52 replies to this topic

[Mazzyplz]

the pts server is a lot more fun due to the fact no quirks are present;

i believe at most there should only be some durability quirks for mechs like the dragon (ct) and awesome (everywhere), trebuchet(all over), catapult (ct) and atlas (ct - minor change) which have bigger than normal body parts

weapon quirks should stay 99% gone the way i see it; it will be better for the game. people in the pts are loving the longer ttk.
except maybe for the lighter mechs with few hardpoints like panther and spider; you can give some large laser quirks to those to some 5% better cooldown/heat.

that should be all that is needed in the game at all

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Mazzyplz, on 18 October 2015 - 06:40 AM, said:

the pts server is a lot more fun due to the fact no quirks are present;

i believe at most there should only be some durability quirks for mechs like the dragon (ct) and awesome (everywhere), trebuchet(all over), catapult (ct) and atlas (ct - minor change) which have bigger than normal body parts

weapon quirks should stay 99% gone the way i see it; it will be better for the game. people in the pts are loving the longer ttk.
except maybe for the lighter mechs with few hardpoints like panther and spider; you can give some large laser quirks to those to some 5% better cooldown/heat.

that should be all that is needed in the game at all

Alright then lets remove quirks, then play your 5% better cooldown/heat hunchback and ill play my Nova. Lets 1 on 1. Then, after I kill you, go play in the solo que with your Hunchie for 100 games. Have fun exploding every single match cause your mech sucks and then leaving the game after 15 matches in frustration because you thought it was a good idea to remove quirks.

Edited by Alwrath, 18 October 2015 - 07:05 AM.

[oldradagast]

I just read the title as "IS mechs should stay gone" since that's what the OP is asking for, basically.

I am so tired of "I had fun on the PTS, so it should go live."

People have "fun" doing all sorts of random and derpy things, and while fun is a valid part of balancing a game, it cannot be the only part since everyone has a vastly different definition of fun. I can safely say that if I were running dual Gauss on a Clan mech, I'd probably be LOVING the PTS right now - nerfed IS mechs, nerfed lasers, which helps kill lights and return fire, and no meaningful reduction in my own powers except sensor range, which doesn't matter at all when I can see you and drill two Gauss rounds through your chest. So, that's "fun" - and I guess that means we can go live, right? ugh...

[Sjorpha]

Alwrath, on 18 October 2015 - 07:04 AM, said:

Alright then lets remove quirks, then play your 5% better cooldown/heat hunchback and ill play my Nova. Lets 1 on 1. Then, after I kill you, go play in the solo que with your Hunchie for 100 games. Have fun exploding every single match cause your mech sucks and then leaving the game after 15 matches in frustration because you thought it was a good idea to remove quirks.

The whole point of removing quirks would be to have a baseline environment where we can keep balancing IS and clan tech, to a point where that Hunchie and Nova would be roughly equal.

Making IS mechs underpowered initially is exactly the point, we need the imbalance between factions out in the open and unobscured by bandaids like quirks and locked equipment.

Part of the reason we need this is because clan tech apologists keep using the bandaids as excuses against balancing the actual equipment. By removing these excuses from the picture the balancing discussion could stop being so plagued by those dishonest arguments. (they are of course not valid arguments now either, but it would be impossible to pretend they were anymore)

That way we can actually measure balance changes to the equipment itself. The goal would still be mech by mech parity in terms of game impact per player, and faction balance in terms of CW.

Edited by Sjorpha, 18 October 2015 - 07:48 AM.

[oldradagast]

Sjorpha, on 18 October 2015 - 07:42 AM, said:

The whole point of removing quirks would be to have a baseline environment where we can keep balancing IS and clan tech, to a point where that Hunchie and Nova would be roughly equal.

Making IS mechs underpowered initially is exactly the point, we need the imbalance between factions out in the open and unobscured by bandaids like quirks and locked equipment. That way we can actually measure balance changes to the equipment itself. The goal would still be mech by mech parity in terms of game impact.

