75 replies to this topic

[Xoco]

Not on PTS, but I am inclined to think that this change would be a boon to a scout.

Previously, it is possible for scouts to get cored or 1shotted by laser boats from outside of sensor range. That means that any attempt to scout usually means you die.

Now as long as I am outside of the sensor range, it will be a good deal more difficult to get instagibbed--although I still won't be able to paint the enemies on my team's radar either. (I could always use VOIP to call out their position). I think it will make a whole lot of difference for scouts.


The problem--no one will scout still. It gives no reward. Most people will still not want to do it because you are spending time giving your allies c-bill, while you get absolutely nothing.

[BigBenn]

DieGruneMorder, on 14 October 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

So a laser that is fired at a target that is not locked on will receive less damage?? Im sorry, but this has been my favorite game for years now, and I want to be positive, but this is DUMB AS HELL. It doesnt even make any sense at all. Am I supposed to believe that because a reticle isnt visually surrounding the mech, the lasers i have equipped are going to downtune themselves because im breaking the law or something. Lasers fire ....in a straight line....they may lose SOME intensity with distance...and then they hit their target....boom...thats it!!! So you're running and gunning with a light or medium, you shoot to the left at a flanking mech...no target lock....sorry dude, lasers are just less effective. This is THE DUMBEST NERF EVER!! Even worse than the hover-jets that do almost nothing!!! WTF PGI??!! You just further buffed LURMS and PEEPS...sounds like lots of fun...

Another fine example of someone who lost their binky....

First, the settings are for testing. It isnt in stone. Let them test it. The only thing it does is give ballistics a boost in damage at longer range vs lasers. That is it. You wont notice a difference otherwise. Now relax and go rant on something important and real stress worthy.

[sycocys]

That 1-2 erLL scout will actually have some balance in its favor actually.

It both has the additional sensor range to target and get its weapons working better at longer ranges + it can share that info back to its team to get LRMs or people moving in on them.

No doubts that with the incoming info tech focus that the rewards system will also be updated to make scouting a much more rewarding role as well. There needed to be a way to make it an actual role before it would have been useful to add much in additional rewards for it anyhow.

[Maelstrum]

If it helps players to start targeting more and new players to learn to do it, I'm all for it.

[l33tworks]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 14 October 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

The technobabble for this one is easier than most.

Lasers rely on focusing lenses. Atmospheric distortions, lens alignment, etc., all contribute to a laser not being properly focused on the point of impact, thereby lessening the damage transfer. A target lock gives the lenses a corrected range at which to set the focus, compensating for all the variables and allowing for improved damage transfer.

Yea I agree for lasers it makes sense. But lasers the only thing where this makes sense. I can see it working in game for lasers only. If they ever make bullets like this it would be a joke. A bullet doesn't care whether something is targeted or not.

[Koniving]

DieGruneMorder, on 14 October 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

So a laser that is fired at a target that is not locked on will receive less damage??

If this helps, I think there's supposed to be a very bad take on the lore jabbed into here.

The principle difference between ER Lasers and regular Lasers is that the beam is focused tighter so that it isn't as likely to dissipate over range. They could be drawing the target thing from there.

Beyond that, the reason for Clan's superior range on almost all weapon systems is a combination of the pilot's abilities (thus 3/4 rather than 4/5 as native base or average skills [with lower numbers being better]), and the superiority of the mech's battle computer. That is before even getting into the targeting computers doing even better accuracy. This is the only reason Clan ACs have better range than IS ACs, better machines with better accuracy -- which means absolutely nothing in this game. (To note: Any AC is written as they can easily fire out to over 2,000 kilometers, over a thousand before losing much kinetic energy, but the likelihood of hitting "something as small and as fast as a Battlemech is slim to none beyond the stated optimum ranges." Note that the MWO Hunchback is about as tall as an Atlas is supposed to be. (13.6 meters; the executioner, tallest mech in BT as of 3060 something... is only 14.4 meters. The Centurion in MWO up to the cockpit not counting its head-fin is 14.7 meters and the Atlas in MWO is 17.6...)

