180 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

Also note that given the other changes - sensor ranges (likely some meta gearing changes with that alone) and max range changes - Just how often are you going to be fighting mechs that you can't target?

ECM isn't going to block targeting anymore.

So that pretty much leaves long range ER LL ravens/ Cicadas as most of the rest of the ecm mechs tend to do their work at mid to short range. Hellbringer might be the exception to the rule with the guass option, but we still have plenty of time to address some changes to that weapon and mech as well.

Overall the point is - how often are you NOT targeting your opponent, and with the changes how often will you not be targeting your opponent that this would make much if any difference? After reading through the proposed changes again I really don't think this will end up being an issue at all once you figure everything in together.

[Jman5]

I'll give it a fair shake, but I really liked the target reticule feedback mechanic. It helps me tell when I'm hitting a target and when I'm smashing an invisible wall or unrendered structure. Forcing target aquisition will also hurt people playing on foreign servers. I keep oceanic server checked to help the population problem there, but I get huge targeting delays over there.

[Rhaythe]

If you need your reticle to flash just to tell you you hit something, don't EVER play Insurgency. Just... don't.

[Mister Blastman]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

I know why PGi did this. They don't want people to "feel around" for mechs without seeing them on their radar by waving a laser around. Hardly anyone does that now, and if they rarely ever do, its only lasers, but my suggestion is to increase the needed duration for reticle flash with lasers, but NOT REMOVE IT ENTIRELY. For example if greater than 60% of a burn time landed, show you reticle flash. OR if you hit with a ballistic, show flash. No one will waste ballistics to feel for mechs anyway

When you put it that way... I actually like the reticle change! It will force folks to get a lot closer to see what they are hitting.

LOTS of people do it. You are mistaken.

[QuulDrah]

[anecdotal-time]
there was a dev on the game forums who proposed an upcoming change, pretty proud of his idea. the game was Kerbal Space Program, the idea was <something-awful-i'm-not-going-to-repeat>... the resulting outrage in the forum was huge, but civil.
the interesting thing that happened?
the devs got together as a team, discussed long and hard about all that was brought up against the proposal...
and changed their plan!
the community was happy, the direction the change took was warmly welcomed, and the devs rose high in our regard..
[/anecdotal-time]

i am really interested on how that translates here... civility in this thread needs to improve a little, me thinks

Edited by QuulDrah, 14 October 2015 - 07:27 AM.

[SkyHammyr]

Civility my keister!
STFU and press R!

[l33tworks]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

Also note that given the other changes - sensor ranges (likely some meta gearing changes with that alone) and max range changes - Just how often are you going to be fighting mechs that you can't target?

ECM isn't going to block targeting anymore.

So that pretty much leaves long range ER LL ravens/ Cicadas as most of the rest of the ecm mechs tend to do their work at mid to short range. Hellbringer might be the exception to the rule with the guass option, but we still have plenty of time to address some changes to that weapon and mech as well.

Overall the point is - how often are you NOT targeting your opponent, and with the changes how often will you not be targeting your opponent that this would make much if any difference? After reading through the proposed changes again I really don't think this will end up being an issue at all once you figure everything in together.

Very Often. Lets say you play an assault, comes with 500m sensor range and 3-5 second acquisition time. That is way less than the amount of time even an assault mech spends out of cover, so you can imagine faster mechs are going to be moving in and out all the time. Resetting the time it takes for your mech to detect them each time. Technically they can stay completely invisible to your radar permanently as long as they keep popping in and out of cover, and thats exactly what people do now anyway. These proposes changes will just encourage peek a boo playstyle even more. So You will not be targeting an opponent almost for probably 90% of the trade offs you have. And you will not know whether you even hit them when they pop out of cover and back as you shoot them.

As for ECM, the way I understood it, ECM will not block targetting "on a 'Mech within ECM radius." Which means you will be able to target them if you only within 200m, it will still permanently block targeting above that as now, which means you will never get hit confirmation on them above that bubble of 200m.

[sycocys]

Jman5, on 14 October 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I'll give it a fair shake, but I really liked the target reticule feedback mechanic. It helps me tell when I'm hitting a target and when I'm smashing an invisible wall or unrendered structure. Forcing target aquisition will also hurt people playing on foreign servers. I keep oceanic server checked to help the population problem there, but I get huge targeting delays over there.

We don't know exactly how its set up, but its probably not out of the realms to have them at the least switch the damage reticule to show when you have someone actively targeted if that's now how it is.

A lot of it will also depend on how they set up the acquisition/lock rates as well.

Will actually be quite interesting to test.

