72 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 04:12 AM, said:

The nerf to ECM is too severe imo. It will quite literally be better and more useful to bring a BAP/CAP than ECM, because all ECM will do is provide a small layer of protection against two completely crap weapon systems - if this change goes through they should remove ECM hardpoints and allow any mech to bring it. Most wont.

For higher end play, ECMs only valuable function is dorito denial for spotting and target info purposes. Its incredibly valuable, so people bring it, but take the dorito denial away and its a non item.

edit: I dont play lights really, im an assault/heavy jock at heart so im looking at this from that perspective.

Yeah, I spend most of my time in Assaults and Mediums (well, pretty much all time time). If ECM hardpoints where gone, I wouldn't often bother bringing it at all.

I do think the dorito denial removal is a very good thing, but I think the range should be left at 180m, not reduced. Allow it to remain a bubble of lock on reduction.

Remember, while LRM's are total crap now, they'll be a lot more powerful when you cannot prevent people from getting target locks. Not so much at the very highest end of play, but you'll see them be decent weapons in a much wider band than they are now.

As things stand, T3 sees a great deal of LRM use. There will be more after this change. With lots of LRM's about, even if all ECM does is (greatly) increase lock acquisition time, it'll be a very useful tool for the large majority of players.

[Wintersdark]

I'll admit, I'm biased. I'd FAR FAR rather see ECM over-nerfed and generally pretty useless than what it is now, because ECM as it stands is grossly overpowered (see: making the Hellbringer the best Clan heavy, just because of a 1.5t chunk of kit) and makes balancing weapons like SSRM's and LRM's impossible. The ONLY way to have balanced lock on weaponry is without hard counters like ECM.

I sincerely think the game would be better off without ECM at all, than with the ECM we currently have. It is much too powerful for a 1.5t (or 1t) piece of equipment.

[Paigan]

Didn't read the thread.
Just here to say that I sense a general decline in people's ability to formulate short, meaningful thread titles.

[Rushin Roulette]

Just think of it this way... the Stalker 4N will no longer be Meta due to the laser nerf... Instead you will get the Stalker 5S as it can equip dual AMS to help cover against LRMs.
Maybe people will actually start installing AMS in their mechs or BAP to help with the targeting range.... or even *gasp*... the end of the world has arrived... Players will start using the R button regularily?

[STEF_]

Well, reading the notes, I'm pretty pleased about the changes, tbh.

It will be interesting to try.

[Wintersdark]

Rushin Roulette, on 14 October 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

Players will start using the R button regularily?

lolno.

[Widowmaker1981]

Rushin Roulette, on 14 October 2015 - 04:47 AM, said:

Just think of it this way... the Stalker 4N will no longer be Meta due to the laser nerf... Instead you will get the Stalker 5S as it can equip dual AMS to help cover against LRMs.
Maybe people will actually start installing AMS in their mechs or BAP to help with the targeting range.... or even *gasp*... the end of the world has arrived... Players will start using the R button regularily?

BAP = yes, if these changes go live it will be mandatory equipment on most mechs (assuming it keeps its sensor range boost). Sensor range module might become a competitor to Seismic on longer ranged mechs too (no bad thing)
AMS = no. Buildings are free, and block 100% of incoming missiles.

Im very much not a fan of the ECM change overall, but thats because ECM dorito denial is the only thing making the Shadow Cat playable at all at the moment. If it shows a red dorito when it appears its literally total junk tier mech never to be used again. I think it should retain dorito denial for the carrying mech only, and then put a giganerf on the HBR-Prime LT onnipod

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 14 October 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

AMS = no. Buildings are free, and block 100% of incoming missiles.

Didnt you get the memo? Buildings and cover are Lostec for some players.

Edited by Rushin Roulette, 14 October 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

AMS = no. Buildings are free, and block 100% of incoming missiles.

Definetly applicable on Alpine map.

[Widowmaker1981]

Titannium, on 14 October 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

Definetly applicable on Alpine map.

One map, on low rotation, is not something you should be building mechs for, just saying.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 13 October 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

PTS is a joke, the population cannot support it, and the results are inconclusive. PGI needs to nut-up and balance production instead of PTS and Squirrel server.
Yes there will be fallout, yes additional changes will be required, but it won't be any worse than what we have.

They'd get better participation if they bribed us. Say 1 million cbills or 50 MC or something for 2 hours of PTS time.

[Lugh]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 14 October 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

They'd get better participation if they bribed us. Say 1 million cbills or 50 MC or something for 2 hours of PTS time.

So less than an hours work on the live servers for two hours on the PTS? Not much of a bribe.

[Tombstoner]

About time we got some polished info-warfare.......

[sycocys]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 14 October 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:

They'd get better participation if they bribed us. Say 1 million cbills or 50 MC or something for 2 hours of PTS time.

Want the game to be better balanced and more interesting than click on the red dorito to vomit all your lasers?

Then join the test and help make the game better, the reward for it is that you'll get a far better game to play on the live servers.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

Nope, just targeting. Lasers do full damage then pretty much all the time (relative to what they'd normally do), unless you're at extreme range and there's nobody closer to target.

For example, Assaults and Heavies have laser ranges extending past their sensor range by a fair distance. If there's nobody closer (or a light nearby relaying targeting data) then they'll do reduced damage.

LRM's are still kinda ****, but less than they were. Sure, you can train them into hills and whatnot, but on the other hand you can always target and lock people that someone has LOS to. Lock speed varies dramatically, and ECM slows it substantially, but because it's very hard to break missile locks now with ECM being useless for that, I predict you'll see more useful LRM support.

