285 replies to this topic

[Weeny Machine]

Khobai, on 14 October 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

Paul still needs to clarify why any of this range reduction nonsense matters if we can still do 50-70 damage alphas. If convergence and pathetically low TTK isnt being addressed then this whole rebalancing is for naught.

That is the sad, sad truth. The only positive thing I see is that brawlers will get a bit better into range. That's it though. The crazy alphas will remain and that way a low TTK

[Mazzyplz]

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Paul still needs to clarify why any of this range reduction nonsense matters if we can still do 50-70 damage alphas. If convergence and pathetically low TTK isnt being addressed then this whole rebalancing is for naught.

the lack of quirks does mean my mech overheats way faster (no dissipation quirk) so that's a positive wouldn't you say?

at least now if i alpha the heat actually goes up

what? low ttk?
did you even play the PTS? the ttk is double what is on the live server;
are you sure you're not piloting the overquirked zeus?

i can see why you would think that if you were driving a zeus or a ctf 0x
that you realize you're not made of adamantium anymore

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Mazzyplz, on 15 October 2015 - 04:56 AM, said:

that you realize you're not made of adamantium anymore

titanium, geeez.

[KuroNyra]

Marmon Rzohr, on 15 October 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

Go on the PTS. Try out the nerfed Clans against the non-quirked IS. See how that goes. I pilot Clan mechs exclusively and what I see is not the Clans getting nerfed, it's Clans moving toward being balanced. I mean doesn't it tell you something that even with crazy quirks the best IS mechs barely keep up with the best Clan mechs ?

Sorry what? What I saw was Overquircked IS mech able to resist to the 3 best Omnimechs with easy and completly dominating the rest of the Omnimechs.
While the rest of the IS mech could still already hold there ground against the others Omnimechs.

Clans have excellent mech. But Inner Sphere also have them too.
So when you say Clans are OP when speaking only about the good ones. You should also say IS are OP.

[Sjorpha]

KuroNyra, on 15 October 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

Sorry what? What I saw was Overquircked IS mech able to resist to the 3 best Omnimechs with easy and completly dominating the rest of the Omnimechs.

If you're talking about what you "saw" in the PTS then no, there are no overquirked mechs in there. ALL quirks have been removed in the PTS.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Sjorpha, on 15 October 2015 - 05:08 AM, said:

If you're talking about what you "saw" in the PTS then no, there are no overquirked mechs in there. ALL quirks have been removed in the PTS.

yep. so a loottttt of overheating incoming from lasor boats.

[TexAce]

I don't think Gauss will ever be the real meta with the charge mechanic. Yes, some like it, some have no problem with it, bu still, it will probably be Tier1 meta, but never Tier 3-5 meta.

KuroNyra, on 15 October 2015 - 05:04 AM, said:

Sorry what? What I saw was Overquircked IS mech able to resist to the 3 best Omnimechs with easy and completly dominating the rest of the Omnimechs.
While the rest of the IS mech could still already hold there ground against the others Omnimechs.

Proves you have no clue what you are talking about. THERE ARE NO QUIRKS ON THE PTS. NADA, NOTHING, NIX!

[Slepnir]

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I like all the 'lore/battletech versions' comments. Call a rose a rose. It's 'I want totally OP gear compared to everyone else and I want them to gather in big groups like redshirts for me to kill and talk haughtily too, like somehow my winning was skill related and not just having OP stuff'.

Adding 'I paid a lot for this under the idea it's giving me an advantage' isn't really doing favors to your position.

The identity of the Clans was that they were, literally, sociopathic fascist slavers who wanted to conquer, subsume and destroy then enslave every other human civilization. They were monsters, almost comically so.

First the clans are technically SPARTAN greeks, the rest of your post is pretty much wrong in every way

As I play TT regularly I can tell you that NO the dark ages, jihad and 3145+ DID NOT balance the clans VS IS what it did was introduce new weapons systems that are totally unique to each side that are fundamentally more powerful as the arms race continues.

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Honestly, do you really think that introducing the original TT heat mechanic will be actually *fun* in a FPS game?

Yes, in fact I know it is. you like PGI fail to understand the core player base. this is supposed to be a thinking mans shooter, what it has turned into is a draw for a bunch of twitch arena shooter fans, and even not very many of those players at that.

