148 replies to this topic

[Vellron2005]

Paul Inouye, on 14 October 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Hey folks, here's a clarification post (with pictures!) for the laser changes on PTS build 2 for 'Mech Rebalance.

There are 2 fundamental changes being made here:

1) Clan laser MAXIMUM distances are being shortened globally. The LongRange value is not changing from what it is now. (It WILL be affected by change 2 below however).

Here's how Clan lasers are being affected...



2) A global change to lasers based on target lock.

If the target 'Mech is not locked, your 'Mech's targeting system is going to focus your lasers at 60% of it's normal LongRange. Damage falloff happens from this point on. If you DO target your enemy 'Mech, your targeting system now knows the distance at which to focus the lasers to do maximum damage. This is when your lasers go back to normal max damage at LongRange. Targeting or Not Targeting does not affect MaxRange distances.

Here is how targeting affects all lasers...



These two system combined are meant to futher enhance the importance of InfoTech and Clan laser max range imbalance.

Ok, so now I sort of get it..

My sugestion for laser ranges is this: Don't nerf it by 40%, that's waaay to much... 20%-25% would be much more appropriate.

A question still bothers me though... in terms of terminology...

About the damage nerf to non locked targets... what does this mean exactly? A locked target is a target that I have targeted by pressing "R", or a target that the "missle lock" circle has locked on, and I can LRM/SSRM it now?

Please clarify.

It would make some sence if you had to press "R" for your lasers to do full damage, and after you get target info even, but NOT after you lock it for missles, because those locks are hard enough to get as it is, and difficult to maintain for LRM's.. Doing that for the common laser would kill that weapon system.. and increase Radar Deprivation module sales..

[Karl Streiger]

Vellron2005, on 15 October 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

My sugestion for laser ranges is this: Don't nerf it by 40%, that's waaay to much... 20%-25% would be much more appropriate.

20-25% wont change a bit.

with this change - considering tics (dmg per x milisecond)
0-640m ISERLAS = CERLAS
640-1000m CERLAS > ISERLAS
1000-1350m ISERLAS > CERLAS

and this is only for the tic - if you are able to hit with the "full beam" the Clan ER Lager Laser is superior up to 1050m.
Maybe there is a heat tweak necessary - (increase for the IS ER LAS)

[POWR]

Tennex, on 14 October 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

If you got to make such a complicated chart to explain it then there is a problem.

That's not very complicated... It shows a clear before-after picture. It's a simple range reduction when not targeted, that's easy to understand. Perhaps it's the fact that it's 60% and not 50% that's making it hard to understand because 60% is not an easy to calculate number.

Tennex, on 14 October 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

For the 40% Clan ERLaser nerf:
Why not just nerf the clan ERLaser optimal range by say 10% or something
I dont see very much this complicated system accomplishes, that simply dialing down the range will not accomplish.
Or if you HAVE to make this change, apply it globally to all lasers innersphere too.

Because 10% would have no impact at all. The problem is the zoning power of clan ER lasers. This reduces that while still giving them the advantage.

Tennex, on 14 October 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

For the 60% range all laser nerf unless locked:
Why even have that in the game? It doesn't add very much, and makes things complicated. Its a terrible idea.

This is sort of the convergence thing you've all been wanting it slows down the TTK, which is desirable.

Edited by POWR, 15 October 2015 - 12:28 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Vellron2005, on 15 October 2015 - 12:18 AM, said:

Ok, so now I sort of get it..

My sugestion for laser ranges is this: Don't nerf it by 40%, that's waaay to much... 20%-25% would be much more appropriate.

A question still bothers me though... in terms of terminology...

About the damage nerf to non locked targets... what does this mean exactly? A locked target is a target that I have targeted by pressing "R", or a target that the "missle lock" circle has locked on, and I can LRM/SSRM it now?

Please clarify.

It would make some sence if you had to press "R" for your lasers to do full damage, and after you get target info even, but NOT after you lock it for missles, because those locks are hard enough to get as it is, and difficult to maintain for LRM's.. Doing that for the common laser would kill that weapon system.. and increase Radar Deprivation module sales..

Press R for full damage, that's it, not missile lock. You can't even get a missile lock if you don't have missiles.

It's silly, but it's not really a problem and you can adapt to it very quickly. After a few PTS matches I didn't even notice anymore.