As you can imagine it would be a lot harder to hit mechs if they ranged from 8 to 14.4 meters tall. (The Commando is 9.7 meters. One of the few accurately sized mechs; being a light didn't entitle you to being small. Just like being a heavy didn't entitle you to being huge. Catapults are notoriously shorter than Commandos (Edit: The Stunt Leg design, not the Stilt Leg design. The two have a huge size difference, however the armor is more 'spread' over the size of the mech so in a realistic simulator concentrating fire in one spot will do more to the stilt leg than the smaller stunt leg, so despite same armor and weight the stilt leg is fragile, but can shoot over things easier). It is generally true that more armored mechs are bigger, but not every 70 ton assault mech could carry 434 (218) armor, for example some Warhammers only carried 320 (160) armor).
-------------
That said..
I do not believe that the target lock + reduction of max range was necessary. Reduction of max range from 2x to 2x-40% is more than sufficient. This prevents the extreme sniping while still allowing Clan lasers to outclass IS lasers in range any day of the week.

If mass laser boating is that much of a problem, it's time to stop ignoring the threshold issue. An increasing threshold per heatsink is a huge problem because Clans can fit more than the IS, especially in the upcoming Battlemechs. This means more threshold, more max heat, etc.

Edited by Koniving, 15 October 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 15 October 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

I
That said..
I do not believe that the target lock + reduction of max range was necessary. Reduction of max range from 2x to 2x-40% is more than sufficient. This prevents the extreme sniping while still allowing Clan lasers to outclass IS lasers in range any day of the week.

If mass laser boating is that much of a problem, it's time to stop ignoring the threshold issue. An increasing threshold per heatsink is a huge problem because Clans can fit more than the IS, especially in the upcoming Battlemechs. This means more threshold, more max heat, etc.

The range reduction is a Clan (technically, Clan + all ER laser) nerf. The target lock/damage falloff applies to everyone, not just clans. They then address completely different issues.

The damage falloff feature's purpose is twofold. First, it acts as a nerf to lasers on heavies and assaults - those who have limited sensor range and cannot garauntee being able to lock targets at long range. Second, it encourages target locking, makes it important, and thus makes infowar important overall. Who cares if lights can detect enemies further away when mk1 eyeballs do the job just find and your Timberwolf can cut someone in half at extreme range anyways?

Now, again, I'm not sold on the damage falloff without lock as being a good mechanic, but it's manageable. Way better is zero weapon convergence without lock - simply have weapons converge at distance=target range. No lock? Weapons straight fire.

Interestingly, this is the first time PGI has tried decreasing heat cap and increasing dissipation. It works pretty well on the test server, and I hope they continue with it.

Xoco, on 15 October 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

Not on PTS, but I am inclined to think that this change would be a boon to a scout.

Previously, it is possible for scouts to get cored or 1shotted by laser boats from outside of sensor range. That means that any attempt to scout usually means you die.

Now as long as I am outside of the sensor range, it will be a good deal more difficult to get instagibbed--although I still won't be able to paint the enemies on my team's radar either. (I could always use VOIP to call out their position). I think it will make a whole lot of difference for scouts.

Note that your light has roughly twice the sensor range as an assault. You can target him while he cannot target you.

[Koniving]

Wintersdark, on 15 October 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

Interestingly, this is the first time PGI has tried decreasing heat cap and increasing dissipation. It works pretty well on the test server, and I hope they continue with it.

Been begging for that for 3 damn years.

Sadly all I saw in the notes was "Heatsink changes." No real details.

Would have praised the threshold change had I seen that. (I will be getting on PTS later today.) Figured they just ignored it.

Wintersdark, on 15 October 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

Note that your light has roughly twice the sensor range as an assault. You can target him while he cannot target you.

Seems to be an attempt to make info warfare mean something -- consider this.

Assault mech versus light... Light clearly outclasses in ranged firepower with laser weapons. Advantage light.

Assault mech and slow light (URBIE!) versus fast long range light -- assault mech is now able to provide laser-based fire support at full range and damage, pinging off of the slow support light's sensors! Advantage assault mech / light mech team.

