285 replies to this topic

[Cranial Enigma]

So far I am having trouble trying to figure out how they coded the laser range changes. Because right now it is better to not press R and lock on, because by doing that it will lower your laser range to 60% of what it is if you are not aiming at your target. I have no clue why it is doing this since from the explanation it should only affect maximum range, but if you are locked onto an enemy and start firing at that enemy over the hill you will have lost 40% of your range by not looking at the enemy you were originally locked on. Here are some screenshots from my mist lynx since I wanted to see how it was affected. (using Clan medium pulse lasers with both modules range/cooldwon).

(Edit): Had to relook at the PTS changelog, its not specifically for maximum range, its for optimal range. So if you are a laser boat....... never press R if you are sniping.

Locked at the atlas


Locked onto the atlas looking at the jenner


Up close views on the weapon ranges

Spoiler

Edited by Cranial Enigma, 14 October 2015 - 04:35 PM.

[oldradagast]

Kraftwerkedup, on 14 October 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Youre forgetting "Infotech"

Some mechs have really really bad info tech quirks and even with no ECM, and in range, will take 3 or more seconds to target something.

Unless they got rid of those quirks?




I died a little....priceless.

Most of those "quirks" - read "nerfs" - where mechs will have delays in targeting info are not on the PTS yet. But it will be, as you suspect, yet another way to nerf mechs into the ground. I'm sure it will work out perfectly balanced... lol...

[Kraftwerkedup]

Yeah in the last PTS they had mechs with 300% to targeting time. If thats a base of 1, thats 3 seconds to target, unmodified by anything else.

I assume those are coming back, theyre just testing it at 0 right now.

Then again...assumptions and PGI...I have no idea what theyre doing, and clearly they dont either.

At least we get to throw darts at the board too now. Wish theyd actually post here, and get the fark off twitter.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 14 October 2015 - 04:28 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 October 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

RIP Black Knight, between ML range and loss of heat gen quirks, it has nothing.

Except for the fact that most Black Knights can easily carry a BAP lol.

[Gas Guzzler]

Alwrath, on 14 October 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

Except for the fact that most Black Knights can easily carry a BAP lol.

At the cost of heat sinks yeah sure.

[Doman Hugin]

Ultimatum X, on 14 October 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

I know derps love their derp weapons, but can lasers suddenly fire indirectly over buildings while the user huddles behind a rock playing with one hand (netflix and lrm bruh)?

nope, but you can fire before you get lock, just not so well now.

by the way i do have plenty of laser mostly mechs, I just prefer the challenge and diversity LRM's bring to a match.

[Dino Might]

From a "why does this make sense in pseudo-real world" perspective:

If not targetting a mech leads to the lenses not focusing correctly, then why not just set the lens focal point at infinity? It's a small opening for the laser light to exit. Why does it need to focus down to an even smaller pinpoint? Is that really the only way they do damage? If so, you'd never really hurt anything unless you got really lucky. You'd just put a bunch of tiny pinholes in mechs and wouldn't blow off limbs or destroy large portions of the mech.

The only way to get significant dispersion for reduced damage is to set a focal point very (and I mean very) close to the muzzle so that you have significant dispersion at normal weapon ranges. Who would do this? Just set it at infinity and you'll have no dispersion. Maybe you don't get optimal damage on a pinpoint, but you are still delivering the same energy to an area that's maybe less than a meter in diameter - seems good enough for government work. If we're somehow blowing limbs off with lasers, then that point of impact is probably already fairly large and not, in fact, the head of a pin, so the lens focusing issue makes no sense whatsoever.

[Leggin Ho]

All I can say is they must have had ALOT of good beer the night they thought this crap up.

Edited by Leggin Ho, 14 October 2015 - 04:38 PM.

[LordNothing]

Madcap72, on 14 October 2015 - 03:18 PM, said:

Lets have fixed focal point lasers that only do damage within a narrow range from optimum instead! Want to boat ERLL? Cool, zero damage from 0m to say 500m. Max damage from 500.01 to 600. Zero damage past 600.01.

Oh wait, real life fixed focus lasers wouldn't be fun. LOL

weapons grade lasers, like the ones used to take out missiles, have adjustable optics. so do the lasers used in cd/dvd players (though their focal range is is only a few mm as opposed to several km).

i kinda think lasers should be always adjusted to the range at crosshair. with about a quarter to half second to traverse from max range to min range. target lock and tc/cc would speed this up.