MWLL made in 2009 has no mechlab, all mechs have a mix of weapons and more closely follow TT than MWO gameplay wise it is far superior in every way to MWO except for the graphics which are limited by the older engine. it was made by basically only 5 fans working on a free mod, not a full professional studio. you choose your mechs not based on hard points or high alpha damage, but on terrain conditions, and preferred play style. Additionally the maps there feel like battlefields not MWO arenas


MW4 was actually far more fun and balanced because it restricted the mechlab by sized hard points and fixed engines

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Just repeating myself here. But if this game was table top board game, then all players would be piloting Clan mechs. There wouldnt be any Inner Sphere player factions. Mechwarrior Online couldnt sell famous Inner Sphere mechs like the Marauder.

That's actually completely wrong.
Most players would play like they do now, have mechs from both sides or different accounts for each side. if PGI was so concerned about balancing weapons they would have set the game at the start of the 4th succession war and left the clans alone.

The reality is that 5 clan mechs without any nerfs are COMPLETELY EQUAL AND FAIR fighting at a 1.6 ratio like TT dictates where they face 2 lances of IS. there are also a huge number of battletech hardcore loyalist who will never play clan or vice versa IS because they are dedicated to their house/clan.

I and my unit would gladly drop into our dragons, hatamoto chi's(if they every made them) catapult K2s etc.. and fight a numerically inferior but powerful clan force simply for the honor of house kurita. better guns doesn't make the clans more survivable to damage, what it does do is force clan players to bring their A game or go home. Like it should be.

Understand when this game was sold to us founders all that lore was a promised part of the game. we were told not to name our units after real in game units because eventually we would have the ability to earn a place in those legendary units-10th lyran guard, swords of light or ghost regiments, davion guards units, etc..we were told there would be planetary assets to capture that would help our units and houses in CW, We were told it was a thinking mans shooter......we were lied to, repeatedly and we are feeling a bit cheated and defrauded,

CW was supposed to be out before open beta, then before launch, then before the first of the year. we later found out they had not even started on it till they finished the contract renegotiations like a year after it was supposed to be delivered. then the transverse debocal happened. and gold mechs and even more bad blood between the studio and the core player base, which led to the mass exodus of the old player base.

So yes not only will it work, it would fix almost all the problems with balance, even with the fact that they have screwed the game up so much by moving away from the original project. people will always gravitate to the better weapons or combos. IT WILL NOT STOP with nerfing a weapon type as the constant meta shift has shown us. You have to change the core mechanic that controls the weapon to heat disparity or you are just moving to the next over powered combo that players manage to break.

Edited by Slepnir, 15 October 2015 - 05:27 AM.

[TexAce]

Slepnir, on 15 October 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

IT WILL NOT STOP with nerfing a weapon type as the constant meta shift has shown us. You have to change the core mechanic that controls the weapon to heat disparity or you are just moving to the next over powered combo that players manage to break.

Games are not TT, this above will never stop in a MMO game, ever. It's like this on all multiplayer games out there. Meta evolves, gets catered, gets nerfed, player find new meta. This goes on and on.

Get used to it or go play TT but don't get your old ass stories out of your old ass hat and talk about gold mechs and what a founder was promised. This is the game, period. I'm here since mid 2012 and I've heard this old ass stories far to often.

I thought you guys are already all gone. Must be more fun to play this game or roam the forums than play TT, huh?

Edited by TexAce, 15 October 2015 - 05:31 AM.

[Slepnir]

TexAce, on 15 October 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

Games are not TT, this above will never stop in a MMO game, ever. It's like this on all multiplayer games out there. Meta evolves, gets catered, gets nerfed, player find new meta. This goes on and on.

Get used to it or go play TT but don't get your old ass stories out of your old ass hat and talk about gold mechs and what a founder was promised. This is the game, period. I'm here since mid 2012 and I've heard this old ass stories far to often.

I thought you guys are already all gone. Must be more fun to play this game or roam the forums than play TT, huh?

I play TT on Saturdays, its kinda a thing since I work there at the game shop as a volunteer so you wont see me online, when I play online I also play war thunder, star trek online, and MWO when MWLL is on off peak hours. when eternal crusade and battlefleet gothic armada come out I think I will be playing there a lot more than here. I also hardly post in the forums unless it is something I really feel concerned about.

Why should I have left? because I gave a little short history lesson on how we got to this point for players that were not here since closed beta? or do you feel entitled to complain about people pointing out the reality of what has happened because you already lived through it? I would like to see MWO be more successful but given the track record of bandaid fixes I cannot see it make the game better to fix the symptom and not the cause.

