90 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 October 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Remember, this is the mentality that got us Lowlanders, Victorslugs, Ghost Heat, Gauss Charge up, Hoverjets, and Floaty PPCs.

This community has never wanted balance, it just wants whatever they don't use to be nerfed.

Exactly.

This community is full of myopic clowns who spend one year endlessly bitching about PPCs and PPFLD, telling people who use lasers they are scrubs because of the face time.

Then they spend the next year begging for PPCs to not be trash weapons without quirks, and for Lasers (which are now OP, meta-humping, no skill weapons) to be nerfed on a daily basis.


Basically they don't like things that kill them.

Some of them want to play frankenmechs with 4 different weapon systems that don't compliment each other at all.

Some of them want to just stand in the open spamming DPS weapons that can't scratch paint so they can feel powerful in their hard to kill robots.


But none of them seem to comprehend that one meta, will be replaced by another.

The next optimal set of loadouts and mechs that can run it will be solved, it will be run constantly by players whose goal is winning.

PGI will eventually catch on, take a full year to let it play and sell a bunch of mechs that run that loadout to capitalize (Grasshopper, Black Knight, Crab, Wolfhound, most of the clan wave 2 and 3 mechs).


Then, right around critical complaint level, they will nerf it.




Some of us remember when all energy Heavy & Assault mechs were considered garbage tier.

Most of these people do not.

sycocys, on 14 October 2015 - 06:14 PM, said:

Like Mischief says, don't worry your precious laser vomit is still completely viable. You just have to actually plan your attack now, I know its a crazy notion to have to consider - but please try.

No, players will either make it work - or shift to the next best thing.


Lasers will either continue to work and continue to be used, or they will be abandoned in favor of whatever works better.

I promise.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 14 October 2015 - 08:21 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 14 October 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

Higher cooldown means longer recycle which means less DPS (which means LPL will win in damage output).

Faster, but worse DPS.

Effective at range, but not in an extended fight.


I'd say isSmalls, Flamers, MGs and SRMs could stand for Serious buffs.

Ah. Okay. Yeah, agree with all of that.

I'm all for buffing those and reworking LRMs. THose are things I'd consider a must-do for weapons to be 'balanced'. Same with a ballistics rework so AC2s, 10s and UACs for Clans as well as LBX for everyone are less soaked in suck.

That's not this PTS though.

This is about a foundation for IW. I'm finding it.... interesting. It has potential.

[MischiefSC]

Ultimatum X, on 14 October 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

Exactly.

This community is full of myopic clowns who spend one year endlessly bitching about PPCs and PPFLD, telling people who use lasers they are scrubs because of the face time.

Then they spend the next year begging for PPCs to not be trash weapons without quirks, and for Lasers (which are now OP, meta-humping, no skill weapons) to be nerfed on a daily basis.


Basically they don't like things that kill them.

Some of them want to play frankenmechs with 4 different weapon systems that don't compliment each other at all.

Some of them want to just stand in the open spamming DPS weapons that can't scratch paint so they can feel powerful in their hard to kill robots.


But none of them seem to comprehend that one meta, will be replaced by another.

The next optimal set of loadouts and mechs that can run it will be solved, it will be run constantly by players whose goal is winning.

PGI will eventually catch on, take a full year to let it play and sell a bunch of mechs that run that loadout to capitalize (Grasshopper, Black Knight, Crab, Wolfhound, most of the clan wave 2 and 3 mechs).


Then, right around critical complaint level, they will nerf it.




Some of us remember when all energy Heavy & Assault mechs were considered garbage tier.

Most of these people do not.




No, players will either make it work - or shift to the next best thing.


Lasers will either continue to work and continue to be used, or they will be abandoned in favor of whatever works better.

I promise.

Correction - the most competitive players will always do so.

The trick to balance is to make those differences as narrow in performance as possible. Over the early days of of Starcraft it had a big range of patches that changed the meta. First Protoss were bad because they were simply too expensive to get their good units before the other side got a door kicking party together. Then Psi Storm got nerfed cuz mass Psi Storm was stupid. At some point Zerg got some buffs and Battlecruisers got a tiny buff (cheaper I think) and....

balance. Individual player preference and style meant more than tiny variations in performance of units and production.

Admittedly that's the golden elite example. The point however is that, actually, you can balance performance along different axis to get reasonably comparable. Will the 'meta' change? Always. The point though is to narrow that gap between 'meta' and everything else enough that it's of reasonably minimal importance.

