367 replies to this topic

[STEF_]

PharmEcis, on 21 October 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

The bottom line is teamwork is always OP. Couple 12 man teamwork with 12 "good" players and then mech choice no longer matters as much.

Teamwork in 12 premade is OP, of course.
So why should PGI let them have the work far easier than before?
Now a 12 premade can have 12 mechs with same speed and loadout, while it wasn't possible with 3/3/3/3.

Or many others crazy things like 12 ebon, or thunders, dire/cheetah.

So, a strong buff to premades, imo.

It doesn't make sense.


BMMU itself said the new system is plain stupid. And still there are guys claiming is good, and defend pgi choice

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 21 October 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 20 October 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

One of the big things people don't get about organized groups is not just synergy but synchronicity. A 12man that's rolling over 100 kph as a group will hit another team like a piranha swarm. Different mech speeds mean different arrival times, or even different reaction times and reposition times if your fast mechs throttle to match their fatties.

A Murder of Crows is a typically effective both by the op nature of Scrows and by the uniformity of their movement in the field.

If you're going to run a 12man in group queue that is more or less what you have to do in the new system. You can't run for fun now - you're hamstrung out of the gate by the assumption you're rolling full tryhard because you're more than 2 people. So you have to run full tryhard or you're getting double-nerfed.

People who wanted to see less assault mechs have basically been asking for this thinking it will solve everything.


That's why the system is so biased against Assaults - just like CW.


The reality is that most proper pre-mades don't really need or even want to drag along 3x DWFs all of the time - the reason they do are either having a few pilots who enjoy that or because it is your primary insurance policy if your 12 man runs into another proper 12 man with 3x DWFs. (*10 to 12 mans)

These new changes remove that from the equation, and just force everyone into speed mode.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 October 2015 - 09:43 AM.

[PharmEcis]

Stefka Kerensky, on 21 October 2015 - 09:40 AM, said:

BMMU itself said the new system is plain stupid. And still there are guys claiming is good, and defend pgi choice

Don't quote incorrectly. No one in BMMU said it was plain stupid. In fact, most of us enjoy this change. However we do see issues with the implementation that we think can be rectified with a simple change to restrict the same number of chassis.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Davers, on 21 October 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

In the end, that is the problem. Big groups= big teamwork. Smaller groups= smaller teamwork.

Usually true. Above tier 5 at least

The problem is, the new system brings new possibilities for big groups that small groups can't have. Big groups can now boat mechs. Small still can't, because they have no chance to predict what mechs will be taken by other groups in their team.
It's not even about stormcow's capabilities. It's about having a team that can move at 106km/h. Or other large speed really. Or having 8 lights that can deliver massive alphas to the enemy and be gone in a second. Managing such group is much, much, MUCH easier than managing a mixed group. If we have a match between two 12-mans, the one with mixed composition need to be a lot better to have a chance to win. The uniform group have the easy mode.
Need to wait for the fatties to join? Not anymore.
Need to slow down for the group not too stretch when moving? Not anymore.
Need to watch your back? Not at that speed, not really.
Repositioning an entire team? Easy peasy.
Etc.
There are tons of tiny little issues related to the fact that a team is composed of varying mechs with varying speeds. All those issues are now nonexistent if you boat mechs in a 12 man.

You can boat mechs now when in a big group, so you need to boat mechs now when in big group. Without boating you'll be limiting your own potential, you will resign to tackling problems that could be automatically solved before the battle started. No way around it. It's the same reason why we boat weapons. Yes, you can play good in a mech with 3 different weapon systems, only with the same effort you could do great in a mech with 1 weapon system. Same with mechs. You won't boat mechs, congrats, but be ready to loose againt teams that aren't actually better than you, they just have it easier.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 21 October 2015 - 10:06 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 21 October 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Usually true. Above tier 5 at least

The problem is, the new system brings new possibilities for big groups that small groups can't have. Big groups can now boat mechs. Small still can't, because they have no chance to predict what mechs will be taken by other groups in their team.
It's not even about stormcow's capabilities. It's about having a team that can move at 106km/h. Or other large speed really. Or having 8 lights that can deliver massive alphas to the enemy and be gone in a second. Managing such group is much, much, MUCH easier than managing a mixed group. If we have a match between two 12-mans, the one with mixed composition need to be a lot better to have a chance to win. The uniform group have the easy mode.
Need to wait for the fatties to join? Not anymore.
Need to slow down for the group not too stretch when moving? Not anymore.
Need to watch your back? Not at that speed, not really.
Repositioning an entire team? Easy peasy.
Etc.
There are tons of tiny little issues related to the fact that a team is composed of varying mechs with varying speeds. All those issues are now nonexistent if you boat mechs in a 12 man.