True, except:
- That's not what the OP was proposing. He wanted the quirks to stay gone, which means IS mechs stay gone. That's what we were responding to
- Unless PGI heavily tests an environment with all the final changes in place, we'll never really know if balance has been achieved or not. I don't mind removing quirks for a testing phase to test something else that's not based on mech balance, but I am very concerned about testing everything piecemeal with no full-feature test being run and extensively exercised.

[Sjorpha]

oldradagast, on 18 October 2015 - 07:46 AM, said:

True, except:
- That's not what the OP was proposing. He wanted the quirks to stay gone, which means IS mechs stay gone. That's what we were responding to

I strongly believe, based on previous posts, that Mazzyplz wants the factions to be balanced. I think he wants quirks removed for the same reasons I want them removed, to create a healty band-aid free baseline for real balancing of IS and clan tech.

[oldradagast]

Sjorpha, on 18 October 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

I strongly believe, based on previous posts, that Mazzyplz wants the factions to be balanced. I think he wants quirks removed for the same reasons I want them removed, to create a healty band-aid free baseline for real balancing of IS and clan tech.

Fair enough - I don't know the OP well enough, but you may be correct. My reply was posted out of extreme aggravation towards any PTS testers who don't understand the great impact of the changes and who are just happy that "TTK is longer" and "lasers aren't killing me anymore." If Mazzyplz does not fall into that category, than I apologize - no direct offense was meant; I'm just very frustrated with the nuttiness that keeps showing up in each PTS incarnation and what it portends for the future of this game.

[Mazzyplz]

i am not saying that at all so nice strawman;

balancing on clan weapons isn't done yet

[oldradagast]

Mazzyplz, on 18 October 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

i am not saying that at all so nice strawman;

balancing on clan weapons isn't done yet

Well, then perhaps you should have said what you meant in your original post instead of trumpeting for joy about how the game should remain quirk free. Typical - offer an apology regarding a person's possible motives on the internet, and receive a snarky reply where assuming he means what he posted is now a "strawman."

Whatever.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 October 2015 - 08:33 AM.

[Night Thastus]

As a clanner, no. God no.
Please.
No.

[East Indy]

Could a successful rebalance mean that variants and chassis are distinguished by 5-20% quirks instead of 40%+? Yes, it's what I'm hoping for, and that would put TTK in a better place. But without any kind of offensive quirks, not only will Clans maintain superiority but a lot more 'Mechs will fall under the old geometry-and-hardpoints appraisal, and then fall by the wayside.

[L3mming2]

East Indy, on 18 October 2015 - 08:46 AM, said:

Could a successful rebalance mean that variants and chassis are distinguished by 5-20% quirks instead of 40%+? Yes, it's what I'm hoping for, and that would put TTK in a better place. But without any kind of offensive quirks, not only will Clans maintain superiority but a lot more 'Mechs will fall under the old geometry-and-hardpoints appraisal, and then fall by the wayside.

even if clan and is are balanced there will be always some chassy's that will need gaint buffs (example spider 5V)

IMO there are 2 ways to handle that ore trow in some more hard points (dont know how happy TT purists are going to be when that happens) the second way is to give them massive weapon quirks to make up for there low number of (poorly placed) hard points...

you could ofc give the 5V the same amount of armor of a atlas, but thats just realy....

[rolly]

Frankly I find the quirks excessive. So I can see where the OP is coming from. With little to no fluff text to reason why, and this over bearing mechanic of "must have 3 variants of mech to sell" - quirks exist in part because its like bureaucracy, it self perpetuates and isn't necessary to this extent where you have reams of quirks. I don't mind a quirk or two just to give flavour to a variant

The original reason for quirks was a slighly difference or unique attribute such as "Jagermech has a Garret d2j targeting so it got +# to AAA fire" It gave them more flavour. Now its just another thing for min-maxing for the metawarrior.

