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"great" Limit Tonnage Idea Pgi


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#261 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 05:56 AM

View PostAphoticus, on 22 October 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

I saw the video on the storm crow crew in patch feedback, and what is interesting about the argument, "Teamwork is Op," being thrown around, is moot by listening to these guys.

The only two tactical decisions made was ball up, and head for center with a casual note here and there, otherwise, they were having side conversations, someone came in towards the end, and it was all, "Hey, come to see the party?" kind of stuff; not to mention, the 'Yea, it's broken comments." Kudos to the guys who revealed the broken nature, by the way.

It was not tactical, it was not teamwork is op, it was straight, 'You all know what to do, have fun." So, yea, Fun is Op (sarcasm).

This bothered me more than anything and will continue to keep me away from the group queue; it needs to be a gritty situation, comms on high alert, and everyone nail biting their way to victory.

I have seen more heated comms in EvE Online during a 30 bomber stealth drop on a lone battleship in null space than this rubbish.


In fairness thats quite typical of BMMU comms a lot of the time. We play together a lot and have been selective with recruiting, so dont always need to talk much to win.

#262 BattleBunny

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:01 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 22 October 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:


In fairness thats quite typical of BMMU comms a lot of the time. We play together a lot and have been selective with recruiting, so dont always need to talk much to win.


But the point made is valid. It wasnt highly tactical 12 men comm chatter and advanced tactics that was needed. "Blob up and go" always worked, but it was harder to pull of with 3/3/3/3 because mechs moved at different speeds. It required coordination. This didnt need much at all. "blob up and go" has been buffed while assaults have become liabilities.

#263 reign

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:09 AM

View PostBattleBunny, on 22 October 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:


But the point made is valid. It wasnt highly tactical 12 men comm chatter and advanced tactics that was needed. "Blob up and go" always worked, but it was harder to pull of with 3/3/3/3 because mechs moved at different speeds. It required coordination. This didnt need much at all. "blob up and go" has been buffed while assaults have become liabilities.



Get together 12 random friends who you regularly do not play with (off your friends list) have them pick their storm crow (or the trial storm crow) and Repeat experiment. Until then I say your point is null.

#264 BattleBunny

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:15 AM

View Postreign, on 22 October 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:

Until then I say your point is null.


I could put in the effort, but its not you I am trying to convince. Its the good people at PGI that I want to see this and understand what is wrong with it. If it would convince them, I will make the video you suggest.

Edited by BattleBunny, 22 October 2015 - 06:20 AM.


#265 Appogee

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:18 AM

View PostStefka Kerensky, on 21 October 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

And there are a lot of players compalining about the new system too.
So what?


A question was asked about what led to the new system.

I answered by explaining what led to the new system.

Don't take it out on me if you don't like what led to the new system.

#266 reign

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:19 AM

View PostBattleBunny, on 22 October 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:


I could put in the effort, but its not you I am trying to convince. Its the good people at PGI that I want to see this and understand what is wrong with it. If it would convince them I would make that video.



It erases all doubts about it. Solidifies your argument and can be submitted then to Russ or whoever and say "Ok I took all the other factors out of this, and your new system does this"

#267 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:23 AM

View Postreign, on 22 October 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:



It erases all doubts about it. Solidifies your argument and can be submitted then to Russ or whoever and say "Ok I took all the other factors out of this, and your new system does this"


If Russ had the foggiest clue how this game actually works, he wouldn't need it proven to him, because its extremely bloody obvious.

#268 reign

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:25 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 22 October 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:


If Russ had the foggiest clue how this game actually works, he wouldn't need it proven to him, because its extremely bloody obvious.

If we submit videos that contain only relevant information (remember SRM issues) and the nova bug (just recently), then the issues get fixed.

#269 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:34 AM

View Postreign, on 22 October 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

If we submit videos that contain only relevant information (remember SRM issues) and the nova bug (just recently), then the issues get fixed.


This isnt a bug. Its an obvious consequence of letting teams boat mechs.