[Garandos]

Lootee, on 14 October 2015 - 05:43 AM, said:

Lol. This rocks.

I hope this change goes live. If nothing else just to say to the idiots that thought ECM is fine to 'just dumb fire your lasers and cannons'.

Isn't it supposed to lower the damage you deal when you don't have a target lock too? That is so awesomesauce.

Xept it does NOT state YOU need to have a target lock

Statement ist:

Target needs to be locked.

To me that reads like:

Somebody from your team needs to have a lock.

Which even makes sense from a lore point of view
the Ingame HUd is the Neurohelmet HUD, and, i would assume, the neurohelmet HUD could only show information (like hit confirmed) if sensor system are actively scanning a target, while it wouldnt matter if it would be yours or someone elses sensors, as long as you are all sharing the Data.

[l33tworks]

Jman5, on 14 October 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

I'll give it a fair shake, but I really liked the target reticule feedback mechanic. It helps me tell when I'm hitting a target and when I'm smashing an invisible wall or unrendered structure. Forcing target aquisition will also hurt people playing on foreign servers. I keep oceanic server checked to help the population problem there, but I get huge targeting delays over there.

Well this is the problem, People including the devs don't realise how much of a disadvantage playing with over 250 pings are.

Its not just hit detection, its Target lock on, Paper dool information, Zoom in and out, Shutdown startup sequence when overheated, missle locks, Heat vision/nigh vision on off, everything is delayed by a huge margin.
This will just be another kick in the butt for high ping players.

They really need to minus double your ping off all the acquisition times.

For example if you ping average is 250 your target acquisition and radar times should be -500ms the values. If it is 50ms it should be -100ms etc.

I was excited to see an Australian server announced, but nup, suddenly Singapore, still 270 ping, still sad.

Edited by l33tworks, 14 October 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Then stick a BAP in and a Tag. Narc if you're really that paranoid about it.

They have to do the same to you. The mechanic still exists. You just need to work harder for it.

Or do you not want to budge from what you're doing now?

[MechWarrior5152251]

If the targeting computer cannot see the target how is it going to know if you hit said target?

[GreyNovember]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

For example if you ping average is 250 your target acquisition and radar times should be -500ms the values. If it is 50ms it should be -100ms etc.

Issue. People's ping fluctuate.

Mine jumps from 380-270, to 4k depending on what time of day it is in the Philippines.

[Mystere]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

I am pissed. Very pissed with the little line here.

"The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked."
no longer flash
no longer flash
no longer flash

That is actually the change I like the most. It's like dropping a "dumb" bomb above cloud cover and not knowing whether you actually hit target.

[sycocys]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

Well this is the problem, People including the devs don't realise how much of a disadvantage playing with over 250 pings are.

Its not just hit detection, its Target lock on, Paper dool information, Zoom in and out, Shutdown startup sequence when overheated, missle locks, Heat vision/nigh vision on off, everything is delayed by a huge margin.
This will just be another kick in the butt for high ping players.

They really need to minus double your ping off all the acquisition times.

For example if you ping average is 250 your target acquisition and radar times should be -500ms the values. If it is 50ms it should be -100ms etc.

I was excited to see an Australian server announced, but nup, suddenly Singapore, still 270 ping, still sad.

Well why didn't you start out with discussing reasons why it might not work out for some people and a possible solution instead of the rants?

This is something that can be worked with.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

I am not normally one to care too much about changes devs make. Sure I speak my mind but i dont "rage" or get up in arms over it. I don't care about clans vs IS or balance in general, I just still try to have fun and use whatever works.

But for the first time in MWO History, I am Pi$$sed of with a PROPOSED change, because its so fundamental and game breakingly ludicrous

I am pissed. Very pissed with the little line here.

"The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked."
no longer flash
no longer flash
no longer flash


I hardly ever target enemy mechs even in the current state of the game, but even if I am FORCED to, just to get a reticle flash, I will not able to in MANY cases. Therefore there will be no reticle flash, in MANY cases

Now there will be scenarios where I will be shooting mechs in plain sight and not know whether I am doing damage?
How can they possibly think thats ok? Do PGI not realise its a server side game? How will i know I am hitting a mech? Its the same as a Bank account that doesn't let you see how much money you have in it. Its Insane.

The explosion and weapon effects are all CLIENT side and has never correlated with whether I am doing damage or not, the reticle flash is SERVER side which is the only thing that matters. Its the only way for me to know the damage I have placed has been confirmed by the server. Its not realistic but its necessary for a network based game. IF this was real life, you wouldnt need a reticle flash, IF YOU HIT YOU KNOW YOU HIT, but this is a game, and it doesn't work like that.