[xCico]

IS mechs should get more velocity on autocannons and ppcs and erppcs, you remember thunderbolts with insane erppc velocity just murdering clan mechs in CW? And that would change game a bit out of this laser ****, shooting ppcs and hitting target at 700-800 meters is real skill, everyone can hit target with lasers, even at 1000m. Game is so boring with lasers.

[Jonathan Paine]

Could we get rid of weapon modules that encourage boating ? Having a module provide the same bonus to a dozen weapons as to a single weapon is game breaking in itself.

[sycocys]

Jonathan Paine, on 18 October 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Could we get rid of weapon modules that encourage boating ? Having a module provide the same bonus to a dozen weapons as to a single weapon is game breaking in itself.

I never really understood the module system in the first place. Kind of on the non-weapons ones but they weren't really well thought out there either.

Could be replaced with modules that set your weapons/sensor/engine and so forth manufacturer with buffs and debuffs. All general stuff with far less effects attached, mostly for personal flavor with minor changes.

[Sjorpha]

Jonathan Paine, on 18 October 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:

Could we get rid of weapon modules that encourage boating ? Having a module provide the same bonus to a dozen weapons as to a single weapon is game breaking in itself.

I personally think the module effect should be divided by # of weapons. So for example a medium laser range module on a mech with 5 medium lasers would increase range by 10/5 = 2%.

[sycocys]

Sjorpha, on 18 October 2015 - 10:46 AM, said:

I personally think the module effect should be divided by # of weapons. So for example a medium laser range module on a mech with 5 medium lasers would increase range by 10/5 = 2%.

That would help.

[Livewyr]

Hell yes. Quirks should stay gone. Holy mother****ing **** the quirks should stay gone.

Balance the techs across the board. (40% Er Laser max range nerf is a good start.)

Here is why:
1: With Tech remaining imbalanced, not fun to play as IS against clan.
2: WIth creating "quirk balance," you're not actually creating balance, you're just locking mechs into place as to what they use.

I won't play on the Live server anymore after playing the PTS, and even if I did, I still wouldn't play IS on the live server because I don't want to be forced to use a LL stalker, MPL, TDR, etc.. It's so dumb. And playing anything else loses wholesale.

Balance the techs. (ER doesn't have to be purely better, it just has to be better in one area, and worse in another. That way the regular tech isn't entirely outmoded when the IS ERML and IS ERSLs arrive.)

Giving lasers a blanket difficulty check (not playing Candy Crush with them) also goes a long long way.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Livewyr, on 18 October 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

Hell yes. Quirks should stay gone. Holy mother****ing **** the quirks should stay gone.

Balance the techs across the board. (40% Er Laser max range nerf is a good start.)

Here is why:
1: With Tech remaining imbalanced, not fun to play as IS against clan.
2: WIth creating "quirk balance," you're not actually creating balance, you're just locking mechs into place as to what they use.

I won't play on the Live server anymore after playing the PTS, and even if I did, I still wouldn't play IS on the live server because I don't want to be forced to use a LL stalker, MPL, TDR, etc.. It's so dumb. And playing anything else loses wholesale.

Balance the techs. (ER doesn't have to be purely better, it just has to be better in one area, and worse in another. That way the regular tech isn't entirely outmoded when the IS ERML and IS ERSLs arrive.)

Giving lasers a blanket difficulty check (not playing Candy Crush with them) also goes a long long way.

There are alot of IS mechs you can use in CW that are perfectly viable. Take the Hunchback 4G-4H-4P-4SP for example. All of them are competitive and excellent short range brawling mechs because of the quirks on them. Are they good for long range? No. But at least the Hunchback can kick ass in its intended role, because thats what the current quirk system does. It makes IS mechs competitive when otherwise they wouldent be. The system isnt perfect, but it needs to remain in place and PGI just has to keep up with incremental changes and dial down some of the no brainer offenders. Not throw in the towel like your proposing.