180 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Mystere, on 14 October 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

Then make sure you provide them with that feedback.

Whats makes you think i dont?

Because i ALSO post here on the forums means i dont give them feedback?

You are making quite an assumption, I have already made my thought known on Twitter to Russ and Paul as well as an email to support.

Thanks, but im like 9 steps ahead of you.

[Almond Brown]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:

Test server means its a change they have come up with and already coded in the game, so unless people get up in arms over it and complain like crazy, history has shown they leave it in.
This is not the type of thing people get up in arms over, meaning its very very likely to keep staying until production if they don't realize whats going on, so don't say its only A TEST SERVER.

How will pressing R work on, a mech over 500m? A mech with ECM? A mech even closer to you, you will need to wait 3-5 seconds, but then its too later. Either Rticle flash works always or it doesn't at all. there is no in between. So don't say "Press R" like its some kind of solution. It wont. I don't think people realise how empty and dull its going to feel to shoot stuff and not get a hit confirmation.

So you felt it best to Rail and Whine like a child before even trying the changes to see how they work? OK then...

And not calling a "Test Server" a "Test Server" Really? Pass that Bong over dude. You've had enough for today.

[Mystere]

DarthRevis, on 14 October 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Whats makes you think i dont?

Because i ALSO post here on the forums means i dont give them feedback?

You are making quite an assumption, I have already made my thought known on Twitter to Russ and Paul as well as an email to support.

Thanks, but im like 9 steps ahead of you.

I made no assumptions, just a statement of what must be done, and at the proper venue.

Lugh, on 14 October 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

They've been getting and ignoring that feedback for three years now... you expect it to change because they want less data being provided to players that are attempting to engage at ALL ranges just not GG Close...

Well, if they ask for feedback and subsequently "ignore" them ...

Also, see above.

Edited by Mystere, 14 October 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Lugh, on 14 October 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

But the sensor changes may make it impossible for you to hit R to get that lock because you know you are shooting people at 1.2km.......

It is a rare build that can get Locks at 1.2km anyways. So that is not a real worry. And even those rare builds who can get those 1.2km locks tend to have to carry so much EW gear, they are not even a threat at those ranges for damage purposes. What with Radar Derp being a thing now.

[Almond Brown]

Lugh, on 14 October 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

stuff

So now any shots at long range are way much more a crapshoot than they ever were before.

So were you a fan of non-pinpoint stuff and or some form of CoF? Seems like a bit of both perhaps. Win win maybe...

[Almond Brown]

DarthRevis, on 14 October 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

Whats makes you think i dont?

Because i ALSO post here on the forums means i dont give them feedback?

You are making quite an assumption, I have already made my thought known on Twitter to Russ and Paul as well as an email to support.

Thanks, but im like 9 steps ahead of you.

And if you worded those like you did the OP, they will surely be received just as well as your OP rant was...not!

[Kjudoon]

The outrage is over being forced to press R to get basic details like even whether the target was hit?

[NextGame]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

I am not normally one to care too much about changes devs make. Sure I speak my mind but i dont "rage" or get up in arms over it. I don't care about clans vs IS or balance in general, I just still try to have fun and use whatever works.

But for the first time in MWO History, I am Pi$$sed of with a PROPOSED change, because its so fundamental and game breakingly ludicrous

I am pissed. Very pissed with the little line here.

"The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked."
no longer flash
no longer flash
no longer flash


I hardly ever target enemy mechs even in the current state of the game, but even if I am FORCED to, just to get a reticle flash, I will not able to in MANY cases. Therefore there will be no reticle flash, in MANY cases

Now there will be scenarios where I will be shooting mechs in plain sight and not know whether I am doing damage?
How can they possibly think thats ok? Do PGI not realise its a server side game? How will i know I am hitting a mech? Its the same as a Bank account that doesn't let you see how much money you have in it. Its Insane.

The explosion and weapon effects are all CLIENT side and has never correlated with whether I am doing damage or not, the reticle flash is SERVER side which is the only thing that matters. Its the only way for me to know the damage I have placed has been confirmed by the server. Its not realistic but its necessary for a network based game. IF this was real life, you wouldnt need a reticle flash, IF YOU HIT YOU KNOW YOU HIT, but this is a game, and it doesn't work like that.

Next step is they will start to "pull" or retract damage that landed on non-targeted mechs as balance mechanic for matchmaker because the shot will be taken as missed, but really it just didn't register on purpose and you wont have any way of knowing. Now that you have no reticle flash, how will you know?!

I know why PGi did this. They don't want people to "feel around" for mechs without seeing them on their radar by waving a laser around. Hardly anyone does that now, and if they rarely ever do, its only lasers, but my suggestion is to increase the needed duration for reticle flash with lasers, but NOT REMOVE IT ENTIRELY. For example if greater than 60% of a burn time landed, show you reticle flash. OR if you hit with a ballistic, show flash. No one will waste ballistics to feel for mechs anyway

LOL. From all the ******** proposed changes, *this* is the one that winds you up?

