21 replies to this topic

[Shivaxi]

"Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range."

Seriously? PGI...what...the ****...are you doing?? Who thought this was a good idea, and in what universe does this make any sense at all? So because you are not targeting a mech, you don't do full damage? Excuse me?! Ok so this means ECM basically becomes a damage reduction shield...

This is just...I...I don't even know where to start or what to say about this. This is NOT how you balance a game...it just isn't. This isn't going to work. You want to balance the game? Listen to what people have been saying for YEARS. Heat capacity is and has always been too damn high. This is why the game is basically alpha-warrior and boating weapons and being able to one-shot most mechs. If you implemented the real heat capacity (30 heat) and heat scaling and heat dissipation (a system which I might add has 30 or so years of testing behind it through many many games) it would fix all these issues, no more rediculous high alpha one-shotting builds, no more being able to fire a thousand weapons at once, brawling would come back, mechs wouldn't die in 5 seconds, and there would be no need for ghost heat anymore either...

I feel like I'm wasting my breath, this has been said over and over again for the past 3 years now, and to no avail. There are other issue I see with this test phase but this one is by far the biggest, making weapons do less damage just because you aren't targeting the mech you're shooting...just...no...please no.

On another note though, the changes to targeting are at least promising, since the idea of target info being relayed to all your teammates across the whole map never made quite much sense and also is not how any mechwarrior/battletech game worked. It's a step in the right direction but I would still love to see an actual radar system like true MechWarrior, then we can get active and passive radar which would be awesome.

Also removing weapons and mech quirks is definitely a step in the right direction, they were all made up and made no sense and again, a poor way to balance things, so i'm glad to see these go. It was rather sad when you could tell the exact loadout of a mech straight away just by looking at it, since the quirk system basically forced everyone to build mechs around the quirks, or you wouldn't be up to par with others on the battlefield.

The heat sink changes...well..I already ranted about the heat problem. If we got normal heat capacity and all that, we could easily have real single and double heat sinks, insead of...single heat sinks actually 1.1 and double heat sinks now 1.5 for inner sphere and 1.2 for clans.

So yeah, those are my thoughts. Overall seems like good steps but, for the love of MechWarrior PLEASE do not do this: "Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range."

[Krivvan]

The Clan changes are a good start, but need to go further. Specifically heat capacity needs to be lowered even more for Clan DHS.

The laser targeting thing isn't too big a deal:
Blue being what behavior is while targeting

Edited by Krivvan, 14 October 2015 - 04:12 PM.

[SkyHammyr]

Have you tested it?
Doesn't say anywhere in your post that you played these changes or not.

If you have, post your match scores to show your damage isn't like it should be.
If you haven't, STFU and test it.

[Gas Guzzler]

FYI, ECM doesn't delay the full range of your lasers. As soon as you hit R its there. The only delay is the target info gathering.


At this point you might be asking what is the point of ECM? Well I'll tell you.

There is no point to ECM

Krivvan, on 14 October 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

The Clan changes are a good start, but need to go further. Specifically heat capacity needs to be lowered even more for Clan DHS.

The laser targeting thing isn't too big a deal:
Blue being what behavior is while targeting

You posted the wrong plot.

[Kraftwerkedup]

The good - Clam laser nerfs, redoing quirks, HS changes (SHS may need more help) ECM changes

The bad - Infotech (with potential to go up to good)

The ugly - Ghost Damage

That is all.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 14 October 2015 - 04:20 PM.

[oldradagast]

SkyHammr, on 14 October 2015 - 04:15 PM, said:

Have you tested it?
Doesn't say anywhere in your post that you played these changes or not.

If you have, post your match scores to show your damage isn't like it should be.
If you haven't, STFU and test it.

Have you ever stuck your face into an roaring fire? You haven't said anywhere in your post if you did or not. If you have, post your photos to prove that it hurts. If not, STFU and test it.

Newsflash: you don't need to "test" something as idiotic as "ghost damage," where some weapons magically deal less damage without a full target lock. It's another tacked-on, random mechanic - like ghost heat - that this game does not need.

A simple cone of fire would fix this. Tighten it up when a target is locked - done. And the game can already handle this mechanic since we see cones of fire when using MASC, jump-jets, or machine guns.