As to the range, the 40% sounds like a lot, but it's really not. IS loses roughly 10-15% to all it's laser ranges (including optimal ranges) due to the removal of the ever-present +energy range quirks, and the 40% cut is ACTUALLY 20% of the overall range, because it's 40% of 50% of the weapons total range.


So, Clan lasers lose 20% overall, IS loses 10% overall BUT also loses Optimal Range. Meanwhile, Clan lasers optimal ranges are still comparable with their regular IS laser equipment total maximum ranges. Clan lasers are still way, way better.

Karl Streiger, on 15 October 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

20-25% wont change a bit.

with this change - considering tics (dmg per x milisecond)
0-640m ISERLAS = CERLAS
640-1000m CERLAS > ISERLAS
1000-1350m ISERLAS > CERLAS

and this is only for the tic - if you are able to hit with the "full beam" the Clan ER Lager Laser is superior up to 1050m.
Maybe there is a heat tweak necessary - (increase for the IS ER LAS)

The IS ERLL had it's ranges reduced alongside the Clan ER lasers.

ALL Clan lasers are still strictly superior to IS lasers.

Edited by Wintersdark, 15 October 2015 - 12:27 AM.

[The Witt]

Paul Inouye, on 14 October 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Okay, so I thought when I looked at this that the maths didn't look right so I typed it up and something doesn't figure for untargeted damage at 270m.
Optimum un-targeted = 162m (5 damage)
Max Range = 540m (0 damage)

The gradient of the line connecting these two points is [Damage difference]/[Range Difference] = [5-0]/[540-162] = Gradient (damage decay)

We can use this gradient (G) to calculate the damage at 270m (D):

Gradient = [Damage difference]/[Range Difference] = [5-D]/[270-162]

D=5-[270-162]*G = 5-[270-162]*[5-0]/[540-162] = 3.57

= 3.57 Damage at 270m (untargeted)

In my opinion, losing less than 1.5 damage is not as bad as losing 2 damage (actually that's a fact not an opinion).

Quickly knocked this together at work so maybe a mistake crept in somewhere. If not it may be worth Paul doing a quick edit of his post.

edit: letter labels

Edited by The Witt, 15 October 2015 - 01:28 AM.

[Yozaa]

Wintersdark, on 15 October 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Press R for full damage, that's it, not missile lock. You can't even get a missile lock if you don't have missiles.

It's silly, but it's not really a problem and you can adapt to it very quickly. After a few PTS matches I didn't even notice anymore.

As to the range, the 40% sounds like a lot, but it's really not. IS loses roughly 10-15% to all it's laser ranges (including optimal ranges) due to the removal of the ever-present +energy range quirks, and the 40% cut is ACTUALLY 20% of the overall range, because it's 40% of 50% of the weapons total range.


So, Clan lasers lose 20% overall, IS loses 10% overall BUT also loses Optimal Range. Meanwhile, Clan lasers optimal ranges are still comparable with their regular IS laser equipment total maximum ranges. Clan lasers are still way, way better.



The IS ERLL had it's ranges reduced alongside the Clan ER lasers.

ALL Clan lasers are still strictly superior to IS lasers.

Except burn time

[S k o c h t a p e]

So, you just sold me a pack of IS mechs for $80 that almost all have entirely laser focused builds with no alternatives, and then you make IS lasers near useless. Thanks. Love that.

Try something simpler next time. Don't feed into the laser meta with real-money-only all laser mechs, and then immediately nerf them.

[Anunknownlurker]

@Skochtape25354 - this, which is in a test environment, read that again "A TEST ENVIRONMENT" (sarcasm intended) may not even make it to live so, don't panic, your Crab will still remain a most excellent laser boat for the foreseeable future.

Play PTS, try things out and give feedback based on experience not guesswork, it is input from the players, real input not reactionary, knee jerk comments, which will shape the future of MWO and the fact that PGI is running this PTS - which is SO much better than the first, see? they listen and learn - is testament to that.

Personally, I like the laser change, it gives people a selfish reason (increased damage) to do something that should be done anyway to help the rest of the team (pressing R)

Good hunting!