Saying '**** it, there will always be a meta, don't balance anything. People will play the stuff that is OP/flat out superior or they'll play other stuff and be farmed by those who do' is the worst conceivable concept (which is what you're advocating here, be honest) you could have for a game design.

It is *why* the game has sucked for years. There's never been a serious 'balance' attempt. Just some random buffs and nerfs on way outlier stuff. Also sometimes random stuff. Ballistic drop on AC10s cuz.... yeah. SO OP. Now PGI is looking at a rebalance from the ground up and people are crying that.... what, they don't want it balanced? Don't even want an attempt? Just leave it as it is cuz change is scary and **** it I'm already used to the laser meta?

**** that.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 08:52 PM, said:

-snip-

The thing about SC is that it's about brains and not reflex.

This game and 99.99% of the other shooters on the market are about reflex. The performance difference between Weapon A and Weapon B even if a 5-10% difference really does matter.

Hell, when I switched from a SIG to a CZ I literally shaved half a minute off my time in steel matches. When I'm on the range just plinking about with friends or family, there is no performance difference between my SIG and CZ.

However, once it's time for me to suit up for a competition, my CZ comes out and my SIG goes up simply because the CZ is better. Marginally, but it's enough for me to bump my scores up roughly 8%. And that 8% often means coming in 4th or 1st.

Why this example?

My friends are average shooters at best. They can't tell the performance difference between a Glock17, SIG 226, CZ75, 92FS, 1911, or Taurus 99. My and my friends that shoot a lot more will tell you that for (stock) competitions Glocks are ****, Berettas are okay, Taurus are ****, and 1911s are plain stupid.

Same goes for many of the weapons in this game. The top players will still find the best performing weapons in a reflex based game, because there always will be. The key to finding actual balance is making it so that the vast majority of the player base can't really feel the imbalance between weapons. As it stands now, everyone knows that the IS LPL is far beyond superior to the PPC, or that the cERML is superior to the IS LL. And that's not balance.

[MischiefSC]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 October 2015 - 09:40 PM, said:

The thing about SC is that it's about brains and not reflex.

This game and 99.99% of the other shooters on the market are about reflex. The performance difference between Weapon A and Weapon B even if a 5-10% difference really does matter.

Hell, when I switched from a SIG to a CZ I literally shaved half a minute off my time in steel matches. When I'm on the range just plinking about with friends or family, there is no performance difference between my SIG and CZ.

However, once it's time for me to suit up for a competition, my CZ comes out and my SIG goes up simply because the CZ is better. Marginally, but it's enough for me to bump my scores up roughly 8%. And that 8% often means coming in 4th or 1st.

Why this example?

My friends are average shooters at best. They can't tell the performance difference between a Glock17, SIG 226, CZ75, 92FS, 1911, or Taurus 99. My and my friends that shoot a lot more will tell you that for (stock) competitions Glocks are ****, Berettas are okay, Taurus are ****, and 1911s are plain stupid.

Same goes for many of the weapons in this game. The top players will still find the best performing weapons in a reflex based game, because there always will be. The key to finding actual balance is making it so that the vast majority of the player base can't really feel the imbalance between weapons. As it stands now, everyone knows that the IS LPL is far beyond superior to the PPC, or that the cERML is superior to the IS LL. And that's not balance.

You actually hit on the crux of it. Individual lasers still need adjusting. No question, I expect it and wouldn't consider it balanced without that.

The question is though, even after lasers are 'normalized' to other lasers..... lasers are still flat out better to PPCs and ballistics. Hitscan, 40-50pt alpha. So how do you pull lasers out of every corner of the performance spectrum to make room for other weapons to compete?

Ideally I'd love for PPC/Ballistic poptart/whatever to come back and be competitive with lasers. At a pure competitive level there will be some meta. Maybe lasers, maybe poptarting again, whatever. The point though is that right now the difference between lasers and PPCs for example is a lot more than 10% difference. There's no 'niche' for PPCs right now. Or AC10s, or really even all ballistics compared to lasers. Gauss + lasers on things with the tonnage being the exception.

So you need to dial lasers back overall compared to every other weapon. Rather than nerf them across the board outright this tries to pull them back out of every corner and niche them at closer range, controlled engagements. Longer range sniping if you've got a spotter or are kitted for sniping with lasers and that alone (and sacrifice more tonnage to it). Is it enough? No, probably not. You also need some other individual weapon buffs and nerfs across the spectrum.