You can boat mechs now when in a big group, so you need to boat mechs now when in big group. Without boating you'll be limiting your own potential, you will resign to tackling problems that could be automatically solved before the battle started. No way around it. It's the same reason why we boat weapons. Yes, you can play good in a mech with 3 different weapon systems, only with the same effort you could do great in a mech with 1 weapon system. Same with mechs. You won't boat mechs, congrats, but be ready to loose againt teams that aren't actually better than you, they just have it easier.

This. Exactly this.

To be honest, the solution is easy as hell. Keep tonnage limits, fine - but impose a 3/3/3/3 limit on group building only. Keep it out of the matchmaker, so it has no effect om queue time. Youd have to increase large group tonnage to say 680-720 for a 12 man. This solves the issue by forcing large groups to not boat mechs.

[STEF_]

Prof RJ Gumby, on 21 October 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

Usually true. Above tier 5 at least

The problem is, the new system brings new possibilities for big groups that small groups can't have.

With 3/3/3/3 a group of 3 could have 3 dires.

Just saying.

Now 3 group:230 tons.

But nope, pgi fan boyz say new system is better

Bravo!
(golf clap)

[PharmEcis]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 08:19 AM, said:

You have ZERO credibility, give it up.
Because of the MINIMAL 10% OP factor of Clan 'mechs the IS has to do AT LEAST 10% MORE damage JUST TO KEEP PACE with the Clan 'mechs, which also means that the IS pilot has to make LESS mistakes than the Clan 'mech.

snip

blah blah blah blah blah more blah blah blah, clans are op, blah blah blah...

PharmEcis, on 21 October 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

You've been called out. Form up and let us test shall we? Words mean nothing, let us settle this on the field of battle.

Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is? I am.

*edit*

How about we put $100 each in on the match. Total amount donated to a charity of the winner's choice.

How about it? You sure went quite quiet after I asked you to put up or shut up...

[VorpalAnvil]

So, I've got an easy solution here; All the Tier 1 and 2 players who normally do group queue should start dropping exclusively in the solo queue where all the Tier 5 terribads who rail against teams and meta drop. You know, the players who begged for this crap in the first place? Inside of 72 hours they will be flooding the forums to get their own separate solo queue away from competent players who "are ruining this game". I guess it's not really a solution but the QQing in my estimation would totally be worth it. One good troll deserves another...

[Dimento Graven]

PharmEcis, on 21 October 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

How about it? You sure went quite quiet after I asked you to put up or shut up...

So, you're saying that your BMMU guys in IS 'mechs will beat me and ANY 11 other pilots in Clan 'mechs?

That's what you're insisting on saying?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 October 2015 - 11:59 AM.

[cSand]

VorpalAnvil, on 21 October 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

So, I've got an easy solution here; All the Tier 1 and 2 players who normally do group queue should start dropping exclusively in the solo queue where all the Tier 5 terribads who rail against teams and meta drop. You know, the players who begged for this crap in the first place? Inside of 72 hours they will be flooding the forums to get their own separate solo queue away from competent players who "are ruining this game". I guess it's not really a solution but the QQing in my estimation would totally be worth it. One good troll deserves another...

you know players of all tiers exist in the solo queue right

and also, most of the people complaining aren't new players

[VorpalAnvil]

TWIAFU, on 21 October 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

I know you did Stefka and just wanted to add some first impressions, some very early first impression based on actual experiences.

We ALL can agree, balance in MWO is going to be and will forever be a *****. This MIGHT work, of course might not. To early to tell how it will play out, but I do think you are on the money with how this will play out.

This early and how I like to play in group, sometimes more casual, sometimes not, this change, so far, does not support a more casual approach to group play - that is bad for everyone.

Unless I want to play hardcore in a group - and sometimes I do want to - my options are;

Solo - only good for warming up before group drops.
CW - while I still like, patiently waiting for Part III.

Again, this early after the patch, some of my source of fun, casual, non-hardcore group drops, are removed as an option unless I conform to meta.

