90 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 October 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Remember, this is the mentality that got us Lowlanders, Victorslugs, Ghost Heat, Gauss Charge up, Hoverjets, and Floaty PPCs.

This community has never wanted balance, it just wants whatever they don't use to be nerfed.

I agree with this for all except the Gauss charge up...I think that the charge makes it feel like a unique weapon (most others feel very similar/sameish) and helps add a degree of skill floor + ceiling to a very powerful weapon.

[sycocys]

Like Mischief says, don't worry your precious laser vomit is still completely viable. You just have to actually plan your attack now, I know its a crazy notion to have to consider - but please try.

And as far as nerfing things, every single weapon needs to brought into line - except flamers. They just need to do something useful. Incorporating some of that change directly into the info tech and linking how weapons work with your targeting systems? It really is a pretty novel approach, it add depth to even a solo players tactics and a lot more to group tactics.

The current way things are working across the board on the live servers and for the past 2 years is so shallow you couldn't even get the soles of your feet wet. I'm sorry its not a pure BT implementation, but it is a hell of a lot better than what is live now and looks to be far more expandable with plenty of layers of depth in customization to make roles and a wider variety of builds quite viable throughout all tiers.

[Dracol]

Darlith, on 14 October 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Not a big fan of my 162m optimal medium lasers if I'm not targeting the person I shoot at. Especially when my ac/20 gets its 270 regardless.

Even less a fan of trying to trade with gauss users if I have lasers now.

However it is kind of cool that UAVs essentially make lasers more effective by letting you target before you peek.

Not picking on you, but you expressed an opinion floating around and I just happen to pick your's out of the pile.

AC/20 requires leading the target
Laser requires targeting to get full damage
Gauss requires charge up to fire

IMHO, it has moved lasers from easy mode into the same category of all the other weapons.

[FupDup]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Like Mischief says, don't worry your precious laser vomit is still completely viable. You just have to actually plan your attack now, I know its a crazy notion to have to consider - but please try.

That's a strawman.

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

And as far as nerfing things, every single weapon needs to brought into line - except flamers....

Are you putting things like AC/2, Machine Guns, and SRM2 on that list?

Because really, the only weapons that can be argued as OP are certain Clan lasers (e.g. Clan LPL and ERML biggest offenders) and Gauss Rifles...everything else is fine as-is or could even use buffs in some cases.

[sycocys]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

That's a strawman.



Are you putting things like AC/2, Machine Guns, and SRM2 on that list?

Because really, the only weapons that can be argued as OP are certain Clan lasers (e.g. Clan LPL and ERML biggest offenders) and Gauss Rifles...everything else is fine as-is or could even use buffs in some cases.

They don't have to be op to realize that they need to be tweaked down, especially when boated. The entire lot of weapons needs to come down in order to allow the game play to be more than the near install kill shooter it often currently is.

Some will need more than others. Some will need some serious look into how they are affected when multiple are equipped - there should be both buffs and debuffs alike when you boat weapons for instance instead of just factoring in a ghost heat mechanic. But the entire weapons system has gotten pretty well out of hand and way out of balance, it needs to be re-rooted at a more sane balance point.

And as this particular test shows, not every part of that balance has to start or end with the weapons systems alone - it can have factors that help feed the balance from the info tech side of things. It's minor, but whether you like it or not it actually does work on hampering the blind shooting.

Edited by sycocys, 14 October 2015 - 06:28 PM.

[FupDup]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

They don't have to be op to realize that they need to be tweaked down, especially when boated. The entire lot of weapons needs to come down in order to allow the game play to be more than the near install kill shooter it often currently is.
...

Um, that's practically the dictionary definition of being OP. Things that aren't OP shouldn't be tweaked down.

[InspectorG]

cSand, on 14 October 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Making BAP, or TC and CC mitigate the "no-lock-range-decrease" would be a great addition

Also, I can smell a module for this coming a mile away

Man, dont give these crybabies any hope!