Basically, the removal of ECM as a hard counter and thus the total unreliability of LRM's makes them a far more usable weapon system.

Streaks... ECM will be very good for lights vs. streaks, as you lose missile lock when they move out of LOS, and the ECM-delay in getting new missile locks will mean without [C/B]AP you'll be basically unable to get a SSRM missile lock on a light in close proximity.

Still, ECM isn't pointless on bigger mechs; it's just not a Jesus Box anymore. It'll still slow missile locks(they said 3 seconds? ), which can make all the difference.

But now, ECM isn't something you always take when you can, and something that makes a given mech objectively better than everything else in it's class.

Seems fair, as it's only 1-1.5t.

3 seconds is the difference between getting cover and not, in anything faster than a DWF, unless one makes a habit of sitting in the open. (Plus actual flight time of the missiles)

It just means mechs can't traipse about indiscriminately anymore.

Also consider the basic sensor ranges they are looking at and it adds into things also. Though I do hope "Command Mechs" like the DDC and Cyclops get better sensor ranges. Might be another factor to make command console useful.

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 October 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

But gauss will give its 15 dmg regardless ecm/radar range/lock; due to laser nerf, it will become even more important.
And PPC, of course.

I can foresee this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...40835df1c55eb9f



edit: wait..... ECM doesn't prevent lock at long distance anymore?

I must read better the notes....

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:

Nope, i was wrong about ECM - it wont even give the carrying mech dorito denial, so Hellbringers are just inferior ebon jags with less tonnage.

Now if only the rest of the forums would do so.......

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Lugh, on 14 October 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

So less than an hours work on the live servers for two hours on the PTS? Not much of a bribe.

Fair enough. The MC rewards would pull in more people anyways.

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

Want the game to be better balanced and more interesting than click on the red dorito to vomit all your lasers?

Then join the test and help make the game better, the reward for it is that you'll get a far better game to play on the live servers.

I'm going to join in because I like being a data point as I feel i represent a typical scrub gamer fairly well. The issue is how to get a much bigger % of the population to join in.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2015 - 04:37 AM, said:

Yeah, I spend most of my time in Assaults and Mediums (well, pretty much all time time). If ECM hardpoints where gone, I wouldn't often bother bringing it at all.

I do think the dorito denial removal is a very good thing, but I think the range should be left at 180m, not reduced. Allow it to remain a bubble of lock on reduction.

Remember, while LRM's are total crap now, they'll be a lot more powerful when you cannot prevent people from getting target locks. Not so much at the very highest end of play, but you'll see them be decent weapons in a much wider band than they are now.

As things stand, T3 sees a great deal of LRM use. There will be more after this change. With lots of LRM's about, even if all ECM does is (greatly) increase lock acquisition time, it'll be a very useful tool for the large majority of players.

this is true. But with the range changes, and the varying lock on times by class, chassis, etc, LRMs are going to be both more and less effective. Sitting back at 800-1000 meters lobbing over a hill won't work in a DDC or Stalker or AWS anymore... and so I think we play and see. After all, these are placeholder numbers.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Paigan, on 14 October 2015 - 04:43 AM, said:

Didn't read the thread.
Just here to say that I sense a general decline in people's ability to formulate short, meaningful thread titles.

as opposed to making short, meaningless comments? Title means what it says...maybe your attention span or reading comprehension is the issue.

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

BAP = yes, if these changes go live it will be mandatory equipment on most mechs (assuming it keeps its sensor range boost). Sensor range module might become a competitor to Seismic on longer ranged mechs too (no bad thing)
AMS = no. Buildings are free, and block 100% of incoming missiles.

Im very much not a fan of the ECM change overall, but thats because ECM dorito denial is the only thing making the Shadow Cat playable at all at the moment. If it shows a red dorito when it appears its literally total junk tier mech never to be used again. I think it should retain dorito denial for the carrying mech only, and then put a giganerf on the HBR-Prime LT onnipod

So all the other ECM overload should be kept just to keep the ShadowCrap relevant? That's a bit ....selfish, yes? Perhaps the need is to fix the Shadowcat through other agencies.

Try being a Spider or PiratesBane now.

[Wintersdark]

Illya Arkhipova, on 14 October 2015 - 07:01 AM, said:

3 seconds is the difference between getting cover and not, in anything faster than a DWF, unless one makes a habit of sitting in the open. (Plus actual flight time of the missiles)

It just means mechs can't traipse about indiscriminately anymore.

Also consider the basic sensor ranges they are looking at and it adds into things also. Though I do hope "Command Mechs" like the DDC and Cyclops get better sensor ranges. Might be another factor to make command console useful.

The saving grace though, is during that 3 second lock time the target has no warning, so if he's not already heading to cover....

What interests me with this is its a substantial buff to "my type" of LRM mech: the support Medium. Using high speed to get flanking positions to negate cover. That's an extremely effective style of play (as far as LRM's go) but has been very unreliable due to ECM. With the ECM factor removed, it becomes much more reliable.

And as you note in your later post, its definitely a balancing factor for huge LRM boating assaults. Their limited sensor range will curtail their use. This is pretty awesome, as assaults boating LOTS of tubes is a common contributor to difficult balance issues.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

One map, on low rotation, is not something you should be building mechs for, just saying.

AMS happens....when I literally have nothing better to do with tonnage/Crits