Who knows, maybe after the rebalance, the Murder of Crows won't be an issue as meta is drastically changing.

Maybe the final picture is what we are missing by only getting to see small parts.

Based on the growing list of PGI failures, in what freaking alternate dimension do you believe that they can properly balance this game? History: learn that ****.

[pwnface]

PharmEcis, on 21 October 2015 - 07:35 AM, said:

Grab 12 players and mechs of your choice and we'll grab 12 and run IS and we'll see what the outcome is. Clan mechs are NOT OP.

The bottom line is teamwork is always OP. Couple 12 man teamwork with 12 "good" players and then mech choice no longer matters as much.

I don't think playing 12v12 is going to prove anything besides which team has better pilots. Just because you can beat a 12 clan team with 12 IS mechs it doesn't prove anything in regards to clan vs IS balance. I do believe certain clan chassis do give an advantage over anything IS is able to field, but the margin is not anywhere near 20% as Dimento stated. Certain clan chassis may have a 5-10% advantage compared to the strongest IS builds. Player skill still largely matters much more than the mechs.

Mystere, on 21 October 2015 - 07:36 AM, said:

CW is proof that facing 12 Firestarters (or any 12 lights for that matter) is not an issue for a team that can shoot and does not panic. Even PUG teams were able to deal with them.

I find this to be blatantly untrue. There is a huge difference between a group of disorganized 12 lights trying to rush objectives and a coordinated team using 12 lights to kill the enemy team. If a team can shoot well AND can set up in a reasonable formation with enough space to get free hits on lights as they approach THEN they can deal with them. PUG teams stand no chance, even organized 12 mans would lose to it constantly, our CW track record (in beta 1) speaks for itself.

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

So, you're saying that your BMMU guys in IS 'mechs will beat me and ANY 11 other pilots in Clan 'mechs?

That's what you're insisting on saying?

I think he's just trying to call you out since you said he has no credibility. To be fair, I think BMMU would beat RRB pretty easily based on the skills of the players in each unit. It's kind of irrelevant to the argument of IS vs Clan balance though.

[VorpalAnvil]

cSand, on 21 October 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

you know players of all tiers exist in the solo queue right

and also, most of the people complaining aren't new players

I am aware, yes. But the solo queue does have a much larger percentage of low skill players who play solo exclusively, hate teams, and many of those calling for these changes are veteran terribads who blame anything but themselves for why they don't win. Such as Clams, meta, tryhards, haxxorrs etc...

[TWIAFU]

VorpalAnvil, on 21 October 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

Based on the growing list of PGI failures, in what freaking alternate dimension do you believe that they can properly balance this game? History: learn that ****.

And that is why I clearly stated that it will and forever be a ***** to balance.

[PharmEcis]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

So, you're saying that your BMMU guys in IS 'mechs will beat me and ANY 11 other pilots in Clan 'mechs?

That's what you're insisting on saying?

Pull 12 of your fellow unit members, would only be fair quaiff?

What I am saying is that IS vs Clan is not the key decision factor like you make it out to be. Pilot skill is what matters most.

[Dimento Graven]

pwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

...

I think he's just trying to call you out since you said he has no credibility. To be fair, I think BMMU would beat RRB pretty easily based on the skills of the players in each unit. It's kind of irrelevant to the argument of IS vs Clan balance though.

Well, let's keep in mind his statement of

Quote

Clan 'mechs are not OP.

They are in fact OP, that's an acknowledged fact. Clan 'mechs are AT LEAST 10% more powerful in alpha, speed, range, and survivability than their typical IS equivalent.

It's that way primarily because if an IS 'mech equips an XL engine, the Clan 'mech only has to kill ONE side torso, vs. the IS having to kill a cockpit, CT, both legs, OR BOTH side torso's.

Due to the fact that clan weaponry is lighter and takes up less crit space, by AT LEAST 10% (much more in some cases) it allows the Clans to load MORE weapons, MORE heat sinks, MORE ammo.

Due to the fact that Clan double heat sinks are 33% smaller than IS, again, you're looking at more space available for weapons.

Due to the fact that Clan XL's are two crit spaces smaller (not bothering to do the math here), they have that much less of a chance of being crit'd AND allow more space for weapons, heat sinks, and ammo.

There's many more facets to the Clan 'mechs that make them AT LEAST 10% more powerful than their IS equivalent and when those facets are combined in a single 'mech chassis, the IS equivalents are THAT MUCH MORE out classed.