Dino Might, on 14 October 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

From a "why does this make sense in pseudo-real world" perspective:

If not targetting a mech leads to the lenses not focusing correctly, then why not just set the lens focal point at infinity? It's a small opening for the laser light to exit. Why does it need to focus down to an even smaller pinpoint? Is that really the only way they do damage? If so, you'd never really hurt anything unless you got really lucky. You'd just put a bunch of tiny pinholes in mechs and wouldn't blow off limbs or destroy large portions of the mech.

The only way to get significant dispersion for reduced damage is to set a focal point very (and I mean very) close to the muzzle so that you have significant dispersion at normal weapon ranges. Who would do this? Just set it at infinity and you'll have no dispersion. Maybe you don't get optimal damage on a pinpoint, but you are still delivering the same energy to an area that's maybe less than a meter in diameter - seems good enough for government work. If we're somehow blowing limbs off with lasers, then that point of impact is probably already fairly large and not, in fact, the head of a pin, so the lens focusing issue makes no sense whatsoever.

wouldn't work very well at close range. no adjustable optics is the way to go. get optimal damage over a wider range of ranges. also a lot of these military grade lasers have a very wide beam (you can measure the size of the aperture on the lasers in game to be about half the size of a car), you dont want that energy to be so diffused when it hits the target.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 October 2015 - 04:43 PM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Gas Guzzler, on 14 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

At the cost of heat sinks yeah sure.

More like a little engine speed if your XL, the CT and legs can carry a BAP.

[LordNothing]

Dino Might, on 14 October 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

So, what you're saying is that I will have to be even more up in people's butts to do damage? I'm cool with that...

is that an ac2? i have a bane with one of those on it. time for some locust dom pegging action!

Edited by LordNothing, 14 October 2015 - 04:46 PM.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

But IS lasers aren't OP.

at least till you get beheded by several of them with range quirks and duration quirks and get killed at a km range in cw.

[FupDup]

LordNothing, on 14 October 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

at least till you get beheded by several of them with range quirks and duration quirks and get killed at a km range in cw.

Lol CW.

Are you getting beheaded by one IS mech, or multiple of them focusing fire? Because in the latter case, you'd have a bad time no matter what weapons they used...

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

Lol CW.

Are you getting beheaded by one IS mech, or multiple of them focusing fire? Because in the latter case, you'd have a bad time no matter what weapons they used...

pretty sure it was one mech. whoever was on the other end of that beam had legendary aim. it was so impressive i wasnt even mad. i was running a gargoyle i think.

Edited by LordNothing, 14 October 2015 - 04:54 PM.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

Hans Von Lohman, on 14 October 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

However, both work to get people to use their R-key.

lmao. The day that f'ing happens is the day people stop rotating Counter Clockwise.

At least this solves TTK issues, rite?

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

Aren't you normally the one who says that PPFLD like PPCs are the devil incarnate that butcher women and children and that DoT is totally better for the meta?

They are when they are as good or better than ballistics. Like this you've got a ballistics substitute for an energy hardpoint. What this is really doing is way scaling back long range precision snap shot alpha strikes. Now you're going to see a lot more value in mixed loadouts. PPCs on your energy boat for longer ranges and trades, lasers to brawl.

Next imo is ammo explosions again. I get the rage on it before - we wanted easier and better weapons. So we got everything optimized until we saw that sucked. Now we're going back to weapons having trade offs.

I'd love for this to lead to less boating. We'll see. I'm good with the concept but am still at work and probably will be for a bit.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 October 2015 - 05:35 PM.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

They are when they are as good or better than ballistics. Like this you've got a ballistics substitute for an energy hardpoint. What this is really doing is way scaling back long range precision snap shot alpha strikes. Now you're going to see a lot more value in mixed loadouts. PPCs on your energy boat for longer ranges and trades, lasers to brawl.

Next imo is ammo explosions again. I get the rage on it before - we wanted easier and better weapons. So we got everything optimized until we saw that sucked. Now we're going back to weapons having trade offs.

I'd love for this to lead to less boating. We'll see. I'm good with the concept but am still at work and probably will be for a bit.