[The Witt]

The Witt, on 15 October 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:

Okay, so I thought when I looked at this that the maths didn't look right so I typed it up and something doesn't figure for untargeted damage at 270m.
Optimum un-targeted = 162m (5 damage)
Max Range = 540m (0 damage)

The gradient of the line connecting these two points is [Damage difference]/[Range Difference] = [5-0]/[540-162] = Gradient (damage decay)

We can use this gradient (G) to calculate the damage at 270m (D):

Gradient = [Damage difference]/[Range Difference] = [5-D]/[270-162]

D=5-[270-162]*G = 5-[270-162]*[5-0]/[540-162] = 3.57

= 3.57 Damage at 270m (untargeted)

In my opinion, losing less than 1.5 damage is not as bad as losing 2 damage (actually that's a fact not an opinion).

Quickly knocked this together at work so maybe a mistake crept in somewhere. If not it may be worth Paul doing a quick edit of his post.

edit: letter labels

Really need to get back to work, but I thought I'd have a quick look at the compound effect of the Clan MAx range with the new targeting mechanic. so at optimal ranges against untargeted mechs IS lasers do 71% damage. This seems reasonable, its a small nerf if you aren't targeting.
Clan lasers on the other hand (due to the compound effect of reduced max range) are doing 33% damage in the same situation. I'm all for Clan lasers requiring greater skill in order to get greater reward, but this seems a little heavy. by my calculations a C-ERLL will be doing 3.6 damage against an unlocked mech at optimum range, where previously it would be doing 11 damage. hmmmm...back to work

[Beijing]

So you're basically saying:
Autocannons and Gauss converge/focus on the distance of your target reticule.
Lasers suddenly don't anymore?

At first I liked the idea, that lasers need to focus their lenses on something in a specific distance. But this information is already available and used for convergence by the targeting reticule. There should be no need for target locking ® to get the distance information you already have.

If I would start as a new player right now, I wouldn't even know why I just overheated firing my 9 Medium Lasers on my Hunchback. How could a new player understand this targeting/laser system?

You're just inventing another unnecessary complex system to "fix" an issue of simple Laser Range?! (see Range, it's a simple value measured in units of distance, nothing complex)

Please re-think this idea. Or thoroughly explain why it needs to be this system.

[627]

I... kinda like the idea. The charts made it pretty clear and I don't think this is complicated at all.
If this goes live however, it should be explained ingame somehow.

But I really want to try it out (PTS is "searching" at the moment, let's see if I get a match this time). Especially bringing people to press R is a good thing. Actually I am surprised that people don't do that, always thought there's just too much ecm and radar derp on the field.
But with ECM now back in line for a 1.5ton item this should help.

And let's be honest, we had a laser vomit meta for more than a year now, time to shake this up. I'm okay with nerfing meta. Breaks up the gameplay and people start to find something new. That is always good

[Nnamleips]

So I got my first all looked on the PTS and made a few test rides on the Testing Grounds.


IS-sided:
I can, apart from the fact that I in Heavie Mech, not starting at 1000m can intrude a destination, not notice any deterioration in the LL.
A ERLL makes to 675m Optimum harm. a LL at 450m. Sensor range is the Heavie Mech 600- 700m. When Assault Mech 500-600m.


So the 6x LL Stalker can be played normally.


Clan-sided:
Have I tried times the Warhawk and the Mad Cat.
Here the optimal range, the ERLL and LPL is already suffering, which is the Sensor Range 500m, or 600m. However, the TC is also a boost sensor.
The remaining weapons like ER MED and MPL, ER PPC, Gaus, AKS, etc. are usable without restrictions.
Conclusion:

• One is forced intrude the target.
  
• Scouting is again important.
  
• The Max Range of all heavy lasers is characterized nerfed. What the fight distances Reduces considerably. That the CERLL at 1184m, or 1080m ERLL to do no more harm, is completely ok.
  
• Assault are thereby forced to stand in the middle or front.

In my opinion, the changes are good. The sand removal disadvantages can be compensated by adjusting the pitch.

Edited by Nnamleips, 15 October 2015 - 02:42 AM.

[Twinkleblade]

Thinking about it now makes me feel like a global 60% nerf sounds excessive.
I think having numbers based on laser size would be more appropriate.

Something like a 100% for small laser types sounds more resonable.
80% for medium laser types and 60% for large types.
ER weapons might need other adjustments.
If you think this makes things too complicated, remember that in the mech/weapon stat window there will be 1-2 simple lines indicating the ranges. Because the math looks complicated doesnt mean it actually is complicated. As long as there is a simple way to explain it to the player I dont mind the math behind it.