To deny this leaves a person with ZERO credibility.

Now take his follow up statement:

Quote

Grab 12 players and mechs of your choice and we'll grab 12 and run IS and we'll see what the outcome is. Clan mechs are NOT OP.

So, according to him, he and his BMMU team in IS 'mechs can beat down myself and ANY other 11 people in Clan mechs. It wasn't a statement exclusive to the RRB and I wonder how -MS-, NKVA, EmP, or 228 would feel about that.

[Dimento Graven]

PharmEcis, on 21 October 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

...

What I am saying is that IS vs Clan is not the key decision factor like you make it out to be. Pilot skill is what matters most.

Yeah, yeah you thought you'd be a smart ass and try and deflect the discussion away from the OP factor of Clan tech.

So now you admit that Clan tech is actually a factor, you're just disagreeing as the degree of it?

So then your statement of Clan tech NOT being OP was actually untrue?

Given two groups playing with equal skill and tactics, one in Clan tech and one in IS tech, which is more likely to win and why?

[pwnface]

Dimento Graven, on 21 October 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

They are in fact OP, that's an acknowledged fact. Clan 'mechs are AT LEAST 10% more powerful in alpha, speed, range, and survivability than their typical IS equivalent.

It's that way primarily because if an IS 'mech equips an XL engine, the Clan 'mech only has to kill ONE side torso, vs. the IS having to kill a cockpit, CT, both legs, OR BOTH side torso's.

Due to the fact that clan weaponry is lighter and takes up less crit space, by AT LEAST 10% (much more in some cases) it allows the Clans to load MORE weapons, MORE heat sinks, MORE ammo.

Due to the fact that Clan double heat sinks are 33% smaller than IS, again, you're looking at more space available for weapons.

Due to the fact that Clan XL's are two crit spaces smaller (not bothering to do the math here), they have that much less of a chance of being crit'd AND allow more space for weapons, heat sinks, and ammo.

There's many more facets to the Clan 'mechs that make them AT LEAST 10% more powerful than their IS equivalent and when those facets are combined in a single 'mech chassis, the IS equivalents are THAT MUCH MORE out classed.

To deny this leaves a person with ZERO credibility.

Just because you say it's a fact doesn't mean it's a fact. IN FACT, what you are stating is actually an OPINION not a FACT. Clan and IS mechs use a different set of weapons which have different characteristics. IS lasers have shorter beam durations, non-stream autocannons, can run standard engines, can switch engines. Does this mean IS mechs are on par or better than Clan mechs? Certainly not, I think some clan chassis do have significant advantages over IS mechs but that is just my OPINION.

Please don't your spread your own OPINION as FACT.

[Shae Starfyre]

From an outside perspective, skill does play a role in the balance equation and cannot be quantified.

The issue, as I see it, is the perception of that balance or gap in skill causing the focal point to be that which has some concrete aspect.

Skill is not a viable, quantifiable, measure, and as such, we are focused on what can be modified and changed at a more granular level.

After-all, skill is learned, inherent, and sometimes, out of reach of some.

[Dimento Graven]

pwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

Just because you say it's a fact doesn't mean it's a fact. IN FACT, what you are stating is actually an OPINION not a FACT.

Ok where's the "opinion" in the following statements:

Clan XL engines can survive an ST loss, IS XL engines cannot.
Many clan weapons are lighter than their IS equivalents.
Many clan weapons are smaller/require less crit space than their IS equivalents.
Many clan weapons shoot farther than their IS equivalents.
Many clan weapons hit harder than their IS equivalents.
Clan double heat sinks are smaller than IS heat sinks.

You find an 'opinion' in ANY of those statements, if you can...

Quote

Clan and IS mechs use a different set of weapons which have different characteristics. IS lasers have shorter beam durations, non-stream autocannons, can run standard engines, can switch engines. Does this mean IS mechs are on par or better than Clan mechs? Certainly not, I think some clan chassis do have significant advantages over IS mechs but that is just my OPINION.

So you do in fact acknowledge that Clan 'mechs are more powerful than their IS equivalent.

Good to know...

Quote

Please don't your spread your own OPINION as FACT.

I'm spreading facts, the fact that you choose to refuse to expressly acknowledge those facts, doesn't mean my facts aren't.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 21 October 2015 - 01:16 PM.