Instead, we get blinded mechs, ghost damage, and other random idiocy that will just make the game more confusing and result in more mechs being rendered useless.

[SkyHammyr]

oldradagast, on 14 October 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Have you ever stuck your face into an roaring fire? You haven't said anywhere in your post if you did or not. If you have, post your photos to prove that it hurts. If not, STFU and test it..

If you haven't even tried it, then you have NO IDEA how it works in game.
Idiot.

[Kraftwerkedup]

Ive never played Pillars of Eternity.

Pretty sure I have a damned good idea how a Mage works in that game.

[SkyHammyr]

If you don't play it.
Then you're just noise and hyperbole.
And, I'm not taking you seriously.

[Johnny Z]

2 light drops, 2 medium drops, 2 heavy drops, 2 assault drops. All kinds of weapons, lrms, srm, ac's, lasers. All Inner Sphere mechs.

So far the changes are great and hardly noticable. Except the lack of red hit confirmation.

[L3mming2]

oldradagast, on 14 October 2015 - 04:23 PM, said:

Have you ever stuck your face into an roaring fire? You haven't said anywhere in your post if you did or not. If you have, post your photos to prove that it hurts. If not, STFU and test it.

Newsflash: you don't need to "test" something as idiotic as "ghost damage," where some weapons magically deal less damage without a full target lock. It's another tacked-on, random mechanic - like ghost heat - that this game does not need.

A simple cone of fire would fix this. Tighten it up when a target is locked - done. And the game can already handle this mechanic since we see cones of fire when using MASC, jump-jets, or machine guns.

Instead, we get blinded mechs, ghost damage, and other random idiocy that will just make the game more confusing and result in more mechs being rendered useless.

hes got a point, if u actualy play it it feels a hole lot different than it reads.. (ive done 10+ maches now)
if it was up to me i would want that the not locked ranges would become the constant ranges of the lasers, however i think it is the prise well have to pay to get role warfaire and meaningfull infoteck (some things ppl have been QQ to get for ages... (be carfull wath you wich for ))

overall if u play it it feels like its got a load of potential, unlike the first time..

so my advise play it for 20 games and juge then, it might change your opinion, if it douse not it will give it atleast some credebility...

[HUBA]

Shivaxi, on 14 October 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

"Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range."

Even if I not really understand what it is telling me The idea is not the worse. But it should be sold better (and changed a bit). Giving a damage boost for Mech that you have a active lock on because you targeting computer knows what you are shooting and can optimize the parameters, seams a reasonable mechanic. But reducing range just looks weird I admit.

Edit:
But as it explained here it is also good

Edited by HUBA, 14 October 2015 - 05:19 PM.

[oldradagast]

SkyHammr, on 14 October 2015 - 04:28 PM, said:

If you haven't even tried it, then you have NO IDEA how it works in game.
Idiot.

If you're not smart enough to know something is a bad idea without "trying it," then I bet you live a very amusing life...

[TwoUps]

The good:
- agree that removal of "Quirks" is a move in the right direction.. there are much more META builds out there than prior to introduction of "Quirks"...
- agree that ECM should no longer prevent locks. However, the lock delays should be in terms of percentage rather than specific amount of time.
- target information sharing is a move in the right direction.. however this deviate from mechwarrior world where one would need an additional equipment onboard for those kind of info sharing..


The Improvable:
- Increase the "Module" and "Pilot skills" variety. eg. damage reduction (from missile, balastic, energy), advance sensor (eg. sensor range, detectable range, target locking time, etc), advance weapon (weapon range, damage, accuracy, spread)
- Sensor range balancing makes more sense where the target acquisition rate is a percentage based on the target mech's tonnage/speed, not just mech class. It seems more logical if its harder to lock onto a smaller or faster moving target, and therefore still apply an advantages towards lighter mechs.
- In the history of mechwarrior, Clan tech has always been overpowering. Instead of balancing the range of Clan weapon, other IS/Clan options can be:
1) Introduction of IS clan tech;
2) more significant tonnage/number of mech handicap during CW (aren't clan suppose to be a 5 mech star??.. so why not for IS/Clan CW to be 12vs10 mechs??);
3) Lower weapon health for Clan tech and higher crit chance for clan tech (Clan tech being more advance also more subjected to critical damage)...
- don't quite understand the justification/background to reducing energy damage without target lock. This is not compatible with our understanding of laser "technology/theory". If the idea is to nurf laser, then increase its duration; decrease its damage outside of its optimum range (ie. max range of 1.5x optimum range, rather than 2x); or the introduction of damage increases exponentially as the longer you hold your aim at a component.