[Mystere]

NextGame, on 14 October 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

LOL. From all the ******** proposed changes, *this* is the one that winds you up?

He's in Australia, where the ping to the servers in Singapore is high.

[Revis Volek]

Almond Brown, on 14 October 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

And if you worded those like you did the OP, they will surely be received just as well as your OP rant was...not!

Im not the OP of this topic...

[Burktross]

Galenit, on 14 October 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

Use a combination of teamwork, bap, cap, tag, narc and you will have the same red flashing as now.
It only punishes people that dont use r and people that have to play with peoples not using r.

I dont know when the flashwhenyouuhit were inventend in gaming, but i remember a lot of games i played where this crutch was not implemented.

It punishes the lazy, yes, but it also punishes those who rely on quick snap shots in and out of cover (lights, and I don't mean poptarting).

[Revis Volek]

Mystere, on 14 October 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

I made no assumptions, just a statement of what must be done, and at the proper venue.




Well, if they ask for feedback and subsequently "ignore" them ...

Also, see above.

I will hold on on posting in the Re balance Forums until i have played on the PTS, i have no real information to give other then my opinions at this point. So twitter was the place to go...for now.

Again, i am well aware of where to post but im glad you linked it for anyone who didn't know it was around.

[Burktross]

Doman Hugin, on 14 October 2015 - 04:25 AM, said:

Think of it as added realism, if your targeting computer doesn't know there is a mech there, hows it ment to tell you if you've hit it.

Actually... this is a good point!
How about a... gasp... COMPROMISE
You can only get a hit marker when you shoot at a dorito'd enemy.

[sycocys]

Mystere, on 14 October 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

If this change reduces such people, I will be ecstatic!

At the known side effect of sounding like an elitist dck. I totally agree, we need to be turning this game back to a live action strategy game where the players have to actually think, plan, coordinate and react.

It's gone way too far down the rabbit hole towards generic fps for far too long, and this could be the start of making MWo the actual Mechwarrior/Battletech game so many of us bought into early on. At the least it might actually give it some semblance of being more than a reskinned bargain fps with excellent art.

[WarHippy]

Dimento Graven, on 14 October 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

BUT, literally, as I sit here and type this it has just occured to me WHY there should be no flash on a 'mech you're not targeting:

The weapons themselves cannot report back on their status, once a missile, ballistic, flamer, machine gun bullet, laser or PPC is fired, there's no 'physical' mechanism that can report back to your targeting computer.

It's your targeting computer that "knows" whether there's a hit or not, not the weapon itself.

With that in mind, extremely grudgingly I must admit, it makes sense and oh how I hate that it does.

It still makes sense to have the feedback if people bother to think a little. People keep saying that it doesn't make sense to get feedback from shooting at a target that you are not targeting, but it actually does. When you press R you are selecting your primary target that you want the most info on hence the paper doll, but the mech is still tracking all of the other mechs simultaneously which is why you see multiple enemy mechs on your mini map and doritos over multiple mechs. Your mech letting you know that a hit was detected even though it was not the primary target is completely reasonable.

Personally, I think this is a bad idea and fully unneeded. It isn't a matter of needing to press R because I do all the time, but there are plenty of scenarios that might have me firing on a target I am not currently targeting. I will test it out to see how it goes, but this is one of those things you don't really need to test to know it is going to be a bad idea based on personal experience.

[dario03]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

At the known side effect of sounding like an elitist dck. I totally agree, we need to be turning this game back to a live action strategy game where the players have to actually think, plan, coordinate and react.

It's gone way too far down the rabbit hole towards generic fps for far too long, and this could be the start of making MWo the actual Mechwarrior/Battletech game so many of us bought into early on. At the least it might actually give it some semblance of being more than a reskinned bargain fps with excellent art.

Thing is this and the reduced laser damage to non targeted mechs also reduces thinking and planning. I'm not a fan of either of these changes and I use R. I actually use it a lot and its the main reason I don't like these changes. When I'm in a battle I target a mech, make note of its damage and then even if I engange that mech I might target another mech, make note, then target another mech. I don't always do this but sometimes it is the better option. It allows me to find out what is open and choose my next target with no wasted time inbetween targets, or to switch targets if I noticed that a mech is one shot from death, or make call outs to what is open so that my team can hit the open mech. Depending on the situation multitasking like that can be very effective and these changes would remove those benefits.

[Alistair Winter]

Doman Hugin, on 14 October 2015 - 04:25 AM, said:

Think of it as added realism, if your targeting computer doesn't know there is a mech there, hows it ment to tell you if you've hit it.