Edited by Koniving, 15 October 2015 - 06:42 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 15 October 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Been begging for that for 3 damn years.

Sadly all I saw in the notes was "Heatsink changes." No real details.

Would have praised the threshold change had I seen that. (I will be getting on PTS later today.) Figured they just ignored it.

It's in the DHS changes stats on the notes:

Clan DHS: 1.2 Capacity (was 1.4), 1.5 Dissipation (was 1.4). Only Clans had their capacity reduced, but I'm still ecstatic that they've even experimented with it, so I'll take what I can get.

Quote

Seems to be an attempt to make info warfare mean something -- consider this.

Assault mech versus light... Light clearly outclasses in ranged firepower with laser weapons. Advantage light.

Assault mech and slow light (URBIE!) versus fast long range light -- assault mech is now able to provide laser-based fire support at full range and damage, pinging off of the slow support light's sensors! Advantage assault mech / light mech team.

Yeah, I ran my Urbie to good effect last night, as well as Sarah's Jenner with NARC.

The infowar component of battles is quite important now. Everyone brings some LRM's, so dominating the early phase of the match is dependent on having good targeting data.

[Koniving]

Posted in the new player thread: An attempted explanation... as well as a couple of math examples.

Koniving, on 15 October 2015 - 06:43 AM, said:

It is not yet in the game. Thus no explanation in game.

Will edit this with the full explanation.

Okay, so the game currently has a huge issue with instantaneous convergence, pinpoint damage, front loaded damage, etc. This is made even worse by Clan Omni (not Battle) mech customization on hardpoints. Stack energy weapons, point at something, hold on target and watch it disintegrate.
------------
PGI's doing a number of things to address this because server controlled delayed convergence is unfair to those with lag (1 second delay? Well with a ping of over 300m/s, that 1 second delay + mechs aren't where they appear + lots of things = impossible to hit anything, lasers flying in all sorts of directions and bullets flying into the sky).

For the first, I must explain the current max range rule. The max range rule as of right now is: "Optimum stated range * 2" for most weapons.

Example: Inner Sphere medium laser stated optimum range 270 meters.

270 meters times 2 = 540 meters max dead range (0 damage). Anything less, you do damage.

Clan ER medium laser stated optimum range: 405 meters.

405 meters times 2 = 810 meters max dead range (0 damage). Anything less, you do damage.

IS large pulse laser stated optimum range 365 meters.

365 meters times 2 = 730meters max dead range (0 damage). Anything less, you do damage.

Clan large pulse laser stated optimum range: 600 meters.

600 meters times 2 = 1200 meters max dead range (0 damage). Anything less, you do damage.

There are exceptions (LBX, Gauss, MGs, Flamers, all missiles). Thus the first change we are seeing is the new rule for Clan lasers as follows: Optimum stated range times 2 - 40%. Or optimum stated range times 1.2 = max. This still clearly outclasses IS lasers but still gives them some kind of chance, as your damages will stop altogether at about the same range. Clan lasers will definitely be hitting harder and much farther for full damage still as they always had. It just won't be so unfair.

Example: Inner Sphere medium laser stated optimum range 270 meters.

270 meters times 2 = 540 meters max dead range (0 damage). Anything less, you do damage.

Clan ER medium laser stated optimum range: 405 meters.

405 meters times 2-40% = 486 meters max dead range (0 damage). Anything less, you do damage.

IS large pulse laser stated optimum range 365 meters.

365 meters times 2 = 730meters max dead range (0 damage). Anything less, you do damage.

Clan large pulse laser stated optimum range: 600 meters.

600 meters times 2 - 40% = 720 meters max dead range (0 damage). Anything less, you do damage.

Remember that the -40% is an adjustable placeholder being tested.

The IS ML currently does 5 damage at 270. At the Clan's 405 meters, the IS ML does 2.5 damage.
The Clan ER ML does 7 damage at 405 meters. (IS ML is 1 ton, 2.5 damage at 405 meters. Clan ER ML is 1 ton, 7 damage at 405 meters.)
This is all current. What changes is the 600+ meter 3+ damage the ER ML does for Clan mechs.