Edited by Slepnir, 15 October 2015 - 05:45 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Slepnir, on 15 October 2015 - 05:21 AM, said:

That's actually completely wrong.
Most players would play like they do now, have mechs from both sides or different accounts for each side. if PGI was so concerned about balancing weapons they would have set the game at the start of the 4th succession war and left the clans alone.

and i own an LRM boat; do you know how often i use it? about once a month. different accounts lol; yeah i am sure but those accounts would be used for when clanners get tired of winning every match, take a break as IS then come back.

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if PGI was so concerned about balancing weapons they would have set the game at the start of the 4th succession war and left the clans alone.

it seems it was a decision not made by pgi but by igp to sell mechs.
so you putting the blame on them isn't really proving or solving or doing anything, the mechs were sold already

[Tombstoner]

Otto Cannon, on 14 October 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

It was leaving obviously broken mechanics unaddressed for months or years that was the problem- now that he's actually making changes we should at least be constructive and try to help fix the game we all play.

What..? you mean while PGI was developing Transverse? Now that he's got some free time "we" need to be constructive and try to help fix the game..... HELLO Mcfly..... what do you think we've been doing since 2011.

The game has a rotten foundation called convergence and when it was removed nothing was added in its place leading to the current state of issues on top of whack a mole game balancing/design.

[SaltBeef]

Marmon Rzohr, on 15 October 2015 - 03:50 AM, said:

Go on the PTS. Try out the nerfed Clans against the non-quirked IS. See how that goes. I pilot Clan mechs exclusively and what I see is not the Clans getting nerfed, it's Clans moving toward being balanced. I mean doesn't it tell you something that even with crazy quirks the best IS mechs barely keep up with the best Clan mechs ?

The idea is to balance the game without the need for hyper quirks, because hyper quirks also make the game less varied and less fun.

Also keep in mind this is only one step in the process. While I understand your skepticism in general, this balancing direction is actually quite clever IMO.


Information Warfare MUST affect firepower in order to have a significant impact in the game.

Imagine if in WoT spotting didn't reveal enemy tanks just gave you type of tank, it's gun characteristics and highlighted it's weak points. Anyone who is good would already know all of that information the instant they saw the tanks outline and so spotting would be near useless to good players.

That's almost what we have right now in MWO. If we want scouting and information warfare to matter they're going to have to have an impact on core gameplay.

I have the PTS almost fully updated, I will try it out for fairness. Getting sick of Nerfs so it is pissing me off. I am no META tryhard and am a Scrub Tier 3 player. I see that some of the changes will break up the Laser Vomit Meta which is good, and Make ECM act more Lore like, and make Lurms useful in more Tiers. Maybe these guys are right and I am overreacting a bit. But it is knee jerk from the constant Nerfings can never get used to the game before something gets tinkered with.

[SaltBeef]

I do not see the point of locked chassis under Omni mech rules if they are just changing everything. No locked components or engines, No burst AC, All these Nerf proposals are not worth the IS quirk swap especially since they are going to be structure buffing
.

[Galenit]

Dino Might, on 14 October 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

From a "why does this make sense in pseudo-real world" perspective:

If not targetting a mech leads to the lenses not focusing correctly, then why not just set the lens focal point at infinity? It's a small opening for the laser light to exit. Why does it need to focus down to an even smaller pinpoint? Is that really the only way they do damage? If so, you'd never really hurt anything unless you got really lucky. You'd just put a bunch of tiny pinholes in mechs and wouldn't blow off limbs or destroy large portions of the mech.

The only way to get significant dispersion for reduced damage is to set a focal point very (and I mean very) close to the muzzle so that you have significant dispersion at normal weapon ranges. Who would do this? Just set it at infinity and you'll have no dispersion. Maybe you don't get optimal damage on a pinpoint, but you are still delivering the same energy to an area that's maybe less than a meter in diameter - seems good enough for government work. If we're somehow blowing limbs off with lasers, then that point of impact is probably already fairly large and not, in fact, the head of a pin, so the lens focusing issue makes no sense whatsoever.

A focused beam with a radius of 1mm distributes the energy on an area of 3.14mm².
An unfocus beam with a radius of 10mm distributes the energy on an area of 314.159mm².


This picture is from a cuttinglaser, it shows how it works in our world without space magic.

Simple transition to the game:
Your 5 damage focused laser with a beamradius of 1mm does 1.59 damage per 1 mm²,
if its unfocused with a 10mm beam, it only does 0.0159 damage per mm².


Now think about a armorplate of 2mm, it needs 2 damage to breach it.
The focused laser needs 2 hits to breach this plate and will do a hole of 1mm radius.
The unfocused laser needs around 126 hits to breach the plate, but it will give a hole of 10mm radius.

