180 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

dario03, on 14 October 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Thing is this and the reduced laser damage to non targeted mechs also reduces thinking and planning.

Huh? Please explain. Some of us actually think it's quite the opposite.

[Fate 6]

cdlord, on 14 October 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

Sigh.....

It is one part of a large set of changes. Who knows how well it'll work or not in the greater scheme of things. To focus on one point without taking into account all the rest, well.... You're beyond help.

You missed the point
It's not even a matter of balance. Currently the hit marker is necessary to know we hit because of the broken game - terrain hitboxes and hit registration. Those crazy tourmalines will be amazing for sniping when the ppl shooting back never know if their shots hit you

[Alistair Winter]

Lugh, on 14 October 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

Yes thank god we aren't flying f-14s, SU-whatevers, getting target locks at 26miles and destroying targets with missiles and getting confirmations here on earth today.
That would be horrible.

I don't really know how guided missiles work. You're telling me you can fire a missile at a target 26 miles away, then lose target lock (so your missile is no longer guided by anything but the last point of contact) and lose the enemy contact on all sensors all together, to the point where you practically don't know if the target still exists, and you'll still get a target confirmation that informs you whether you hit your target, another target or a friendly target, as opposed to terrain, buildings, etc?

If this is true, I'd be interested in learning about how this technology works. Because it sounds like magic.

[Mawai]

I think the biggest issue with this is that it will make it more difficult to identify hit registration issues.

From the point of view of information warfare, I think it might be a good change. It encourages people to get a target lock in order to get better feedback on the damage done. It gives lights a scouting role in transferring the information required to get a target lock to team mates and possibly allowing the more distant team mates to get a lock even if outside their native sensor range. It also gives a much stronger reason to actually press R ... a lot of folks don't bother since the hit feedback is currently provided by the reticle and the detailed mech target display is often a secondary advantage only in identifying weakened points of attack on the target.

IF hit registration was 100% then you would not need the reticle change to confirm the hit ... you could judge based on where your laser hits the screen whether you hit or not. However, this does not yet appear to be the case in MWO. In many cases, especially against fast lights with varying ping levels you STILL need to lead your target by some amount in order to register a hit. As long as you need to lead even with hitscan weapons like lasers then you need the reticle feedback since there is a client to server to client sync issue and the ONLY way you have to compensate for this (since pings vary among players as well as mech speeds) is to have some sort of hit feedback.

So why not press R? Maybe this will be the solution? However, can you lock and ECM mech without using countermeasures? If it is still not possible to directly lock an ECM mech then they will be receiving a potentially very effective lagshield with no aiming feedback available to counter it.

Anyway, this is why the feature is on the test server ... and even if some variation of this is implemented, it can still be tweaked after the feature goes live.

[dario03]

Mystere, on 14 October 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Huh? Please explain. Some of us actually think it's quite the opposite.

I did, in that post. Right now you can target a mech, get the intel on it, engange it, start getting intel on another nearby mech or one that is being targeted by a ally. You can do this and engage the first enemy without having your damaged reduced (if at range with lasers) and get hit confirmations (which again if at range would be important since there might be a invisible wall there). So basically you can multitask to figure out the best course of action, with this system you can't without lowering your effectiveness. I don't think the game should punish multitasking just because some people don't want to press R.
For those that press R already I see negatives but not positives. What are the positives?

Edited by dario03, 14 October 2015 - 12:39 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Fate 6, on 14 October 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

You missed the point
It's not even a matter of balance. Currently the hit marker is necessary to know we hit because of the broken game - terrain hitboxes and hit registration. Those crazy tourmalines will be amazing for sniping when the ppl shooting back never know if their shots hit you

You're assuming it's accurate now.. I can shoot a PPC at a target from across alpine, hit (but do not damage because of range) and it still flashes red.... I've fired at a target, it turned red, but the paperdoll did nothing... To me, that's broke. I'd rather do away with it completely but have nothing to replace it with that isn't the damage ticker like in other MMOs and I don't think that's appropriate here... I could be wrong.