Next step is they will start to "pull" or retract damage that landed on non-targeted mechs as balance mechanic for matchmaker because the shot will be taken as missed, but really it just didn't register on purpose and you wont have any way of knowing. Now that you have no reticle flash, how will you know?!

I know why PGi did this. They don't want people to "feel around" for mechs without seeing them on their radar by waving a laser around. Hardly anyone does that now, and if they rarely ever do, its only lasers, but my suggestion is to increase the needed duration for reticle flash with lasers, but NOT REMOVE IT ENTIRELY. For example if greater than 60% of a burn time landed, show you reticle flash. OR if you hit with a ballistic, show flash. No one will waste ballistics to feel for mechs anyway

It's also one of many pretty minor steps to reduce the perceived efficacy of snapped focus fire. Even if the damage is applied, the uncertainty combined with other sensor changes will cause on average (of course our comp masters wont hardly notice...the good ones close and kill too fast to matter) hesitation, and more uncertainty, which is a defensive advantage.

Combine it with reduced damage for non targeted mechs, and it will impact TTK from group fired alphas. At range. So it will also possibly reduce hillhumping and long range sniping elements.

It's a test server. To test an idea. So test it, HONESTLY for a few games, then give feedback.

[pbiggz]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

I am not normally one to care too much about changes devs make. Sure I speak my mind but i dont "rage" or get up in arms over it. I don't care about clans vs IS or balance in general, I just still try to have fun and use whatever works.

But for the first time in MWO History, I am Pi$$sed of with a PROPOSED change, because its so fundamental and game breakingly ludicrous

I am pissed. Very pissed with the little line here.

"The targeting reticle will no longer flash when a hit is detected on a ‘Mech that is not target-locked."
no longer flash
no longer flash
no longer flash


I hardly ever target enemy mechs even in the current state of the game, but even if I am FORCED to, just to get a reticle flash, I will not able to in MANY cases. Therefore there will be no reticle flash, in MANY cases

Now there will be scenarios where I will be shooting mechs in plain sight and not know whether I am doing damage?
How can they possibly think thats ok? Do PGI not realise its a server side game? How will i know I am hitting a mech? Its the same as a Bank account that doesn't let you see how much money you have in it. Its Insane.

The explosion and weapon effects are all CLIENT side and has never correlated with whether I am doing damage or not, the reticle flash is SERVER side which is the only thing that matters. Its the only way for me to know the damage I have placed has been confirmed by the server. Its not realistic but its necessary for a network based game. IF this was real life, you wouldnt need a reticle flash, IF YOU HIT YOU KNOW YOU HIT, but this is a game, and it doesn't work like that.

Next step is they will start to "pull" or retract damage that landed on non-targeted mechs as balance mechanic for matchmaker because the shot will be taken as missed, but really it just didn't register on purpose and you wont have any way of knowing. Now that you have no reticle flash, how will you know?!

I know why PGi did this. They don't want people to "feel around" for mechs without seeing them on their radar by waving a laser around. Hardly anyone does that now, and if they rarely ever do, its only lasers, but my suggestion is to increase the needed duration for reticle flash with lasers, but NOT REMOVE IT ENTIRELY. For example if greater than 60% of a burn time landed, show you reticle flash. OR if you hit with a ballistic, show flash. No one will waste ballistics to feel for mechs anyway

I have advice for you OP.

[Mystere]

Karl Streiger, on 14 October 2015 - 04:00 AM, said:

cause thinking "men" is an extinct race

And that's because:

Edited by Mystere, 14 October 2015 - 07:49 AM.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

l33tworks, on 14 October 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:

I am pissed. Very pissed with the little line here.

Sounds like "Eyeball Mk1" doesn't work anymore...

I freaking LOVE the change. No more spray and pray, just hunting for that reticle flash....If you're good enough to see me...and be away of your ranges....and good enough to lead the target, then by all means snipe the crap out of me.

But now you better know what you're doing instead of just hunting for that little flash.

LOL. I love it.

GreyNovember, on 14 October 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

Or do you not want to budge from what you're doing now?

This is probably it

[Mystere]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

I'm either/or on this - will be a pain for new players but at the same time it will actually force players to target things if they want to see where/if they are doing damage.

You are completely right though, without targeting there's no way for you computer to know it hit a mech or hit a building or hit a rock. In that regard I'm 100% behind something like this, but for noobs and players that can't think maybe have it do some sort of flash for T5 players, so if you are competent and want lazy CoD mode you have to drop down out of the competition.

If this change reduces such people, I will be ecstatic!