Edit:
A beam with 1.5mm radius will do 0.7 damage per 1mm²
It needs 3 hits do breach the armorplate and will give you 1.5mm radius hole.

A fixed focus for a laser gives you only a small range where you would do damage, every range above or under it will do nearly no damage.

Edited by Galenit, 15 October 2015 - 06:34 AM.

[Mad Ox]

So basically forget ever killing fast moving light mechs.... oh goodie NOT

[Wildstreak]

Kraftwerkedup, on 14 October 2015 - 03:09 PM, said:

PPCs, then LRMs, then Lasers, then ACs, then Lasers, then LRMs, then PPCs, then SRMs, then PPCs, then Lasers, now PPCs again.

What a merrygoround...

Clearly we need a Machine Gun / Flamer meta.

[SaltBeef]

Clans may be Fascist Spartans but the IS was No better. They just spent the last 250yrs nuking the crap out of each other are divided by race and have killed more of thier own than the Clans killed. Still have the fruitnuts Blakinists after the Fed Com War.

Edited by SaltBeef, 15 October 2015 - 06:58 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

Tombstoner, on 15 October 2015 - 05:53 AM, said:

What..? you mean while PGI was developing Transverse? Now that he's got some free time "we" need to be constructive and try to help fix the game..... HELLO Mcfly..... what do you think we've been doing since 2011.

The game has a rotten foundation called convergence and when it was removed nothing was added in its place leading to the current state of issues on top of whack a mole game balancing/design.

Well aware of all that. I'm just suggesting we make the best of what we have. I would have liked a proper convergence solution but PGI have made it very clear that will never happen.

Anyone who plans to continue playing this game has an interest in trying to make sure Paul doesn't wreck it too badly. He might have a history of ignoring helpful information and suggestions, but that's still a better chance than just shouting about how bad it is which will have zero chance to change his mind and justify the 'toxic forum' excuse they use.

[Dino Might]

Galenit, on 15 October 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

A focused beam with a radius of 1mm distributes the energy on an area of 3.14mm².
An unfocus beam with a radius of 10mm distributes the energy on an area of 314.159mm².


This picture is from a cuttinglaser, it shows how it works in our world without space magic.

Simple transition to the game:
Your 5 damage focused laser with a beamradius of 1mm does 1.59 damage per 1 mm²,
if its unfocused with a 10mm beam, it only does 0.0159 damage per mm².


Now think about a armorplate of 2mm, it needs 2 damage to breach it.
The focused laser needs 2 hits to breach this plate and will do a hole of 1mm radius.
The unfocused laser needs around 126 hits to breach the plate, but it will give a hole of 10mm radius.

Edit:
A beam with 1.5mm radius will do 0.7 damage per 1mm²
It needs 3 hits do breach the armorplate and will give you 1.5mm radius hole.

A fixed focus for a laser gives you only a small range where you would do damage, every range above or under it will do nearly no damage.

I hear ya, but there is some space magic that gives us a collimated beam that is probably about a foot in diameter, at least. I'm just going on graphics here. If lasers only did their damage in 1mm radius areas, you'd be hard pressed to ever hurt anything in a mech, because there's a ton of empty space, and not everything you touch would be the critical juncture of an actuator or ammo feed. I assume that the lasers have to have a fairly large point of impact area and still do appreciable damage. Given this, the beam, while somewhat focused, is mostly reliant on the collimation in the tube to keep from dispersing too much. To the point, if you didn't add a focus lens on the end of it, and just had a collimated beam, you would have a slightly larger point of impact area than your collimator tube (assuming imperfect alignment of all rays). Add focusing lens that focuses out at extreme distance (infinity for all intents and purposes), and now you've got a beam with the same diameter as your tube and it's not going to disperse to any significant degree.

If you need such drastic focusing elements on the ends of the laser barrel, such that adjustment would take whole seconds to go from 600m to 300m, then why the hell do you have a collimator tube at all? It's obviously not working. Why not just pump all the light through fiber optic and you can ditch the big tube so your laser emitters can be tiny. One critical slot for a medium laser? Hah, more like one critical slot for 100 medium lasers.

Given the space magic that is already lore, I supposed the logicial conclusions of that space magic, and they convince me that this focusing stuff for ghost damage is stretching magic space reality way too hard.

I do give them points for trying, though. I appreciate that there is at least some reason, however far-fetched and inconsistent with the other elements of the lore it may be.

My biggest gripe about this change is going to be the unintended consequences for mechs that were not a big problem to begin with. That Panther with its 4 mpulse...gotta get that thing nerfed, too. That's all I see in the highest tier comp teams...