All this panic and boo hoo is music to my ears. Let me enjoy this!

[Mystere]

Dracol, on 14 October 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Not picking on you, but you expressed an opinion floating around and I just happen to pick your's out of the pile.

AC/20 requires leading the target
Laser requires targeting to get full damage
Gauss requires charge up to fire

IMHO, it has moved lasers from easy mode into the same category of all the other weapons.

Except that "targeting" (i.e pressing "R" to get full range) is reportedly actually instant. The smart/lazy ones (take your pick ) will just macro targeting and firing to the same key or button.

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

That's a strawman.



Are you putting things like AC/2, Machine Guns, and SRM2 on that list?

Because really, the only weapons that can be argued as OP are certain Clan lasers (e.g. Clan LPL and ERML biggest offenders) and Gauss Rifles...everything else is fine as-is or could even use buffs in some cases.

So here's the thing. AC2s, MGs, SRMs, LRMs, they all need work.

Today though we're working on the viability of lasers having their effectiveness impacted by IW stuff. How much that impacts lasers (which are currently the best weapon overall. Not niche OP like gauss or the like but just overall best) relative to other weapons.

If you want to increase TTK, you end up making weapons less effective. If you make weapons more effective, you reduce TTK. So we're generally trying to get combat to last a bit longer. It's the new thing.

I'm curious to see how other weapon options stack up to lasers over the next week. As good? Better? Still inferior? How much actual impact will it have on laser damage/match?

That would be useful. Snipping that it just doesn't feel natural and you don't like having less range isn't useful. We're going to end up with overall laser nerfs. Especially to the Clans. Possibly more than this even. The question is are we only willing to take that in the form of straight stat reduction (base range decrease/base damage decrease/cycle time increase/etc) or are we able to get over our hatred of change and look at other options to change weapon performance.

[sycocys]

Well if you want to consider the entire weapon system as one OP unit then by all means look at it in that fashion.

Really its cool, you are going to sit here and pitch a fit against anything that relates to change and bringing a better balance to the game anyhow. Have fun trolling mate.

[FupDup]

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

Well if you want to consider the entire weapon system as one OP unit then by all means look at it in that fashion.

So, to confirm, do you actually, truthfully believe that everything except Flamers are too powerful? I am legitimately fearful here.

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 07:29 PM, said:

Really its cool, you are going to sit here and pitch a fit against anything that relates to change and bringing a better balance to the game anyhow.

Another strawman.

[Dracol]

Mystere, on 14 October 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Except that "targeting" (i.e pressing "R" to get full range) is reportedly actually instant. The smart/lazy ones (take your pick ) will just macro targeting and firing to the same key or button.

I hope all em lazy/smart ones do it, cause when they fire, they'll be switching targets if the target they are firing on is already targeted.

[MischiefSC]

FupDup, on 14 October 2015 - 07:33 PM, said:

So, to confirm, do you actually, truthfully believe that everything except Flamers are too powerful? I am legitimately fearful here.



Another strawman.

It's not about OP. It's about 'most effective'. Lasers are not 'op'. They are however overall superior across all situations. LPLs are pretty much best overall weapon, other lasers based on the range you're building for are going to be best in that range *and everything closer than that*.

Makes it tough to carve out a niche for things like PPCs, doesn't it? Or ballistics, really? They're cool running but if you're not going to make lasers almost too hot to use on energy only mechs that doesn't account for much. I'm playing right now - Timber Wolf, 6 CERMLs and a Gauss. It's running better than live servers; no nerfs to energy from omnipods and better DHS performance. I have to get a little closer to really gut someone with the lasers but otherwise it's fine.

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

It's not about OP. It's about 'most effective'. Lasers are not 'op'. They are however overall superior across all situations. LPLs are pretty much best overall weapon, other lasers based on the range you're building for are going to be best in that range *and everything closer than that*.

