now you gonna need to lock it to be sure you are hurting it. Good players do that anyhow.... if they have time. Now with the different sensor ranges and speeds..... that info is a little different, and n can't just hide behind a hill 1000 meters away and blaze at targets of opportunity like you can now. You'll be doing less damage and NOT knowing if you are doing damage, menaing people will be more likely to stick to existing locks in their computers at that range.

Like all the ideas...who knows how well it will work, but I am curious to see.

And ANYTHING that can improve the alpha warrior/TTK issue without ruining the nature and individuality of weapons further like most Forum Ideas do.... I'm for testing, at least.

Troutmonkey, on 13 October 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

New PTS changes look awesome!

The only one I don't like is the cursor not turning red for lasers on unlocked targets. That's critical UI feedback and shouldn't be used for balancing.
I'm not so keen on the "lasers do less damage outside of max if not locked", as that will effect my peaking lights. At the same time, I'm willing to give that a chance and see how it works out.

I get what you are saying, but I also get where it messes with long range focus fire....because, again, now you gonna need to lock it to be sure you are hurting it. Good players do that anyhow.... if they have time. Now with the different sensor ranges and speeds..... that info is a little different, and n can't just hide behind a hill 1000 meters away and blaze at targets of opportunity like you can now. You'll be doing less damage and NOT knowing if you are doing damage, menaing people will be more likely to stick to existing locks in their computers at that range.

Like all the ideas...who knows how well it will work, but I am curious to see.

And ANYTHING that can improve the alpha warrior/TTK issue without ruining the nature and individuality of weapons further like most Forum Ideas do.... I'm for testing, at least.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Illya Arkhipova, on 13 October 2015 - 07:12 PM, said:

or IDK, you could be part of the solution, instead of the problem. But pretty sure that ship has sailed?

The problem is, there is no ship, there is a plank, and fat-assed Rose wont let anyone on it.

Last PTS, I installed the client for the first time. I tried on 4 different occasions throughout the weekend to join a match and provide data. I failed to join a game the entire time, and eventually farted around the training grounds.

the point is, the PTS has hardly any participation, and even those that want to participate aren't able. The only realistic alternative is to increment them into the live servers.

[InRev]

Troutmonkey, on 13 October 2015 - 07:19 PM, said:

I'm not so keen on the "lasers do less damage outside of max if not locked", as that will effect my peaking lights.

That's my main concern too. I play mediums almost exclusively and, most of the time, I take very quick shots from cover before scooting to safety so that I don't get instablapped. Waiting for lock-on while exposed just so that my weapons do the damage that they're otherwise "supposed" to do doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I know it's supposed to discourage hill-humping, but I fear that it will disproportionately affect the weaker weight-classes (mediums and lights) because they already don't trade very well and need to minimize exposure times.

Regardless, I'll be testing things out. Hopefully the queue times will be under 30 minutes this time around heh.

[Wintersdark]

TheKillerWolf, on 13 October 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

the 40% range nerf might not be what people think it is. If its only maximum range and the base ranges stay the same it just means clan lasers lose damage quicker but have better base range.


Its a good way to make them NOT IS lasers. They still have all the other reasons they are better than IS lasers and we can start removing quirks.

I like differentiation, but still find the notion that Clan ER Large Lasers will have a shorter Max range than IS (Not-ER) Large Lasers bizarre.

I'm not up in arms about it. I LIKE that the small and small pulse lasers will have much shorter max ranges. They'll be very short, but as it stands now the clan little lasers are extremely good, and it forces a lot of arms-racing with IS light weapon quirks.

But, yeah. I'll see what the actual numbers are (as the writeup is quite unclear) and how it works out, but while I like the concept I think the proposed cut is problematic not because of balance but instead because of "Huh, what?". ER versions of a weapon shouldn't have shorter range is all.