Exactly this.

Right now, you can shoot a powered down mech 2 kilometers away, even if it's hidden by trees and smoke, and the targeting computer will tell you if you hit it. Or you can shoot LRMs behind a hill almost a kilometer away, with no line of sight, no friendly mechs spotting at the moment of impact, and yet your targeting computer still knows whether or not you hit the target.

It's dumb.

I'm glad they made this change.

[Lugh]

Almond Brown, on 14 October 2015 - 10:29 AM, said:

It is a rare build that can get Locks at 1.2km anyways. So that is not a real worry. And even those rare builds who can get those 1.2km locks tend to have to carry so much EW gear, they are not even a threat at those ranges for damage purposes. What with Radar Derp being a thing now.

There is no build that gets locks at those ranges, however, there are SOME who take pride in putting a couple of ER PPCs shots on target at that range.

Now you will never ever know if you hit at that range ever again(nor will you be able to give any sort of HSR feedback at that range again either). That's just stupid.

[Deathlike]

I agree with the OP in principle, but the way it is conveyed is... meh. I'll just express my opinion quickly in 3 parts.


1) Hiding hitreg doesn't improve PGI's awful netcode

I get there's a realism and a balance component to this. I surely do. I think the dependency on the reticule confirmation is a bad thing ultimately, but considering the netcode used in the game... we've had massive complaints about SRMs (yes, ECM will delay targeting, unless countered) and that's not even factoring in missed shots against even obviously easy targets like a Direwolf.

This and environmental hitboxes will become more problematic.

Even back when PPCs+Gauss were the meta, hitreg was still a mentioned issue... even when it was ~3 projectiles being fired at the same time... let alone the 10+ SRM missiles fired upon a target.

Hiding hitreg issues only serves to frustrate people more.


2) ERLL is not a good choice (for both Clan and IS)

As your hitreg gets worse (especially when you have to lead your shots a little when you have a high ping), the inability to target stuff at long range (especailly when the target has ECM coverage), it makes you wonder if your shots connect. Mind you, it's not impossible to make the shots, and surely not everyone's accuracy is going to be great.. but it's already disconcerting when your visual damage indicators (hits on the target) don't match the paperdoll (and vice versa).

ERLL currently is generally limited due to its duration. As your aim becomes less accurate (or the hitreg becomes worse), the lowered damage per tick is not as effective. While the numbers can be tweaked... these niche weapons becomes less useful for their intended purpose as most matches trade over mid-range and not as much @ long range.

If you thought CERLL was already a niche (to come with the Clan max range nerfs), you're going to have a friend in the IS ERLL (.25s longer than the LL counterpart).

Neither weapon are actually OP in current play, and they aren't going to be as effective (especially with the damage reduction w/o a target lock - TAG seems to be a goto addon-requirement though, but we'll see).


3) The new player - more "hidden" mechanics that have to be explained...

It's going to be a requirement in the Tutorial to explain this... much as I'm hoping newbies actually bother using "R", but its lack of obviousness to the player becomes detrimental in terms of a learning curve (kinda like ECM, since that's not even mentioned).

It's bad enough ECM is getting an indirect buff vs lasers, but this will indirectly confuse newbies as they need to reach optimal range to be effective... while their opponents in a Hellbringer or some such ECM carrier will have "additional armor vs lasers" when trying to fire at them from longer ranges (the Hellbringer is already an exceptional long range sniper). We've already had complaints for people wanting ECM to be factored into the MM... but that shouldn't be the case IF AND ONLY IF ECM was balanced (which, I don't think this change is going to productive discussionwise).

As long as the reticule doesn't "light up" when a target takes 3 seconds to get their Doritos... it can only confuse newbies (should I shoot if the reticule doesn't light up?)


TL;DR

There's no shortage of potential problems with the system... but as long as the hitreg code is the greatest problem (in conjunction with poor environmental hitboxes), it's going to change frustration with the netcode at least an order of magnitude because it becomes difficult to trust what you see is what you're hitting. Realistic or not, the problem is not addressing the hitreg code and as long as you don't trust the hitreg code, the likelihood that hitreg raging will occur will increase. None of this is going to be healthy for the game.

[Lugh]

Alistair Winter, on 14 October 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

Exactly this.

Right now, you can shoot a powered down mech 2 kilometers away, even if it's hidden by trees and smoke, and the targeting computer will tell you if you hit it. Or you can shoot LRMs behind a hill almost a kilometer away, with no line of sight, no friendly mechs spotting at the moment of impact, and yet your targeting computer still knows whether or not you hit the target.

It's dumb.

I'm glad they made this change.

Yes thank god we aren't flying f-14s, SU-whatevers, getting target locks at 26miles and destroying targets with missiles and getting confirmations here on earth today.

That would be horrible.