Its a bit like weapons, similar mechs multiply each others effectiveness. With no restrictions, people boated assaults. Now, they cant do that because of tonnage, but they CAN boat heavies. So they do that, because boating > not boating, because ease of use.

#270 Shae Starfyre

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:36 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 22 October 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:


In fairness thats quite typical of BMMU comms a lot of the time. We play together a lot and have been selective with recruiting, so dont always need to talk much to win.


So is meant to nullify the comments "Of this system is broken," and the agreements by others in the video?

I would have expected more, "This is fun," and "Pgi did well," then.

It makes your comment meaningless.... although, it makes perfect sense since they are attempting to break the system, so they are, in essence, free to be jovial and have fun and not have serious comms.

Your point is not meaningless after all; I apologize.

Edited by Aphoticus, 22 October 2015 - 06:41 AM.


#271 prox

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:36 AM

View Postreign, on 22 October 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

If we submit videos that contain only relevant information (remember SRM issues) and the nova bug (just recently), then the issues get fixed.


Except it isn't a bug that needs video evidence.
Once we had nascar with Firestarters forming the top tier front of the blob, that could get 1-shot by a decent Assault pilot if they played too reckless. This flaw got replaced by Cheetahs that don't punish risky play whatsoever. Last patch reduced the last liability for full nascar, namely Assaults. I still fail to see how this meta is better than old poptarting everyone hated.

#272 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:41 AM

View PostAphoticus, on 22 October 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:


So is meant to nullify the comments "Of this system is broken," and the agreements by others in the video?

I would have expected more, "This is fun," and "Pgi did well," then.

It makes your comment meaningless.


No, im one of the people saying its broken in the video. Im just saying we often dont talk much and win, so not to read too much into that specfically.

#273 Shae Starfyre

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:45 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 22 October 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:


No, im one of the people saying its broken in the video. Im just saying we often dont talk much and win, so not to read too much into that specfically.


Do you think if you fielded a more rounded group of mechs, that you knew had faults, that comms would be the same?

I mean, I really thought you guys were doing us a service, but if your comms are always like that, it trivialized a lot, and makes the issue even larger than it is.

Edited by Aphoticus, 22 October 2015 - 06:58 AM.


#274 Tombstoner

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:53 AM

View PostBattleBunny, on 22 October 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:


You are missing the point. This wasnt about the fact the 12 men team won. offcource a good group can beat smaller groups. Its about the way it was won. Having a big group all move at the same speed is super easy mode. assaults are no longer needed, required,or even helpful. They are not worth their tonnage. Not by a mile.

What you get for the tonnage is a slow moving target thats highly vulnerable out in the open or alone. it's easily flanked and ganked. If PGI put in a max speed limit in place you'd get a far more effective PUG experiance. A group on TS will have its fast mechs wait for the assaults.... go figure... a pug will scatter, contact the opfor early, get full alphas and die. at that point your team is at a great disadvantage. tonnage limits does nothing to fix this behavior.

I say add speed caps and give a player 4 lives with the same mech. IF you want to change up it need to fit the speed profile.

#275 Dimento Graven

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 07:00 AM

View Postpwnface, on 21 October 2015 - 02:37 PM, said:

So based on this super limited definition that you just made, if anything comes out on top more than 50% of the time it's OP. This is the most ridiculous thing you've said so far and is basically asking for 100% perfect balance, which is an impossibility.
Yeah, that's pretty much anyone's definition of OP. If two different things that are supposed to be "balanced", utilized with the same skill, results in one of those things having a greater chance at success than the other, it's OP.

It's OP/EASY MODE if one thing requires LESS skill, while its opposite requires SUPERIOR skill just be on an even plain.

Pretty much, from the get go, from every post about balance in this game, that's the idea behind the term.