As a concept to do so without just a blanket laser nerf? It's not a bad choice. Our habitual perceptions aside it's not that complex. Locking targets keeps your lasers effective at longer ranges. Snap-shots are more complex. That's going to result in fewer clean shots over a whole match. Will that end up being better/worse than a ballistic build of some sort? Dunno. That's what the test is for.

So for all of our bitching (mine too) about Ghost Heat and such this is actually a situation where we want some sideways change for lasers to still keep them effective but pull them back out of every other niche. Not by nerfing damage or DPS or range or recycle but tying their long range performance to IW. That's not a bad approach.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

You actually hit on the crux of it. Individual lasers still need adjusting. No question, I expect it and wouldn't consider it balanced without that.

The question is though, even after lasers are 'normalized' to other lasers..... lasers are still flat out better to PPCs and ballistics. Hitscan, 40-50pt alpha. So how do you pull lasers out of every corner of the performance spectrum to make room for other weapons to compete?

Ideally I'd love for PPC/Ballistic poptart/whatever to come back and be competitive with lasers. At a pure competitive level there will be some meta. Maybe lasers, maybe poptarting again, whatever. The point though is that right now the difference between lasers and PPCs for example is a lot more than 10% difference. There's no 'niche' for PPCs right now. Or AC10s, or really even all ballistics compared to lasers. Gauss + lasers on things with the tonnage being the exception.

So you need to dial lasers back overall compared to every other weapon. Rather than nerf them across the board outright this tries to pull them back out of every corner and niche them at closer range, controlled engagements. Longer range sniping if you've got a spotter or are kitted for sniping with lasers and that alone (and sacrifice more tonnage to it). Is it enough? No, probably not. You also need some other individual weapon buffs and nerfs across the spectrum.

As a concept to do so without just a blanket laser nerf? It's not a bad choice. Our habitual perceptions aside it's not that complex. Locking targets keeps your lasers effective at longer ranges. Snap-shots are more complex. That's going to result in fewer clean shots over a whole match. Will that end up being better/worse than a ballistic build of some sort? Dunno. That's what the test is for.

So for all of our bitching (mine too) about Ghost Heat and such this is actually a situation where we want some sideways change for lasers to still keep them effective but pull them back out of every other niche. Not by nerfing damage or DPS or range or recycle but tying their long range performance to IW. That's not a bad approach.

When it comes to PPCs... at the very minimum of putting the velocity back to 1500 m/s before that mega-nerf would pretty much be enough.

[MischiefSC]

Deathlike, on 14 October 2015 - 09:54 PM, said:

When it comes to PPCs... at the very minimum of putting the velocity back to 1500 m/s before that mega-nerf would pretty much be enough.

I'm willing to lean that way but you don't want to swing the pendulum the opposite direction. Dial it up a little every week over a few weeks to test.

Conversely maybe the nerf to lasers needs to be a bit steeper. I dunno. Like I said though, the concept is good. Best one we've had on a PTS. It actually does what we want - makes room for other weapons without stomping lasers into trash or reducing TTK.

[50 50]

@sycocys
Thank you for putting up some actual information on these changes.
Having not yet had chance to test them myself, there has been precious little actual feedback to read.

[Elizander]

I guess they really want us to equip that Target Info Gathering module.

[Carl Vickers]

MischiefSC, on 14 October 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

ECM Has been a mountain of **** since inception. Now it's 1.5 or 1 ton of useful. It provides some protection from locking weapons. Thank God it's getting 2 to the back of the head. A big meta change for clans; how does the HBR figure now?

Strongly encourages locking targets and teamwork. Suddenly UAV is a big deal. You have some value added back to ppcs for the energy hardpoints.

I get that Fuppy Duppy hates it but as soon as Paul shoes up FupDup hates everything and everyone for a week. All in all I like where the logic around it is going. I hope we get questionable accuracy without locks next. If you're not locking targets within range you're a burden to your team and always have been. This just makes you a burden to yourself as well.

My HBR will still have the ECM, in anticipation of lurmageddon. While it is not god mode invisible it still makes the lock take time, every second counts.

[Kmieciu]

Carl, on 14 October 2015 - 11:18 PM, said:

My HBR will still have the ECM, in anticipation of lurmageddon. While it is not god mode invisible it still makes the lock take time, every second counts.

ECM+radar derp+ a bit of cover still lets you permanently hide your paperdoll and protects you from locks? If that's the case then it's still the most valuable 1 tonne of equipment in the game. Certainly better than AMS.

Edited by Kmieciu, 14 October 2015 - 11:38 PM.