The Alternative:
- Ballastic weapon to inlcude "random bullet spread". Energy weapon are hot, missile weapon have a spread, so would be more balance if the balastic weapon have a random bullet spread like most other FPS. This should also limit its alpha application. This random spread can also be introduced to energy weapons where the spread is decreased with enemy locked.

[WarHippy]

Having played a few games now most of these changes are terrible in my opinion.

-Mostly ok with the Clan laser max range nerf.
-Really dislike the cross-hair change for targeting and non targeting.
-Can't stand the ghost damage change. It is really really bad. (Optimal ranges should not be messed with period)
-ECM has pretty much no value at all now, but we will have to see how it goes.

Edited by WarHippy, 14 October 2015 - 07:03 PM.

[Kael Posavatz]

Dear PGI,

I know 'real world physics' is somewhat of a verboten subject in BattleTech but...

Okay, I take a mech out, call it a Mad Dog and give it LRMs and ER Mediums because why not.

Lock onto a target and let it eat LRMs and lasers, watch it die. Lock onto a second mech, again, LRMs away while I point lasers at secondary target (third mech) and...they turn into flashlights. Weak ones.


Any fiction requires a suspension of disbelief. This...sudden contrast in how a beam of coherent light behaves based entirely on whether my radar has a target locked or not threatens to disrupt that suspension.

I am, frankly, disbelieving pretty hard right now.

[Livewyr]

Kael 17, on 14 October 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

Dear PGI,

I know 'real world physics' is somewhat of a verboten subject in BattleTech but...

Okay, I take a mech out, call it a Mad Dog and give it LRMs and ER Mediums because why not.

Lock onto a target and let it eat LRMs and lasers, watch it die. Lock onto a second mech, again, LRMs away while I point lasers at secondary target (third mech) and...they turn into flashlights. Weak ones.


Any fiction requires a suspension of disbelief. This...sudden contrast in how a beam of coherent light behaves based entirely on whether my radar has a target locked or not threatens to disrupt that suspension.

I am, frankly, disbelieving pretty hard right now.

Imagine how the physicists among us feel about using lasers in
Curtain of snow on Frozen City Day.
The Ash on Terra Therma
The Ash in Caustic Valley
(Or Under the water from lights doing 150kph submerged to their shoulders...)
You suspension kicks in here?


(Your lasers still work, just not as far ranged without lock...)

[EvilCow]

Shivaxi, on 14 October 2015 - 03:36 PM, said:

"Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Maximum Range."

Seriously? PGI...what...the ****...are you doing?? Who thought this was a good idea, and in what universe does this make any sense at all?

Kael 17, on 14 October 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

This...sudden contrast in how a beam of coherent light behaves based entirely on whether my radar has a target locked or not threatens to disrupt that suspension.

I am, frankly, disbelieving pretty hard right now.

https://en.wikipedia...Adaptive_optics

Lock is required in order to optimize the beam focusing for a given distance.

Inferior IS tech does not have advanced optics and thus have less overall damage because the beam is not optimized at any distance, no need for distance compensation.

Strange enough, it is a change that actually makes sense:
http://optics.org/news/5/3/13
https://www.google.c...adaptive+optics

Edited by EvilCow, 15 October 2015 - 05:18 AM.

[L3mming2]

oldradagast, on 14 October 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

If you're not smart enough to know something is a bad idea without "trying it," then I bet you live a very amusing life...

and if u use the same atitude in your life, it will probably be very boring as you still live in your mothers basment ...

[Tesunie]

Krivvan, on 14 October 2015 - 04:10 PM, said:

The Clan changes are a good start, but need to go further. Specifically heat capacity needs to be lowered even more for Clan DHS.

The laser targeting thing isn't too big a deal:
Blue being what behavior is while targeting

That graph I think is how it "was suppose to be" (based on description), but it isn't acting that way in the PTS. Just an FYI.