They are when they are as good or better than ballistics. Like this you've got a ballistics substitute for an energy hardpoint. What this is really doing is way scaling back long range precision snap shot alpha strikes. Now you're going to see a lot more value in mixed loadouts. PPCs on your energy boat for longer ranges and trades, lasers to brawl.

Next imo is ammo explosions again. I get the rage on it before - we wanted easier and better weapons. So we got everything optimized until we saw that sucked. Now we're going back to weapons having trade offs.

I'd love for this to lead to less boating. We'll see. I'm good with the concept but am still at work and probably will be for a bit.

There have actually been several "mixed build" metas before, such as PPCs + ACs and Lasers + Gauss...yes those are in fact mixed builds. They aren't the kind of bracket builds that give TT players romantic feelings in their heart and a tight sensation in their pants, but they are in fact "mixed" builds.

Frankenbuilds with like 6+ weapon groups will never be effective because they attempt to be good at everything but end up being good at nothing. This cannot be fixed without random Ghost mechanics everywhere, because even TT itself saw mechs built with a specific purpose beating out the mechs with derpy things like AC/2 + LL + SL + Flamer + SRM2 + LRM15.


The tone in which you're saying "weapons with tradeoffs" makes it sound like the "angry parent watching over your shoulder 24/7" type. As in, your "choice" is between whether you want to get punched in the stomach or kicked in the shin, making it a lose-lose situation. In other words, beating people over the head with sticks as opposed to offering them carrots.

We've already seen that play out countless times, and you were here for all of those times so you should know. When you try to play whackamole by using the "stick" method, the mole pokes his head up through a different hole. You nerf his Autocannons, he uses Gauss. You nerf his PPCs, he boats lasers. You nerf his Highlanders, he uses Victors. You nerf his Clan ERLL, he uses Clan LPL. Etc.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 05:33 PM, said:

I'd love for this to lead to less boating. We'll see. I'm good with the concept but am still at work and probably will be for a bit.

We had less boating, it was UACs and PPCs, or AC 5s and PPCs and Gauss and PPCs or AC 20 and PPCs, or AC 10s and PPCs.


We have Gauss + Lasers now.


How many incompatible weapon systems do we need to carry before it's "less boating"?

Really, a lot of us don't want to play mixed ranged bracket loadouts with multiple ammo types and firing mechanisms.


2 synergistic weapon systems is pretty reasonable imo.

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 05:43 PM, said:

There have actually been several "mixed build" metas before, such as PPCs + ACs and Lasers + Gauss...yes those are in fact mixed builds. They aren't the kind of bracket builds that give TT players romantic feelings in their heart and a tight sensation in their pants, but they are in fact "mixed" builds.

Frankenbuilds with like 6+ weapon groups will never be effective because they attempt to be good at everything but end up being good at nothing. This cannot be fixed without random Ghost mechanics everywhere, because even TT itself saw mechs built with a specific purpose beating out the mechs with derpy things like AC/2 + LL + SL + Flamer + SRM2 + LRM15.


The tone in which you're saying "weapons with tradeoffs" makes it sound like the "angry parent watching over your shoulder 24/7" type. As in, your "choice" is between whether you want to get punched in the stomach or kicked in the shin, making it a lose-lose situation. In other words, beating people over the head with sticks as opposed to offering them carrots.

We've already seen that play out countless times, and you were here for all of those times so you should know. When you try to play whackamole by using the "stick" method, the mole pokes his head up through a different hole. You nerf his Autocannons, he uses Gauss. You nerf his PPCs, he boats lasers. You nerf his Highlanders, he uses Victors. You nerf his Clan ERLL, he uses Clan LPL. Etc.

This, basically.


With current PTS I'd just drop one CERMLAS from my TBR and add an Active probe.

[InRev]

So just had an interesting scenario come up.

Nova shut down 200 meters away from me. Obviously I cannot lock on. Do Medium Lasers do full damage or no? Pretty ridiculous that this is now a viable question to ask.

[Ultimax]

InRev, on 14 October 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

So just had an interesting scenario come up.

Nova shut down 200 meters away from me. Obviously I cannot lock on. Do Medium Lasers do full damage or no? Pretty ridiculous that this is now a viable question to ask.

Lol, tactical shutdown for magic damage shield!