Thus upcoming, Clan ER ML 3.111(repeating) damage at 450 meters, against IS ML 1.666666666666667(rounded) damage at 450 meters. However Clan damage stops Dead at 486 meters, and IS is still doing 0.5555555555555556 at 510 meters (and 0 at 540).

Meaning that IS lasers are pathetically weak, but they still do something farther than Clans and their all powerful stuff. This rule applies to CLAN lasers only.

(Makes me wonder what they will do for the overpowered pinpoint nature of IS ACs....IS has the only instant kill on ANY mech weapon setup in the game.)
------------
In order to explain the second, I must first mention that instead of universal stats for all mech sensors, all mechs will be unique to some degree in the range of their sensors. Assault mechs will have the lowest, and light mechs will have the highest.

Now this said...
The real detail I know is you will not do full damage unless you can target "lock" the enemy mech. (Not sure if there's a lock on thing going on or what.... this does make slight sense considering that ECM jams many spectrums... radio, television, broadband, communication, etc. waves are all light... as are lasers. Since ECM is going to delay locks, this means possibly disrupting lasers unless attuned to their frequency; yes this means ECM mechs will have a 'brief' damage shield against laser weaponry until you can get that lock).

It basically means the "Peekaboo" bullcrap that people are doing with lasers won't work quite as well without a scout keeping the enemy marked. This also makes the field more fair for lighter, easier to kill mechs. Lets face it the mentality for most is that lights are worthless and mediums too easy to kill. This puts the advantage in their favor as their sensors are superior.

That said:

At range with identical ER Large Laser weapons, the light has the advantage over the assault mech. Light can target and lock. Assault mech cannot. Therefore, advantage light with full damage for laser weapons.

If assault mech has the support of a light mech -- say an urban mech, slow, lumbering, meant to support bigger things -- then it too can fight at the same ranges as the enemy light that has been harassing him. Provided the simple caveat that the supporting light mech can see and therefore mark the target.

This seems to be an attempt to make information warfare a little more significant.

The second rule about target "locks" is true for BOTH sides.

-------------

I hope this explains it.

Edit:
My values were taken assuming that 40% was taken from the totals.

Turns out 40% is taken from just the max range half.

Viken, on 15 October 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The 40% was from the Max Distance compared to the Optimal Distance, not the Overall Distance.

So, instead of a C-ERML going from 810 to 486 as listed above, it's 405 (Optimal) + (Old Max[810] * .6) 243 = 648 Max Distance. It still has the original optimal of 405.

This is as it was explained by Phil (Sean Lang) last night on his stream while on the PTR. Optimal ranges are not changing, but max range is no longer Optimal x2. Still a nerf, but not QUITE as bad as believed.

http://mwomercs.com/...harts-for-pts2/

Edited by Koniving, 16 October 2015 - 04:32 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Xetelian, on 14 October 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

Wait...it wasn't already?

I only have 2 mouse buttons, left click to target and right click to fire EVERYTHING. Nothing else is needed in this particular game.

Where did you Map your "O" button... I bet that one gets a lot of use too.

[Almond Brown]

Xetelian, on 14 October 2015 - 08:49 PM, said:

I'm not fond of the change and while I know its a video game and needs balancing in various places it doesn't make logical sense that you can fire a laser 100m more if you target your target.

Nor does it make any sense how a Mech with a AC20 in its Right Arm can be supplied with ammo from its Left Leg or Left arm. Each shell weights around 250lbs ffs. Imagine the lifting gear that would be needed for that to be really a thing?

Oh right, it is a Video game. Based on Giant BattleMechs, a 1K years into the future, fighting on planets in a place called the Inner Sphere. I am seeing a trend here I think. LOL!

[Almond Brown]

DieGruneMorder, on 14 October 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

You make a decent point, but this is just a silly annoyance that makes little to no scientific sense.