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I don't have to prove anything to tell you that your opinion is not a fact. I'm not arguing that your opinion is correct or incorrect, I'm merely explaining to you, as I would a small grade school child, the difference between an opinion and a fact. It seems you lack the intellectual capacity to understand the difference between these two concepts. I see no reason to continue this discussion if you can't understand the distinction.
As a matter of fact you DO have to prove YOUR statement that Clans ARE NOT OP.

These are your words, though you have waffled since the onset of this discussion.

Given the evidence against such a silly notion, I'm sure you're going to have a very hard time with it. Given that even PGI believes there are balance issues with the Clans, you're going to have a very hard time with it.

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GOOD DAY SIR.
See ya.

#276 TWIAFU

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 07:18 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 22 October 2015 - 04:25 AM, said:


Did your group bring any assault mechs?


Yes.

1-2. Rest was a smattering of light to heavy and even people getting XP. And other teams were fielding them as well.

I admit, I jumped on the hate bandwagon before I even had time to play enough. That was wrong and I was wrong.

And we never ran into one group that was gaming the tonnage for full effect.

Not once.

#277 reign

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 07:22 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 22 October 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:


No, im one of the people saying its broken in the video. Im just saying we often dont talk much and win, so not to read too much into that specfically.



People who play together a lot do not have to say much to win. You know what your team mate is doing.

Also In the patch notes themselves.

\The values of the new Group Tonnage system can be tuned on the live servers without the need for patches or downtime, so we can make quick changes as necessary with minimal fuss. This is an important aspect of this system, as we want it to be able to react to your feedback and metrics as the new system plays out in the wild.|

So I think a video with a random sample playing the same mechs could be submitted and changes made quickly.

But as long as you stick to your 12 man it will get written off.

Edited by reign, 22 October 2015 - 07:23 AM.


#278 Dimento Graven

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 07:36 AM

View PostSolahma, on 21 October 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Well, I was going to respond why your opinion is uninformed considering you don't even know the advantages of:
- Short burn duration
Let's look at those "shorter burn times":

Weapon Damage Burn Time
ER LL 9 1.25
C ER LL 11 1.5

Damage difference: 2
Duration difference: .25

In other words, if both weapons were fired, and the Clan laser was pulled off at the exact moment the IS laser shuts down, unless PGI has put a 2 point burst in that extra .25 seconds, the Clan ER L.laser is STILL doing more damage in the same amount of time.

Weapon Damage Burn Time
IS LPL 11 .67
C LPL 13 1.12

Damage difference: 2
Duration difference: .45

So on and so forth, etc. etc. for all the weapons.

So here's the overall general comparison that is an unarguable FACT:

In general IS weapons while faster and cooler burning, are heavier, have shorter range, are larger, and do less damage than their slightly longer burning, lighter, smaller, longer reaching, and harder hitting clan equivalents.

The advantage to the IS is, if we can load a lot of weapons we will have 'less' heat than a similarly loaded Clan and our lesser damage is delivered a bit more quickly, however due to the weight and size restrictions, we are typically unable to load as many weapons and/or heat sinks as the Clan equivalents can.

FACT: Advantage - Clan.

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- FLD ballistic weapons
Unarguable facts on Clan vs. IS Ballistics:

Unarguable fact, in general Clan ballistics are lighter, smaller, and cooler than their IS equivalents.

Yes, FLD is an advantage for IS, however, the IS requires more weight, more space, and runs hotter than the clan equivalent, that space and weight disadvantage means decisions typically have to be made between ammo, heat sinks and engine size. TYPICALLY: A clan that brings ballistics can bring more of them, and more ammo, and more "other" weapons, and/or more heat sinks.

The bust mode, as each 'burst' hits its target's forward body in torsos produces multiple instances of blast flash and cockpit rattle. The IS 'mech can replicate that with multiple weapons, and if you try and discount the disorienting affects of a shaking cockpit and a stream of near constant blinding flashes, well, we can't discuss anything any further.