[Wintersdark]

InRev, on 13 October 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

That's my main concern too. I play mediums almost exclusively and, most of the time, I take very quick shots from cover before scooting to safety so that I don't get instablapped. Waiting for lock-on while exposed just so that my weapons do the damage that they're otherwise "supposed" to do doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

keep in mind, it depends how that formula is actually applied.

If, as is suggested, it only applies from 60-100% of the band from optimal to max range, it just means the already reduced damage will be even less. That's really much less of an issue: if you're within the optimal range of your weapon, it'll do the list damage no matter what.

It is... Unintuitive, though, which is a strike against it no matter what.

Quote

I know it's supposed to discourage hill-humping, but I fear that it will disproportionately affect the weaker weight-classes (mediums and lights) because they already don't trade very well and need to minimize exposure times.

Regardless, I'll be testing things out. Hopefully the queue times will be under 30 minutes this time around heh.

Not disproportionately. Big laser vomit builds are hurt equally, and arguably more so as they're relying on heavy burns from long range. Up close, those laser vomit builds' heat hurts them a lot, and they lack the speed of the lighter classes to reposition.

What this really means is lights and mediums will need to be a striker, not a peekaboo mech. Dart in, strike, get away.

Overall, I'm pretty happy with lasers being severely nerfed past their listed optimal range. I think that's a good road to go down. Helps give ballistics and LRM's a better place in the game.

[Johnny Z]

Try not to panic.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 October 2015 - 08:36 PM.

[SkyHammyr]

I love these proposed changes, I think they're awesome.
I'm glad their working on base systems instead of going to bandaid quirks. This is what we asked for.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 13 October 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

The problem is, there is no ship, there is a plank, and fat-assed Rose wont let anyone on it.

Last PTS, I installed the client for the first time. I tried on 4 different occasions throughout the weekend to join a match and provide data. I failed to join a game the entire time, and eventually farted around the training grounds.

the point is, the PTS has hardly any participation, and even those that want to participate aren't able. The only realistic alternative is to increment them into the live servers.

and that is two fold.....

One is PGIs fault. They need to give more incentive. Help make the game better is simply not enough for the selfish, greedy masses who play video games. So yeah, they need a nice carrot to lure people over.

The second part was the crapstom fomented by petty little whiners on the forums who raged at what was testing. Odd that I was able to figure it out without PGI explicitly holding my hands, but they couldn't. Yeah, PGI should have done better prefacing it, but look at how people are pissing themselves even now that PGI has done just that. People read into what they want, and then make a huge stink that keeps even more people from testing.

Self fulfilling prophecy, much?

InRev, on 13 October 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

That's my main concern too. I play mediums almost exclusively and, most of the time, I take very quick shots from cover before scooting to safety so that I don't get instablapped. Waiting for lock-on while exposed just so that my weapons do the damage that they're otherwise "supposed" to do doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

I know it's supposed to discourage hill-humping, but I fear that it will disproportionately affect the weaker weight-classes (mediums and lights) because they already don't trade very well and need to minimize exposure times.

Regardless, I'll be testing things out. Hopefully the queue times will be under 30 minutes this time around heh.

well, it's really meant to minimize snap fire focus fire.

Wintersdark, on 13 October 2015 - 08:16 PM, said:

I like differentiation, but still find the notion that Clan ER Large Lasers will have a shorter Max range than IS (Not-ER) Large Lasers bizarre.

I'm not up in arms about it. I LIKE that the small and small pulse lasers will have much shorter max ranges. They'll be very short, but as it stands now the clan little lasers are extremely good, and it forces a lot of arms-racing with IS light weapon quirks.

But, yeah. I'll see what the actual numbers are (as the writeup is quite unclear) and how it works out, but while I like the concept I think the proposed cut is problematic not because of balance but instead because of "Huh, what?". ER versions of a weapon shouldn't have shorter range is all.

the question is.... if they nerf the ranges (and honestly make them more Clan like, according to Randall Bills) will they likewise shorten the duration. Because I freely admit, shorter range with the same duration on Clan ERLL will be their deathknell.