As a kinda unrelated example take any MOBA out there. Having 100 of different characters to balance with individual changes to balance.
Is it really that bad for us to implement an extra mechanic to make the game balancable? As long as the end effect is clear to the player, we shouldnt care too much about the math behind it.

[Kaor]

I don't understand this nerf absolutely. What is laser? Laser is a way to transfer the great value of energy in one point. Lock is a way to direct all our lasers to one point. So, if you want to use Lock as a part of laser weapon, you need to give bonuses for crit and\or damage for it( if 2 or more lasers firing at one time), but not to reduce there base characteristics.

[Monky]

Ecm change: should have been in since closed beta.

Max range change: should have been in since clans. Should be expanded to other clan super weapons (clan gauss in particular).

Heatsinks change: should have been in since closed beta.

Optimal range for lasers: let me stop you right there, pull this idea out right now. It's bad. I get where you're coming from for fitting c3 computers into the mix eventually, but it's bad gameplay.

Edited by Monky, 15 October 2015 - 04:15 AM.

[Illya Ghost Bear]

Paul Inouye, on 14 October 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Hey folks, here's a clarification post (with pictures!) for the laser changes on PTS build 2 for 'Mech Rebalance.

There are 2 fundamental changes being made here:

1) Clan laser MAXIMUM distances are being shortened globally. The LongRange value is not changing from what it is now. (It WILL be affected by change 2 below however).

Here's how Clan lasers are being affected...



2) A global change to lasers based on target lock.

If the target 'Mech is not locked, your 'Mech's targeting system is going to focus your lasers at 60% of it's normal LongRange. Damage falloff happens from this point on. If you DO target your enemy 'Mech, your targeting system now knows the distance at which to focus the lasers to do maximum damage. This is when your lasers go back to normal max damage at LongRange. Targeting or Not Targeting does not affect MaxRange distances.

Here is how targeting affects all lasers...



These two system combined are meant to futher enhance the importance of InfoTech and Clan laser max range imbalance.

When you say "Locked" do you mean simply when we have selected them with "R", or once info gather is no longer at zero, will we have to wait for paperdoll before doing full damage?

[Rasc4l]

Mcgral18, on 14 October 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

Yes, it would be fine if it was a 60% reduction from the MAXimum range, but 60% reduction of Optimal is just sad and uncalled for.

162M isMLs?

You're right, the 162m ML is a bit too much. This destroys the brawling ability of light mechs using lasers.

I think 10-20 % decrease in optimal range and 50 % reduction in max range would be better.

Mcgral18, on 14 October 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

But at least the Jesus Box was brought down a peg.

\o/

[Tennex]

TWIAFU, on 15 October 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

[Unapproved non constructive post]

get in a light mech try to press R any time u need to fire at anything above 200m , while darting in and out of cover to not die. And then let me know how it goes

this isnt furious button mashing r game like starcraft

TWIAFU, on 15 October 2015 - 04:39 AM, said:

[Unapproved non constructive post]

get in a light mech try to press R any time u need to fire at anything above 200m , while darting in and out of cover to not die. And then let me know how it goes

this isnt furious button mashing r game like starcraft

[Sprouticus]

Copied from my Reddit post:

The impact of this is not balanced.

It hurts IS more than clan.
It hurts small laser more than mediums or large.


The reason is because with smaller bas ranges, you have to get in closer to do damage, and switching targets (especially if TAD is ever re-implemented or if the enemy has ECM) becomes a nightmare.

I think there are better options

1) If no target, then optimal range is the same, but max range -40% ADDITIVE. That means for clans max range = optimal range and for IS max range = optimal + 60%.


Examples:

#1
ERML vs ML-
ERML no target: 405/405
ML no target: 270/378
ERML w/ Target: 405/567
ML w/ target: 270/540

This setup still gives the clans a range advantage, especially with targets. But without targets it is much closer

Edited by Sprouticus, 15 October 2015 - 05:27 AM.

[GoodTry]

This is a great change. I like it a lot, and it makes sense. It's a good, measured solution that makes the other information warfare changes meaningful. Don't listen to the people who are just afraid of their current favorite setup being "nerfed."