Makes it tough to carve out a niche for things like PPCs, doesn't it? Or ballistics, really? They're cool running but if you're not going to make lasers almost too hot to use on energy only mechs that doesn't account for much. I'm playing right now - Timber Wolf, 6 CERMLs and a Gauss. It's running better than live servers; no nerfs to energy from omnipods and better DHS performance. I have to get a little closer to really gut someone with the lasers but otherwise it's fine.

Bump the speed and cooldown on PPCs up, and they are better than lasers at range, but lose to damage output when the range gets closer (and not hull down/peeking).

cDHS can get 20 TrueDubs with the current system (up from 17). A bigger buff than the isDHS heat cap.


Weapon Balance isn't a very complicated thing; it just hasn't been seriously touched in over a year.

[Kraftwerkedup]

No ones saying laser vomit didnt need to be toned down.

Ghost Damage is not a solution, just like Ghost Heat.

Balance the stats, dont just throw hidden arbitrary mechanics at us because "role warfare". Theres a better way to accomplish the same thing.

[FupDup]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

It's not about OP. It's about 'most effective'. Lasers are not 'op'. They are however overall superior across all situations. LPLs are pretty much best overall weapon, other lasers based on the range you're building for are going to be best in that range *and everything closer than that*.

Makes it tough to carve out a niche for things like PPCs, doesn't it? Or ballistics, really? They're cool running but if you're not going to make lasers almost too hot to use on energy only mechs that doesn't account for much. I'm playing right now - Timber Wolf, 6 CERMLs and a Gauss. It's running better than live servers; no nerfs to energy from omnipods and better DHS performance. I have to get a little closer to really gut someone with the lasers but otherwise it's fine.

As a reminder, I actually pointed out things like the Clan LPL being among the contenders for the few weapons that could be considered OP.

My point is that the vast majority of the weapons, including LRMs, SRMs, ACs, PPCs, MGs, IS lasers, etc. don't quality as being OP...at all. Among those, I'd even consider several to be underpowered (e.g. the non-20 IS ACs weigh too much compared to what you get in return).

[Mystere]

Dracol, on 14 October 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

I hope all em lazy/smart ones do it, cause when they fire, they'll be switching targets if the target they are firing on is already targeted.

Oops! I missed that part.

Thanks for the heads-up. Macro set now updated.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 14 October 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

Bump the speed and cooldown on PPCs up, and they are better than lasers at range, but lose to damage output when the range gets closer (and not hull down/peeking).

cDHS can get 20 TrueDubs with the current system (up from 17). A bigger buff than the isDHS heat cap.


Weapon Balance isn't a very complicated thing; it just hasn't been seriously touched in over a year.

Again, don't bump ANYTHING seriously. I'd be all for increasing PPC (not ERPPC) velocity a tad now though. Not the cooldown; otherwise you just blew LPLs out of the water at mid range.

I'm seeing TTK is longer. That's not bad at all.

[InRev]

Kraftwerkedup, on 14 October 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

No ones saying laser vomit didnt need to be toned down.

Ghost Damage is not a solution, just like Ghost Heat.

Balance the stats, dont just throw hidden arbitrary mechanics at us because "role warfare". Theres a better way to accomplish the same thing.

I definitely don't see why IS MLs and SLs needed to be included in the blanket nerf. If anything, they needed a buff. Collateral damage, it seems

[Mcgral18]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

Again, don't bump ANYTHING seriously. I'd be all for increasing PPC (not ERPPC) velocity a tad now though. Not the cooldown; otherwise you just blew LPLs out of the water at mid range.

I'm seeing TTK is longer. That's not bad at all.

Higher cooldown means longer recycle which means less DPS (which means LPL will win in damage output).

Faster, but worse DPS.

Effective at range, but not in an extended fight.


I'd say isSmalls, Flamers, MGs and SRMs could stand for Serious buffs.