FACT: Clans have more ballistics options than the IS, so that a Clan build out can be fine tuned to produce an incredible DPS monster. In other words, while it's possible to design a Clan ballistics build to dish out 2000+ damage in ~2:00 minutes, IT IS NOT currently possible to do the same in an IS build.

FACT: Advantage Clans.

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- Ability to choose engine size
Yes, a slight advantage to the IS. The IS HAS to be able to choose their engine size because they HAVE to be able to trade speed for survivability and/or increased alpha.

Considering some of the monstrous, vomit, boat builds that the Clans can create by swapping out omnipods, I think even THIS isn't balanced. With an IS build, the weapon hard points are what they are. The IS can't change their mech's hard points. They have to have an entire other variant, and if there isn't a variant with the options they want, they are out of luck.

Clans on the other hand, while unable to swap engines, CAN change their 'mech's weapon hard points SIGNIFICANTLY.

In fact, this provides the clans the singular option that any 'chassis that has a variant with an ability the other chassis do not, DOES NOT limit those other chassis from inheriting the ability through an Omnipod purchase.

In other words:
The IS has ECM on a particular Raven variant. ONLY THAT VARIANT supports ECM. The IS can't swap a torso Omnipod from a 3L and put it on a 4X, for example.

The Clan has the Arctic Cheetah and one variant has ECM, that means ALL variants have the potential to have ECM, simply by loading the appropriate Omnipod.

The Clan has a 100 ton assault with jump capability, the Direwolf, which means ANY Direwolf can have jump capability by swapping Omni pods.

The IS does not.

FACT: Clan advantage

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and so on

But, then I realized if you honestly have no idea why those are beneficial characteristics then I really would rather not converse with such a casual about mech balance.
The characteristics you mention ARE beneficial but they are a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way of from making Clans and IS "balanced"...

#279 Almond Brown

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 08:27 AM

View PostDavers, on 21 October 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

But that same freedom of choice allows players to create the unbalanced matches they were complaining about in the first place. Every 2 man group that isn't running a 100 ton and a 75 ton mech is screwing their team out of the tonnage advantage they are SUPPOSED to have over larger groups.

Not that tonnage is a great indicator of strength. There are SO MANY Mechs that perform better than other mechs that are heavier than them.


As noted the point is "CHOICE". With 3/3/3/3 if you had 4 Heavy Pilots, someone had to concede. This way your 4 Heavy Pilots get Mechs. PGI cannot make any system that states "use all the weight provided or else!" Or else what??? You can't drop the Group?

Your selection of the 2-man weight loss issue is presumptuous at best anyways. Without real numbers, who is to say that before the min-max, most 2 man's were not BOTH lights and or always under 175t, thus always leaving those Teams way short.

Any "Team" requires concessions to be made by its Players in order to be at peak. The same is true in MWO.

View PostTLBFestus, on 21 October 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:


Actually, our plan is to saw through the border and let the US drop down into Mexico. If there's time, some of us are thinking of including parts of Quebec.


All of Quebec. Please. ;)

Edited by Almond Brown, 22 October 2015 - 08:41 AM.


#280 Almond Brown

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 08:36 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 22 October 2015 - 06:34 AM, said:


This isnt a bug. Its an obvious consequence of letting teams boat mechs.

Its a bit like weapons, similar mechs multiply each others effectiveness. With no restrictions, people boated assaults. Now, they cant do that because of tonnage, but they CAN boat heavies. So they do that, because boating > not boating, because ease of use.


Let's put 2 and 2 together then. All Assault Teams sucked the FUN out thus the intro of 3/3/3/3. Now, with the new Weight based having ALL heavies "doable" that sucks the FUN out (apparently)

So now that we have our 2 2's, what is the next Logical step and what is currently in the works (BIG PROJECT btw) and has been on the PTS 2x already?

Heads up Heavy Pilots, your time in the Sunshine as the BEST Over-All class, sans Super fast Lights, may be coming to an end. (all conjecture of course but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it is quite likely a duck) :)

Edited by Almond Brown, 22 October 2015 - 08:43 AM.






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