[Jabilo]

All hits need to reticle flash.

End of story.

What a stupid f**ing idea.

Edited by Jabilo, 14 October 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[BigBenn]

Someone lost their binky....

News FLASH for those of you crying over this... in the overwelming majority of occurances of real combat, be it AFV vs AFV or man vs man, the shooter does not know if they hit their target until the target blows up or stops shooting back. You dont see a "hit" against a tank at 1000m. You want and see (or fire another round). You dont see blood spatter, hear a scream, or see much happen to an enemy soldier at 400 m away when you hit... you just keep firing.

Up close in MWO you see the sparks fly and the metal melt. So relax, Francis. You still wont have to hit "R" to see if you hit.

Relax and learn to adapt and over come. This isnt the end of the world. It will add immersion to the game.

Now go find something worth while to get pissed about like the national debt.

Edited by BigBenn, 14 October 2015 - 01:00 PM.

[Lugh]

Alistair Winter, on 14 October 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

I don't really know how guided missiles work. You're telling me you can fire a missile at a target 26 miles away, then lose target lock (so your missile is no longer guided by anything but the last point of contact) and lose the enemy contact on all sensors all together, to the point where you practically don't know if the target still exists, and you'll still get a target confirmation that informs you whether you hit your target, another target or a friendly target, as opposed to terrain, buildings, etc?

If this is true, I'd be interested in learning about how this technology works. Because it sounds like magic.

Yes radar is like a kinda of magic. Maybe if you ate more carrots you could see better to shoot down enemies at those ranges.

There are layers in guided missile technology today that allow you to fire a missile after the lock is obtained and the missile itself will 'take over' to finish it out.

Learn more here:

http://www.jhuapl.ed..._Principles.pdf

and much as I hate it here:

https://en.wikipedia...issile_guidance

[Mystere]

dario03, on 14 October 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

I did, in that post. Right now you can target a mech, get the intel on it, engange it, start getting intel on another nearby mech or one that is being targeted by a ally. You can do this and engage the first enemy without having your damaged reduced (if at range with lasers) and get hit confirmations (which again if at range would be important since there might be a invisible wall there). So basically you can multitask to figure out the best course of action, with this system you can't without lowering your effectiveness. I don't think the game should punish multitasking just because some people don't want to press R.
For those that press R already I see negatives but not positives. What are the positives?

Oh, I see it now.

Having said that, I think it is only going to be a problem if you are multitasking well outside of optimal range. I usually also multitask, but within or close to optimal range anyway for maximum weapon effect.

[Lugh]

BigBenn, on 14 October 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

Someone lost their binky....

News FLASH for those of you crying over this... in the overwelming majority of occurances of real combat, be it AFV vs AFV or man vs man, the shooter does not know if they hit their target until the target blows up or stops shooting back. You dont see a "hit" against a tank at 1000m. You want and see (or fire another round). You dont see blood spatter, hear a scream, or see much happen to an enemy soldier at 400 m away when you hit... you just keep firing.

Up close in MWO you see the sparks fly and the metal melt. So relax, Francis. You still wont have to hit "R" to see if you hit.

Relax and learn to adapt and over come. This isnt the end of the world. It will add immersion to the game.

Now go find something worth while to get pissed about like the national debt.

We aren't talking about the up close stuff. That's downright easy to determine hits and misses. We are talking about the long range sniping stuff that goes on early game ...at ranges where you can't hit R to get a target lock.

[MischiefSC]

So you are upset because at long range you won't been certain your shots are effective unless you have someone spotting or getting a visual confirmation.

Okay.

I like the change, so....

For IW to work there needs to be value in the information itself. You're no longer going to get information spoon fed to you. If it's not a brawl you're going to want someone close to the target getting telemetry for you or you're going to need to fully kit your mech for collecting or at your optimal range of it's beyond 500m.

500m is the new "long range". Which is accurate for bt for most weapons. You want data beyond that you need to work the IW angle to get it.