Well then, when pressing a Key on your keyboard becomes an annoyance in a Video game, it is likely time to just move on. Perhaps to a game that uses "Voice Recognition" to do all the work fro you.

[Almond Brown]

Merit Lef, on 14 October 2015 - 09:52 PM, said:

Press the "R" key.

Dude. If it ain't Mouse 1 or Mouse 2 buttons then it is an "annoyance" and obviously hinders "good mouse" play. Come on man.

"Press what? That ain't even on the Mouse dude." LOL!

[ShinVector]

Did anyone here actually try public test ?

The I saw seems to kinda different from what was actually stated on the patch info...

Was in a Locust with medium lasers and range module...
Without lock... Ideal Range was something like 178M..
With target lock... It was 297M only when are pointing at your target.

While people keep talking about Max Range... The bigger issue is IS Laser ideal range gets nerfed too... ????

IS Lights needed this nerf.. LOL..



Edit:

Quote

Lasers will not do full damage when striking a ‘Mech that is not target-locked from a range greater than 60% of the Laser’s Optimal Range.

Why NOT just say Laser range NERFED without target lock ??
Thats all there really is to say... No need to mention the damage nonsense... Of course damage after optimal is nerfed laser range, goes down. We know that already.

Edited by ShinVector, 15 October 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[DuncanMechLeod]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 14 October 2015 - 07:27 PM, said:

The technobabble for this one is easier than most.

Lasers rely on focusing lenses. Atmospheric distortions, lens alignment, etc., all contribute to a laser not being properly focused on the point of impact, thereby lessening the damage transfer. A target lock gives the lenses a corrected range at which to set the focus, compensating for all the variables and allowing for improved damage transfer.

OUCH

i still have to look about what this fuss is about and if this is already live,

BUT NO

a laser has not to be focused to a target, since after the last "lense" the beam is already "focused" and

stays coherent in every range of target.

https://en.wikipedia...ollimated_light

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser

"Spatial coherence also allows a laser beam to stay narrow over great distances (collimation), enabling applications such as laser pointers."

Edited by DuncanMechLeod, 15 October 2015 - 08:30 AM.

[ChapeL]

I am surprised at just how resistant people are to the simple idea of pressing R to target something ... anyway carry on.

[Firelizard]

DuncanMechLeod, on 15 October 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

OUCH

i still have to look about what this fuss is about and if this is already live,

BUT NO

a laser has not to be focused to a target, since after the last "lense" the beam is already "focused" and

stays coherent in every range of target.

https://en.wikipedia...ollimated_light

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser

"[color=#252525]Spatial coherence also allows a laser beam to stay narrow over great distances ([/color]collimation[color=#252525]), enabling applications such as [/color]laser pointers[color=#252525]."[/color]

Aah, no. As distance changes, focus needs to be adjusted to keep the beam at a point on the target for maximum transference of energy. I speak from practical experience, being one of those crazies that owns a Class-4 laser and frequently uses it to burn things for giggles.

Edited by Firelizard, 15 October 2015 - 08:39 AM.

[DuncanMechLeod]

Firelizard, on 15 October 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

Aah, no. As distance changes, focus needs to be adjusted to keep the beam at a point on the target for maximum transference of energy. I speak from practical experience, being one of those crazies that owns a Class-4 laser and frequently uses it to burn things for giggles.

no offense to your hobbies, but lasersystems you have ripped off of an old ps4 and pimped for your giggles,

qualifies not for true coherent lasersystems, which could be used as real weapons.

and are, like this baby, up to 50 kW :

https://en.wikipedia...tem#Derivatives

Edited by DuncanMechLeod, 15 October 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Malagant]

Galenit, on 15 October 2015 - 03:32 AM, said:

From another topic about real lasers used in lab.
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4764399

The link inside the quote shows you, how much equipment you need to adjust a laser for research in a static inviromet in a cleam room with a lasertable that compensates tremors.

Your magic space laser dont work in our world.

So you are telling me that no damage will be done if I insert an obstruction to the beam before the intended "focal point" to the obstruction? Lasers are no better than a magnifying glass starting a campfire using the sun? Got it...