It's a good change. Information needs value for IW to have value.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 October 2015 - 01:10 PM.

[Mystere]

Lugh, on 14 October 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

We aren't talking about the up close stuff. That's downright easy to determine hits and misses. We are talking about the long range sniping stuff that goes on early game ...at ranges where you can't hit R to get a target lock.

Real long range snipers don't snap shoot their targets and expect bull's-eye accuracy. They aim, wait, aim some more, wait some more, before finally pulling the trigger. The lock requirement will simulate that.

Edited by Mystere, 14 October 2015 - 01:11 PM.

[dario03]

Mystere, on 14 October 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

Oh, I see it now.

Having said that, I think it is only going to be a problem if you are multitasking well outside of optimal range. I usually also multitask, but within or close to optimal range anyway for maximum weapon effect.

Yeah thats true, it would be much worse if the damage reduction was at all ranges but still I only see negatives. Not a huge deal I guess but seems like with this and the other range changes they are going overboard with the (c)erll nerfs.

[Alistair Winter]

Lugh, on 14 October 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

Yes radar is like a kinda of magic. Maybe if you ate more carrots you could see better to shoot down enemies at those ranges.

There are layers in guided missile technology today that allow you to fire a missile after the lock is obtained and the missile itself will 'take over' to finish it out.

Learn more here:

http://www.jhuapl.ed..._Principles.pdf

and much as I hate it here:

https://en.wikipedia...issile_guidance

Yeah, thanks bud, I'm not going to read all that. If you want to quote the relevant parts to counter my argument, I'll look at it. If not, then I'll just move on.

At any rate, even if we assume LRMs have in-built radar and tracking systems (which begs the question of why they instantly lose locks when I'm turning away from my target, unlike modern air combat) it still doesn't explain how my targeting computer knows if I've hit an enemy when I'm shooting hitting a powered down mech that isn't showing up on any sensors, or if I'm just dragging my CERLL over the map and randomly hitting targets that are hidden from radar.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I'm not fond of reduced laser damage on unlocked targets as x kJ of heat energy is x kJ of heat energy whether the target is being scanned by a radar or not.

However, I do agree with not getting a hit marker on target that's not locked since there is no radar scanning it saying whether you hit or not or even where you hit.

Either way, "infotech" has been needed for years. I'm glad they're finally doing it, I just hope they do it right. I just hope it's enough to make the trade off of intelligence gathering equipment worth taking over guns, ammo, and heatsinks.

Edited by Lord Scarlett Johan, 14 October 2015 - 01:19 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Here's a thread-closing statement:

Your reticule will not flash because there is no way your computers know if you hit a target or not, since you're not locked onto it... Your computer does not recognize the enemy mech as a "target" so there is no reason to flash. If you have no target acquisition, then your Mech's computer systems can't distinguish between you shooting a tree or an enemy.

So, no flash means more realism, and more dependence on targeting the enemy to know of you're dealing damage. No more magic hit indicators for unlocked targets.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 14 October 2015 - 01:27 PM.

[Galenit]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 October 2015 - 01:18 PM, said:

I'm not fond of reduced laser damage on unlocked targets as x kJ of heat energy is x kJ of heat energy whether the target is being scanned by a radar or not.

From a cuttinglaser, just to explain why a not focused laser does less damage:

If you have no lock, you will do unfocused damage,
if you lock, your targetcomputer can focus the lasers on the target.

No space magic involved.

Edited by Galenit, 14 October 2015 - 01:31 PM.

[Piney II]

Prosperity Park, on 14 October 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Here's a thread-closing statement:

Your reticule will not flash because there is no way your computers know if you hit a target or not, since you're not locked onto it... Your computer does not recognize the enemy mech as a "target" so there is no reason to flash. If you have no target acquisition, then your Mech's computer systems can't distinguish between you shooting a tree or an enemy.

So, no flash means more realism, and more dependence on targeting the enemy to know of you're dealing damage. No more magic hit indicators for unlocked targets.

This.

[Wadesin]

QQ.